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seafireliv

Did pilots ever screw up engine management while fighting in real life?

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I wish all this time limits were gone for carieer... you have 1 life and it's annoying to be limited to few minutes on full power when you fight for your life. It make sense in multi but now in carieer? Meh... would be cool to have your own plane and mechanic to take care of it, you could break engine later if you would fly on max power all the time and on X mission it would just be breaking a little due to using it too harsh and too much.

 

Why confused EAF_T_Therion? :P Time limits are unrealistic, aren't they? It's just for gameplay purpose so people wont keep using 100% of power all day because they will get new plane from factory next flight and engine is never used. But in carieer when you fly your own plane, it could give us a nice mechanic that damage you do to engine due to high use of it would transfer to next mission and sooner or later you could get malfunction. That was dev's idea discussed in CloD forum.

Edited by InProgress
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Gents,

 

I think that this a very interesting question as I feel that the discussion regarding anthropomorphic control needs to be eventually discussed and hopefully implemented within the game.  As far as I'm aware, the majority of German aircraft during WW2 appear to have been idiot proof (OK pilot proof) in that with all of the automated systems, it was perhaps less likely for things to go wrong (apart from mechanical failure, not human error), although you could argue that these automated systems err'd on the side of caution and perhaps allowing human control would ensure every last amount of advantage was taken. 

 

However, I believe (no historically data to back up) that the Russian fighters with all of the pulleys, bells and whistles that needed to be operated correctly perhaps would lead to an increased likely hood of human error, however, I do not believe that this can be simulated with the game in its current configuration.  As we know, lots of players have HOTAS type controls that allow numerous controls to be operated simultaneously, thus perhaps concealing the real pilot work-load that was required to do simple tasks.

 

Therefore, although perhaps I have not answered the original post and certainly do not want to de-rail this thread, I firmly believe that if the anthropomorphic type system was to be eventually implemented, we might see greater errors by us PC arm chair pilots, as currently playing anything with HOTAS and without anthropomorphic control perhaps conceals the real challenges that these real pilots had.

 

just a thought

 

Regards

 

Edited by Haza
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14 hours ago, Dakpilot said:

 

having helped rebuild a few 'big round' engines I will just go with the 'opinions' of very experienced engineers and my own experience during my career as a pilot :cool: and to agree, I am not a scientist, did not mean to start a controversy and sidetrack the discussion 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

 

 

This is like saying that homeopathy works because many experienced homeopaths told you that...

 

Societies have tendency to build up and propagate myths, even engineers, especially those with a backlog of field experience, rather than freshly acquired knowledge from the university.

 

Cheers, a rational human being.

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2 minutes ago, Sambot88 said:

 

On the flip side universities tend to emphasize theoretical knowledge and sometimes lag behind the practices that are actually in use. This is especially true in fields that evolve quickly.

 

 

Which aircraft engineering is clearly not, since we have those for over a century now.

 

Lets remember that compressibility was also "discovered" by fast-going WW2 pilots, and was also studied, understood and accounted for in the aircraft design! Somehow "shock cooling" remains to be a fairly contested myth after all of these years.

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Another point which is often overlooked is the fear which pilots often had for their own aircraft. Towards the end of 'The Big Show' Pierre Clostermann frankly admits how scared he is every time he has to get into his Tempest V, 'Le Grand Charles'. He's fully aware that these high performance machines can be just as deadly to their pilots as any enemy action.... 

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2 hours ago, JaffaCake said:

 

 

This is like saying that homeopathy works because many experienced homeopaths told you that...

 

Societies have tendency to build up and propagate myths, even engineers, especially those with a backlog of field experience, rather than freshly acquired knowledge from the university.

 

Cheers, a rational human being.

 

Go and argue with P&W, Wright, Lycoming and many other aircraft engine manufacturers about good practice of handling their engines, I think they know a bit more than you or me, and am fairly sure some of their employees may even have attended a university, or perhaps even some of the airlines with hundreds of thousands of radial flying hours, rather than some stupid wiki article. 

 

And no, my experience in my flying career is nothing like saying homeopathy works because someone said so, 

 

Anyway I'm out of this one :huh:

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

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14 minutes ago, Dakpilot said:

 

Go and argue with P&W, Wright, Lycoming and many other aircraft engine manufacturers about good practice of handling their engines, I think they know a bit more than you or me, and am fairly sure some of their employees may even have attended a university, or perhaps even some of the airlines with hundreds of thousands of radial flying hours, rather than some stupid wiki article. 

 

In that case it should be simple to find literature that describes the effect and explains how it arises? You keep quoting "20k hour experience" where its so much simpler to reference a particular document...  Which I'd expect you would certainly know, given your vast experience?

 

 

Quote

And no, my experience in my flying career is nothing like saying homeopathy works because someone said so, 

 

Even some pilots use homeopathy! All I am trying to say is that your experience is irrelevant to your claim. Base your facts on referenced material that is easy to locate, or reference it directly when making a claim. Any statements with "oh my buddy with 20k hours of experience knows this" is just like saying that my buddy who uses leeches has "cured hundreds of patients"

 

 

Quote

Anyway I'm out of this one :huh:

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

 

 

Good we understand each other! I'd best avoid controversies like these in the future too!

 

Cheers, a rational human being.

Edited by JaffaCake
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Gents,:salute:

 

we all love this simulation with all its pros and cons. We want a simulation that simulates the FM, DM, weather and all the rest to detail as accurate as

possible - even engine failure and other technical trouble are welcome - as I said, we want it as real as possible. And we got a very good simulation at

this point, but of course nothing is perfect and there is always room for improvement. BUT...:big_boss:

 

as Diggun pointed out, the pilots in real life had real fear, real concerns about their own planes and performance. So, you may simulated all kind of

things to perfection - real pilot behaviour can't be simulated or only in a small degree. Sometimes, when flying in MP I see a lot of virtual pilots doing

things with their planes, that in real life wouldn't happen without consequences - if something brakes, no problem, bail out and take the next aeroplane

in the hangar and up in the air until the next mishap. Again and again...:friends:

 

In real life pilots had to manage their engine and take care of their plane - otherwise they knew they eventually won't make it back in one piece or land

a crippled crate only to stay grounded for some days, depending on resupplying situation. And some sides were more affected than the others...

 

I have some books of autobiographical nature from very high decorated aces. They all were very concerned about their own planes and had to rely

on the skills of their ground crew. The debriefing not only consisted in combat situations and tactical achievements, but also in what their planes

had sustained (not talking about visual damages) during the combat hours.:hunter:

 

So, as you may see, we all can hope to see more and more detailed aircraft, historically correct FM/DM, weather and seasons - the only thing we

won't be able to simulate correctly will be the human behaviour with all its facets... or well perhaps only if there was a DID (Iron man) which bans

a dead pilot for about one year? Now that would be an option, isn't it?:biggrin:

 

Wish you all the very best...

 

Cheerio

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31 minutes ago, EAF_T_Therion said:

So, as you may see, we all can hope to see more and more detailed aircraft, historically correct FM/DM, weather and seasons - the only thing we

won't be able to simulate correctly will be the human behaviour with all its facets... or well perhaps only if there was a DID (Iron man) which bans

a dead pilot for about one year? Now that would be an option, isn't it?:biggrin:

 Iron Man in Career simulates that virtual fear very well, no need to ban for a year. Having your multiple target score and 20 mission survival wiped out instantly is easily enough. I have shouted, "NO!" When my wing has been taken off at low altitude because I know all my effort is now over.

 

The longer you live the more careful and `fearful` you become. Try it.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, seafireliv said:

 

 Iron Man in Career simulates that virtual fear very well, no need to ban for a year. Having your multiple target score and 20 mission survival wiped out instantly is easily enough. I have shouted, "NO!" When my wing has been taken off at low altitude because I know all my effort is now over.

 

The longer you live the more careful and `fearful` you become. Try it.

 

 

Yes, I know seafireliv, that's what I was trying to say - with other words and in another broader context. To ban or not to ban... that's the question.:coffee:

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7 minutes ago, EAF_T_Therion said:

Yes, I know seafireliv, that's what I was trying to say - with other words and in another broader context. To ban or not to ban... that's the question.:coffee:

 

I see.

 

By the way, Hope EAF are treating you well. Good chaps they are.

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1 hour ago, seafireliv said:

 

 Iron Man in Career simulates that virtual fear very well, no need to ban for a year. Having your multiple target score and 20 mission survival wiped out instantly is easily enough. I have shouted, "NO!" When my wing has been taken off at low altitude because I know all my effort is now over.

 

The longer you live the more careful and `fearful` you become. Try it.

 

 

 

This is so true!

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i can remember the old IL2 online war VOW, when i often flew with a guy who was one of the few wich survived 100 missions in a row - and not only in fighters !

I was with him when he was at number 98,99,100 (it was loud in TS ...) and 101. If i remember right , he was "killed" in Mission 103.

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In real live most pilots did get a lot of "training" theoretical and practical to learn to manage engines but still with combat damage some did not get home.

And do not forget that in real live a pilot can feel his engine a thing you cannot do in the game, so management is more easy in the game than in real live and luckily so. :salute:

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On 4/12/2018 at 7:31 AM, Dakpilot said:

Anyway I'm out of this one :huh:

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

Dakpilot - please keep offering opinions and your knowledge based on real life experience. A lot of us enjoy and even benefit from your posts.

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No, go away Dak. Your real world experience means nothing compared to the opinions of cushy armchair pilots worldwide ;)

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Dak should definitely have known that the „CHT“ gauge on his dash is metering homeopathy. The gauge being all the way to „low“ on the scale thus means „less homeopathy aboard“ which is of course a good thing and the pilot acted reasonably just cutting throttle at cruise altitude and diving towards the pattern. No homeoparhy aboard also means one less thing to carry through a go-around. 

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On 4/11/2018 at 9:08 AM, seafireliv said:

 

So it got me thinking, I`ve never read of pilots screwing up engine management in a dogfight in reality, but surely they must have done. Are there accounts of it happening?

 

Lol. Pilots screw up engine management just sitting on the ground doing nothing irl.

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