Jump to content
Royal_Flight

Il-10 Sturmovik: Battle of Korea

Recommended Posts

In the spirit of wildly speculative suggestion threads about new and varied theatres, I've been doing some thinking.

The devs have mentioned a few times that they'd be keen to visit the Korean War, and between the first appearance of jets and the late-war props of Bodenplatte, plus the desire of a few people to see more late-war Soviet designs, I figured that Korea might be a good way to bring all these disparate elements together. 

 

My proposal is a two-part approach; divided along the lines of early war/late props and later war/early jets. 

This allows the props to be useful and not just fodder for jets; gives a smoother transition between piston and jet tactics, and captures a sense of the dynamic, early war of movement which gave way to the static latter war of attrition.

 

 

The initial, main release is set in 1950 and maps can be based around the Pusan Perimeter (where RoK and UN forces were pushed back to after the invasion) and the amphibious landings at Incheon which helped to turn the tide. 

 

 

UN/RoK:

North American F-51 Mustang 

Hawker Sea Fury 

Vought F4U-5 Corsair

Douglas B-26 Invader

Gloster Meteor / Lockheed F-80 Shooting Star (premium)

 

DPRK:

Yakovlev Yak-9

Lavochkin La-7 / La-9

Ilyushin Il-10

Tupolev Tu-2

Yakovlev Yak-15 / Yak-17 (premium)

 

 

This planeset should be relatively equally-matched, and is reasonably representative of the main aircraft types and air forces in the first year of the war. 

 

There is a good mix of inline fighters, high-performance radial bruisers that can fight in the air or attack ground targets, naval aircraft flying from carriers, ground attackers, light level bombers and early jets; and flown by the USAF, USMC, Fleet Air Arm, Royal Australian Navy, RAAF and Republic of Korean Air Force, reflecting the multinational nature of the UN coalition. 

The Yak-9, La-7, Il-10, Tu-2, B-26 and Meteor could all fit into late WWII settings as well. 

The La-9 would be more competitive in place of the La-7 though and might be a better opposite number to the Sea Fury. Likewise, the F-80 is a better fighter by 1950 than the more pedestrian Meteor which was mainly a ground-attacker by this point, a role that the F-80 can also cover. The Meteor would allow for another Commonwealth type though. 

So, a toss-up between broader utility or greater effectiveness. 

 

As premiums, the Meteor/F-80 and Yak-15/-17 are interesting theatre-appropriate choices being used by the RAAF and DPRK/ PLAAF forces respectively, but aren't much better performing than the props which won't run the risk of outclassing everything else, and lets the peak of piston-engines shine in their last major engagement.

As far as I'm aware, the Yak-17 is essentially a -15 with tricycle gear, which may be marginally less frustrating to use.

Details on their operational service is hard to come by but I believe both were used by North Korean and Chinese forces. 

 

 

This is all great, but we're still missing the stars of the show. So, to round off the Korean experience, we need two more iconic aircraft which will come as collector planes inspired by the recent release of the 109G-6 and La-5FN. 

 

Of course, the F-86 Sabre for USAF and MiG-15 for DPRK/PLAAF. 

 

These can come out separately a few months after the main release, along with a map from the front lines around the 38th Parallel to the Yalu River - MiG alley. 

 

Why do these two separately when they're so iconic? A few reasons. 

As mentioned above, it stops jets dominating and allows the best props a while at the top of the tree, meaning there will be a chance for a full ecosystem to develop before adding the apex predators at the top. It also eases the transition to the Korean theatre if initially it feels quite familiar to late WWII, and feels like a smoother progression rather than a jump from 1944 tech to near-transonic, swept wing jets. 

These two as premiums are a no-brainer in terms of profit as I can't see anyone not buying them. It also allows people who are only interested in these iconic two to participate in a broader representation of the war and avoids any DCS-style situations where they end up orphaned. It also might work as a gateway to let people give the Korean theatre a go without needing them to buy into a full-scale shift to a new theatre. 

It is also less burdensome to develop piston aircraft first that, in some cases, are based off a lot of existing assets. 

 

 

Obviously there's a lot to come before there's any hope of seeing this, but I think it makes for a reasonably solid framework for a future release. 

Keen to hear thoughts and opinions on any of the above, or suggestions for how to do a Korean release. 

I'm also not an expert on the Korean War so if there's anything I've got wrong or missed, jump in and let me know.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that bringing together late props and early jets would be fantastic.

 

However, there are a few problems. In the popular mindset, Korea is synonymous with the clash of MiG-15s and F-86s. A game would not sell without prominently featuring these two aircraft in the cover art. Therefore, releasing them later as collector planes could sabotage the important initial launch. 

 

Furthermore, the collector MiG-15 and F-86 would be vastly superior to every other aircraft in the game. Selling these later at 2-3 times the price of regular aircraft would undoubtedly attract criticism. This was not a significant problem in Kuban because the rare La-5FN and 109 G-6 were only incremental upgrades to existing aircraft.

 

I would axe at least the Yak-15/17, release the MiG-15 and F-86 as regular planes, and throw in some AI air targets.

Edited by Mitthrawnuruodo
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My rationale for releasing them as collector planes is exactly because they are much better than the other aircraft and it runs a risk that the two would make flying anything else redundant.

The two likely scenarios could be a) everyone spends all their time in F-86/MiG-15 and every Korean mission becomes a non-stop airquake, or b) servers heavily restrict their use leading to people being irritated that they can’t use the aircraft they’ve paid for. 

 

I get the ‘pay-to-win’ concerns but having the superior aircraft sold seperately makes sound economic sense, at least to these devs who are always complaining about profitability.

F-86 and MiG-15 will definitely sell, whereas other types may be less likely to (I’m not sure I’d pay £20 for a Yak-15 and it’s my idea to include it in the first place) so the devs likely won’t bother making content that they don’t feel they’ll make money from even if it’s important to include.

I don’t want another Ju 52 example where it’s not been supported at all because they seemingly don’t think it’s worth it. 

 

Also it allows the Korean release to be done and dusted in one go, a full set and then a pair of collectors and then development can move on. I think trying to stretch it out too long might risk running out of content on the DPRK side at least. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Selling jets separately would make sense game-balance wise, but will sabotage the product publicity-wise. Korean War combat flight sim has to be built around F-86 vs Mig-15, or face WTF reaction from more casual part of customers. What OP proposes would be aimed only at customers least casual about historical aspect.

If anything, "early" Korean War should be sold as separate package, BoM style. Perhaps 3+3 Mig Valley package inclufing jets and 3+3 Posan Permineter adding prop fighters? (of course, we'd need two more planes for that).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The trouble with scenarios like this, is that developers like to issue games where both sides are, more or less, equal. The North Korean air force was, for all intents and purposes, finished after the first few weeks of the conflict. U.N had control of the air over Korea for most of the war. Mustangs, F-80's, F84's, Meteors....etc.. had the sky pretty much to themselves unless they were operating close to the Yalu and came within range of Chinese MiG bases. There were a few Yak vs Mustang encounters early in the war, but that didn't last long.

  I'm very interested in this as a sim subject. But I just don't see it happenig. DCS could have done a nice Korea add on. They have the F-86, the MiG-15 and the Mustang. But they don't finish any idea. They're like a little kid who sees a new toy and leaves the one he's playing with alone. 

   I know we're all just thinking out loud, but this one isn't happening. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rather than adding the F86/MiG-15 and a new map post-release, it might be more reasonable for the devs to make it a second volume (a la Flying Circus) that introduces more new planes and the new map.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Poochnboo said:

The trouble with scenarios like this, is that developers like to issue games where both sides are, more or less, equal. The North Korean air force was, for all intents and purposes, finished after the first few weeks of the conflict. U.N had control of the air over Korea for most of the war. Mustangs, F-80's, F84's, Meteors....etc.. had the sky pretty much to themselves unless they were operating close to the Yalu and came within range of Chinese MiG bases. There were a few Yak vs Mustang encounters early in the war, but that didn't last long.

  I'm very interested in this as a sim subject. But I just don't see it happenig. DCS could have done a nice Korea add on. They have the F-86, the MiG-15 and the Mustang. But they don't finish any idea. They're like a little kid who sees a new toy and leaves the one he's playing with alone. 

   I know we're all just thinking out loud, but this one isn't happening. 

 

Does Il-2 reflect reality? Late war the Allies totally dominated the Luftwaffe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, Milo, but even to the end there was very much a Luftwaffe. Some large air battles took place over Germany as late as April of '45 as they threw the last of their planes into the air. After the first month or so of the Korean War, air battles anywhere but over the Yalu didn't happen. There would be absolutely no historic fact in it at all. I mean, Hell, if you want to do that just wait for the Bodenplatte planeset. Fly Mustangs against Yaks and LaGGS. Maybe some mission builder can do a fake Korean War scenario like they're doing with the Pacific.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 20/04/2018 at 1:06 AM, Poochnboo said:

The trouble with scenarios like this, is that developers like to issue games where both sides are, more or less, equal. The North Korean air force was, for all intents and purposes, finished after the first few weeks of the conflict. U.N had control of the air over Korea for most of the war. Mustangs, F-80's, F84's, Meteors....etc.. had the sky pretty much to themselves unless they were operating close to the Yalu and came within range of Chinese MiG bases. There were a few Yak vs Mustang encounters early in the war, but that didn't last long.

  I'm very interested in this as a sim subject. But I just don't see it happenig. DCS could have done a nice Korea add on. They have the F-86, the MiG-15 and the Mustang. But they don't finish any idea. They're like a little kid who sees a new toy and leaves the one he's playing with alone. 

   I know we're all just thinking out loud, but this one isn't happening. 

 

The thing is though, one of the devs (maybe Han) has suggested he would be interested in doing a Korean War release in the future. 

 

So not that it definitely is happening, but it’s not necessarily definitely not happening either. 

 

Korea seems to have some advantages as well, building on the jet tech that BoBo introduces.

Some of the WWII assets can fit in Korea, like the P-51, Po-2, Pe-2 and basically any of the ground units from either side, and some of the Korean aircraft can find their way into late WWII like A/B-26, Yak-9, La-7, Tu-2, Meteor.

Some of the aircraft can also be modified from existing ones, like the La-5 and Yak-1.

Also, it provides a way to mix up West and East and gives something for the people who want some late-war VVS gear without imposing another Eastern front release on everyone else. 

 

I’m not sure how to get past the air war only meaningfully lasting the first few months of the campaign, but that shouldn’t be a deal-breaker really. There’s enough in there for a singleplayer career, and each MP session is really just a two-hour snapshot of a larger campaign anyway.

People have been replaying the five-month Battle of Britain for seven years on CloD, and even on BoX the Battle of Stalingrad has been raging in one way or avother since the incredibly rudimentary start in 2013.

 

I agree about DCS’s scattershot approach to populating the world with aircraft, but it shines in systems modelling which BoX does not.

I wouldn’t want BoX to push anywhere beyond the 1950s because it wouldn’t be able to do it justice at all, but the Korean War is a good point to draw a line at and fill content up to. Plus, it’s something new and different. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, lots of good points, and actually, I think I agree with just about all of them. I suppose you're right, a two hour session between some Mustangs and Yaks would certainly be fun. And they would have to do an F-82 Twin Mustang. It was used a lot in Korea and I don't think it has ever been done by anyone, yet.

I would be all over this because the Korean air war is a favorite topic of mine. Quite a bit of my library is devoted to it. I spend a lot of time fighting MiGs in my DCS Sabre. It really is a beautiful module.  And by the way..."without imposing another Eastern front release on everyone else." Yes, enough, please.

Edited by Poochnboo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It might be hard for them to do a career mode for Korea to the standard that they've applied to the other maps so far, with the positioning of specific squadrons and the strengths of each side being (mostly) replicated in the sim. If we can't get documents from Japan, getting them from North Korea and China might be more than a little troublesome...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The jets the Join Communist Airforces used were the MiG-15/Mig-15bis. Yak-17UTI was used as a trainer for PLAAF/KPAF; it has no armament. There is still some debate that maybe unit of La-15 were sent by the Soviets but that is still denied by the Russians even after they admitted they sent pilots for combat.

 

Also saying F-86 Sabre pretty much means nothing, there were huge differences between the Sabre variants that saw action in Korea

 

 


F-86A, original variant, conventional stabilizer, most were fitted with the optical gyro sight, the very last few in production had the A-1 radar ranging gunsight

 

F-86E, added all flying tail, a leading to huge improvement in performance in the transonic-supersonic range, from this point onwards all F-86 Sabres were fitted with radar ranging gunsight

Saw first action September 1951 onwards

 

F-86F-1 to F-20, more powerful engine, adding 700lb of thrust.

Saw action from June 1952 onwards


F-86F-25/30 had a different wing known as the 6-3 wing which improved high altitude performance greatly. F-30 was the first fighter bomber variant.

Conversion kits to replace the wings of F-1 to F-15 with the new wing arrived in Korea from September 1952 onwards

 

F-20 and F-25 were never sent to units in Korea

 

F-2 were special GunVAL Sabres. 8 Sabres modified to be armed with 4 20mm revolver cannons and sent to combat testing from January to May 1953, claiming 6 MiGs 13 damaged in 282 missions

 

The F-86F series can be represented as one aircraft with 2 major modifications, 6-3 wing and GunVAL (after all we have Mc202 with 20mm and LaGGs with 23/37mm, IL-2 1942 with Sh-37, experimental aircraft modifications that saw combat are not new to this series).
 

 

 

Having a line-up with no Sabre vs MiG in the package as standard aircraft in a KOREAN war flight sim is also commercial suicide. When anyone with an interest in air combat thinks of Korea, they first think of muh MiG vs Sabre, muh MiG Alley, etc, not a bunch of obsolete WW2 aircraft and jets (especially stuff like the F-51D, which is in Bodenplatte)

 

The biggest problem with Korea is the discrepancy in the variety of the aircraft.

With UN forces, you have a whole range of jets and high performance props that are appropriate, whether they are the F-80, F-84, F-86, F2H, F9F, Meteor and more and superprops like the Sea Fury and F4U-5 Corsair.

 

The JCAF have 2 MiG-15 variants, MAYBE a La-15 and then a bunch of props that are inferior to the UN superprops in performance never mind their second tier jets

 

Edited by RoflSeal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, RoflSeal said:

 a bunch of props that are inferior to the UN superprops in performance never mind their second tier jets

 

I think the La-9 might manage to compete against the UN props at low altitudes, with it's top speed at sea level being around 640 km/h for what I could find.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, RoflSeal said:

Having a line-up with no Sabre vs MiG in the package as standard aircraft in a KOREAN war flight sim is also commercial suicide.

 Yes, of course. The Sabre and MiG are what people would be buying a Korean War sim for. If you give them nothing but props, than why not just keep doing WW2? Doesn't make sense. There would be prop jobs, but Korea has to be primarily about the jets. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Sambot88 said:

A good Korean War flight sim could totally be done some day by someone interested and willing.

 I'll keep hoping. I'd love to see it. In the meantime, I guess, I'll be in the cockpit of my DCS F-86. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...