Jump to content

Devs! Ever considered letting the Axis win sometimes?


Recommended Posts

Defeat Looms for Soviets.

Is it possible to make the campaign dynamic enough so sometimes the Axis can actually win?

Now before some of you leap down my throat and get all emotional, please hear me out. Let logic and reason a chance to read and digest first.

 

I don`t play Axis except when I have to Online. I almost exclusively play Allies that includes the Soviets.

 

Now the men at the time didn`t know if they would win against the Axis; yes some of them say they `knew`, but they didn`t, trust me. The early part of the war, for most people, was up in the air, the Germans thought they were guaranteed a victory at one point and the Allies were almost at the point of giving up at others.

 

It would just be more of a focus for me knowing that we, as the Allies might actually lose, at least in some Campaigns. Again, nobody at the time knew how the war would turn out.

 

`Defeat looms for the Sovets` doesn`t quite have that gravitas when you know you can`t lose. I love reading these newspaper headlines by the way, very nice.

 

On the other side, it would give Axis players something to actually strive for in their battles.

 

Now I do know this could cause some head scratching since the airwar didn`t win the war alone; it partially won the war. Perhaps then a mechanic could be used where the pilots only contribute a certain amount to a randomised ground war mechanic. So perhaps either side gets a certain resource\command  point weighted to real life stats and it plays from there with the airwar contributing a certain percentage bonus modifier. Perhaps the victories could be in parts, a fail for Moscow, a victory for Stalingrad, a fail for the Kuban- Add it all up and it`s win, lose, war continues in a never ending stalemate which would be worse for the Axis. This means a pilot could shoot every enemy aircraft down and still lose or shoot almost no aircraft down and the war is still won.  just ideas off the top of my noggin.

 

p.s. I would also suggest it be an alternate `You can win or lose the war` Career mode, alongside the standard.

 

 

 

 

Edited by seafireliv
  • Confused 1
  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Some MP servers offer those kind of scenarios. Check out the likes of the Finnish Dynamic server, and coconuts normal or expert servers for that kind of thing.

The career mode, i think is designed to make you feel like you are reliving a part of history. Like you were part of whatever unit you pick, during their time in these theatres. I think the dev's pulled this off considerably well. Arguably with far greater effort than what might have been needed for a dynamic front line, because then they would have needed to worry much less about history.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I would actually like to see a carieer or scripted campaign where you win (not really a war but this scenario)

IL-2 Sturmovik Battle of Kharkov seems nice :D

 

First Battle of Kharkov, an October 1941 battle in which German troops captured the city.

Second Battle of Kharkov, a May 1942 battle in which Soviet forces attempted to retake the city.

Third Battle of Kharkov, a February 1943 battle in which Soviet forces were driven out again, and the Germans forces retook the city.

Belgorod-Khar'kov Offensive Operation, also known as Fourth Battle of Kharkov, an August 1943 battle in which Soviet forces retook the city. This operation is usually referred to as the Fourth Battle of Kharkov by the Germans and as the Belgorod–Kharkov offensive operation by the Soviets.

 

I don't know if there was any real air warfare but if yes, then it looks like a great expansion :o: Everyone would be happy, both sides win in diffrent time. And carieer would last reaaaaaly long :P

Edited by InProgress
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I find this idea very cool, but not really a must for the eastern campaigns. At the end of the day, not even Hartman could change the fate of the war, so it's kind of disengineous that you, the player, would be able too.

 

But, when the pacific comes, and we have carrier group vs carrier group battles, this will become a much more pertinent discussion. A good Dive bomber pilot might be able to sink an enemy carrier that was not destroyed IRL. A good fighter pilot might be able to prevent the destruction of a carrier that was sank in real life. These events would definitely change the course of a battle. I wonder what the dynamic career will look like in the pacific, and I hope the player will be able to influence the outcome of a battle.

 

 

  • Upvote 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

Perhaps it would be best if you focus not on will we win.  But rather, will I survive...?

 

Shouldn`t we be able to do both? Fight to survive and feel we can make a difference?

Link to post
Share on other sites

History is written already, we just join the "simulator" to re-live a "may have happened like this" scenarios.

 

Pretty sure Boris Belov wasn't a musician that joined the VVS and got thrown into the teeth of operation typhoon :) but hey, it is great fun to play a fictional character and going through the events as they unveloped.

 

MP though is 101% subjective.

Edited by =LD=Hethwill
Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand your theoretical idea. It would be possible, with early war campaigns before "Moscow" and "Stalingrad",

when the German advance was still forcefull and quick.

 

But I am flying German side most of the time, and I feel nothing wrong with the historical way, that German troops loose at the end.
Not only am I quite glad that it turned out this way in real life.

No, I am really still fighting hard, and have my successes as a pilot, without feeling less motivated, cause I know how it will end.

 

So, for me any "fake" scenarios would not make me happier - but maybe they could include the early war "Blitz"-Krieg,

when the German armies had their part-time winnings - that would be okay for me.

 

1 hour ago, seafireliv said:

... I almost exclusively play Allies that includes the Soviets.

 

How do you mean? Are there any other "Allies" in BoS? There are only the Russians, or not?
(I know we have some P-39 with American markings, but AFAIK there haven't been any pilots from other nations in Russia - or have they?)

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I just recently started the 10 days of Autumn. You play as a German Bf109 pilot. I get the mission briefing, go here, go there, come back, and when I press start, I get to the loading screen - always showing a German aircraft getting shot to shreds. :blink: That's 100% pure terror!

Edited by JtD
  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

In all seriousness, because some of you take this so seriously (apparently)

The campaign is not dynamic AT ALL - simple.

 

It a historic career, the larger framework is scripted basically.

The Germans lose - within that larger historic framework you can take part and have a small local effect (squadron)

So there's no making it "more" dynamic because it's not even somewhat dynamic.

 

The Germans are going to lose again - brace yourselves.

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Pupo said:

I find this idea very cool, but not really a must for the eastern campaigns. At the end of the day, not even Hartman could change the fate of the war, so it's kind of disengineous that you, the player, would be able too.

 

But, when the pacific comes, and we have carrier group vs carrier group battles, this will become a much more pertinent discussion. A good Dive bomber pilot might be able to sink an enemy carrier that was not destroyed IRL. A good fighter pilot might be able to prevent the destruction of a carrier that was sank in real life. These events would definitely change the course of a battle. I wonder what the dynamic career will look like in the pacific, and I hope the player will be able to influence the outcome of a battle.

 

 

 

Certainly in the war of france its debatable that the line between success and failiure at times hinged on Lufwaffe operations that narrowly suceeded, and only even went ahead at all, because certain German Lufwaffe generals chose to support Guderian, and ignore direct orders from the high command.

 

With the kind of War Germany prosecuted durring WW2 (blitzkrieg) where the two sides were actually unequal in the allies favor, a successful breakthrough (and thus the war itself) could hinge on a single bridge, or the morale of the defenders on one side of a river, that the attacking Lufwaffe was able to break, facilitating a German breakthrough, and eventual collapse of the french front line.

 

The Russian campaign however was on a scale too vast to pinpoint such things, and was won and lost in huge battles such as Kursk or Stalingrad. But really the Russian campagin was doomed at the gates of moscow or even earlier. 

 

I honestly dont think the majority of people even think about it in terms of winning or losing, even those who fly exclusively for the soviets, and for most people -especially now with the new/wonderful iron mode- BOS is a game of survival.    

 

I think also even if they were so inclined, it would be too much a headache for the developers to have to rewrite history and it probably makes things alot easier going by the book!

 

Edited by Wolf8312
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's not make it into a discussion, wether or not the Germans COULD have won that war, if they had done this or that differently.

They couldn't have won it. Not by numbers, and not by any "secret weapons of the Luftwaffe".

And, as I said before - I'm glad they didn't.

 

Let's play it as it was in real life. There have been great pilots like Hartmann, Barkhorn, Rall and many others, and they surely fought well.

We can try our best to play it the same way. As Feathered and others said - try to survive. That is the success.

 

1 minute ago, Gambit21 said:

"What If" carrier battles on the other hand as mentioned - that's definitely going to happen.

With scripted campaigns anyway.

 

You know 1st of April is long over - so I hope you are not only teasing?
A well-made Pacific campaign would be a dream-come-true for me - and many others here surely!

 

 

Edited by Wolfram-Harms
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

The Germans are going to lose again - brace yourselves.

Heey.. don't spoil it :angry:

 

18 minutes ago, Wolfram-Harms said:

"secret weapons of the Luftwaffe".


I don't know.. getting alien technology and zombie nazi army would probably make them win :cool:

 

I would not play carieer that makes you win ww2 and change history, i prefer to replay it. So for me expansion or scripted campaigns where germans won these battles, that would be cool.

Edited by InProgress
  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Like 1 squadron or one pilot could win the war on it's own.

That doesn't make sense exept in a what if scenario but this game is based on history and guess what the Germans didn't win any of the battles that are represented in the game.

Like someone said above try some online gameplay instead or even better create your own custom campaign with some unhistorical outcome.

You're litteraly the first person I've seen here complaining about how historical the campaign is xD

 

Edited by Hauggy
  • Sad 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

A proper dynamic campaign can be very cool, but it takes a significant, concentrated effort to build such a thing. It can’t simply be built on top of the current career mode, which isn’t dynamic at all.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, InProgress said:

I don't know.. getting alien technology and zombie nazi army would probably make them win

 

No way. The Germans had simply underestimated the sheer size of Russia, and the number of Russian soldiers.
Not to speak of the tanks, which were produced east of the Ural mountains - which they hadn't even on their "intelligence screen".

A nation as small as Germany, with no own oil fields or other important supplies cannot fight a big war over such a long time.
And with a "Blitz-Krieg" you cannot overrun Russia. They should have known - already the "great" Napoleon failed there...

 

1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

It's been my plan all along Wolfram, just waiting for the raw materials. :)

 

Now - before I explode in sheer extasy - tell me: how much influence do you have in the team, that it WILL be done? (Drool!)

 

 

 

Edited by Wolfram-Harms
Link to post
Share on other sites

One pilot isn't enough to swing the war in the favor of the Axis.

 

Ultimately, the goal of the pilot career is not to shape the ultimate result of the war, but rather to have you be another pilot trying to survive the largest conflict in history. To do anything else would be highly unrealistic.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Wolfram-Harms said:

 

 

How do you mean? Are there any other "Allies" in BoS? There are only the Russians, or not?
(I know we have some P-39 with American markings, but AFAIK there haven't been any pilots from other nations in Russia - or have they?)

 

 

 

 

I probably worded that badly, I mean in other  WW2 flight sims.

 

I should clarify that I do fly Axis aircraft to get a feel on how they work (I really liked the FW 190), and I have no problem flying Axis in MP, but in Career when actually fighting a war I always go Allied, Russian.

 

I am much more a natural turn fighter than a knife vertical fighter, plus the fact I am a little biased.  I`ll be honest. But that don`t mean I don`t want an enemy that can`t challenge me!

Edited by seafireliv
Link to post
Share on other sites

When I play an Allied career I don't feel 'The Russians won the war eventually so I am invincible.'    I feel 'I know, the Russians won the war eventually but that is no guarantee that I wont be killed alongside my whole squadron in this career.'    If I was flying an Axis career I would not be saying 'I know how the war ends so why should I bother flying'  I would be saying 'This is my chance to kill as many Ruskies as I can and gain lots of medals.  What happens in the over-all war in a few years is irrelevant right now.'     If the career was simulating being Stalin or Hitler then there might be an argument for letting the chances be equal but we are simulating one pilot and for him, even in real life, his personal experience of the war may have been a nightmare with a terrible end.   Similarly some LW pilots probably found the whole experience a glorious turkey shoot and died happily in their 90s with fond memories.     

 

Anyway, on the scale we are fighting at, an Allied player is  quite likely to be fighting in a battle that will be won by the Germans no matter how well the player does.  I could go out and kill every German aircraft I see and make sure every bombing raid wipes out all ground opposition so the land forces can advance unopposed but if the Germans won that battle in real life then  they will win in my career.  It wont affect my enjoyment.

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex
  • Like 2
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Wolfram-Harms said:

No way. The Germans had simply underestimated the sheer size of Russia, and the number of Russian soldiers.
Not to speak of the tanks, which were produced east of the Ural mountains - which they hadn't even on their "intelligence screen".

A nation as small as Germany, with no own oil fields or other important supplies cannot fight a big war over such a long time.
And with a "Blitz-Krieg" you cannot overrun Russia. They should have known - already the "great" Napoleon failed there...

 

Check the calibration of your humor meter. :)

  • Haha 3
  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

The ultimate Luftie thread to end all Luftie threads.

"LET US WIN!!!!!"

 

 

Let's not get too serious about this.  We all know how the real war turned out. 

 

The idea is a different kind of game where a strategic element is introduced along with the tactical (Battle of Britain anyone?).  Here's a back of the envelope design proposal:

 

Start on the Moscow Map. 

Germans have the advantage. 

If the Russians defeat the Germans here the war is over. 

If the Germans win, on to the Kuban. 

 

Kuban Map

If the Russians defeat the Germans return to Moscow (Moscow #2).

If the Germans win, on to Stalingrad. 

 

Stalingrad Map

If the Russians win here back to Kuban (Kuban #2)

If the Germans win they win the war

 

Kuban Map #2

If the Russians defeat the Germans return to Moscow.

If the Germans win, war ends due to exhaustion. 

 

Moscow Map #2

If the Russians defeat the Germans they win the war

If the Germans win, war ends due to exhaustion. 

 

As time passes things are made easier for the Russians and more difficult for the Germans.  The early Russian initiative is to survive, if winning outright is not possible.   The Germans must win three in a row (quick victory) or they can never win.  Should they fail to win then their imperative is to survive by defeating the Russians in a later battle.

 

Sounds like fun to me. 

Edited by PatrickAWlson
  • Like 2
  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

Check the calibration of your humor meter. :)

 

"Humor?! Vatt iss zatt ant vere muszt it be calibrated? A new secret weapon of der Enemy, I ssink!? Vee need to get more informashion!"

 

 

Edited by Wolfram-Harms
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Combat Flight Simulator 3 anyone?

 

It can be done. Ok, so it wasn`t done in the best way, it was way too easy to affect the war, and probably went too far (no way should they have jumped the English Channel THAT easily), but it worked quite well and I always enjoyed trying to push back the Germans back since I knew they might actually win! Pity the sim itself had lots of issues.

 

How about Pacific Air war? that too was opened ended.

Edited by seafireliv
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Patrick - I get it but you know better than anyone...

A - the layers of coding.

B - it would just come down to rolls of the dice under the hood.

 

Unless you're talking actual simulated combat, with simulated outcomes based on historical unit compositions along the entire front  with God knows how many factors, variables and inputs.

 

Better get to work. ;)

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Patrick - I get it but you know better than anyone...

A - the layers of coding.

B - it would just come down to rolls of the dice under the hood.

 

Unless you're talking actual simulated combat, with simulated outcomes based on historical unit compositions along the entire front  with God knows how many factors, variables and inputs.

 

Better get to work. ;)

 

I would do a round something like BoB ...

You the general designate targets

The program plays general for the other side

You step into your mission and fly it

The results get analyzed.  Any unit that you actually encountered during the flight uses actual results.

All other missions - i.e. flights that you did not encounter - go through a virtual analyzer.  Did any flights make contact?  Determine what happened based on who met who and ... yes ... die rolls.

Determine impact.

Next day.

 

The idea behind the generation and analysis is to limit the impact of die rolls.  They are there, but who met who, where, and in what numbers would heavily impact the outcome.  The results would feel anything but random.

 

I'll have it done by tomorrow :)

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Wolfram-Harms said:

Now - before I explode in sheer extasy - tell me: how much influence do you have in the team, that it WILL be done? (Drool!)

 

Although the campaigns will be "official" I operate on my own, and the campaigns will be sold via the current scripted campaign system.

I have no influence on what content the developers produce.

So currently the A-20 campaign is underway, then 9th Air Force P-47's...then Pacific.

 

What will the Pacific campaigns look like? That depends firstly on where Jason decides to go first.

If it's still Midway, then I have to choose between certain options because I can't do them all.

Obviously with Midway the campaigns will be fairly short...so I can do a few.

 

Zeke pilot Historical

 

Wildcat pilot Historical

 

Allied "overview" (fly various aircraft in a historical timeline for that day, patrol, then CAP, then bomber, then torpedo, then another CAP, hour by hour)

 

Same for Japanese

 

Japanese "what if" this can be various things, or a combo. What if the task force heading to the Aleutians was turned around sooner or showed up at Midway with the rest of the fleet?

What if this or that carrier was or wasn't sunk, etc etc.

 

Same "What If" for Allies. This can be a Wildcat campaign, or Dauntless, or combo...etc etc.

 

If it's not Midway, and just throwing out Solomons as a theoretical alternative ,  then more than likely it will be a Zeke campaign, then a Watch Tower (with carrier ops)/Wildcat/Henderson campaign, (with maybe a few Dauntless missions thrown in)   then an R-Area Air Force (float planes) campaign assuming I have the aircraft to work with, then a Corsair campaign when it's introduced, then a Mid-war Zeke campaign vs the Corsair/P-38. Lots of bang for the buck if we get that map - options are many.

 

I personally, LOVE the whole Solomon's/Guadalcanal thing. However I'll be happy building campaigns for and flying whatever we get, you'll see no complaint from me not matter what happens. Assuming Midway still, and carriers...well that's going to be a blast face it.

I'll start mapping the campaign on paper when I know what the PTO release looks like.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

30 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

I would do a round something like BoB ...

You the general designate targets

The program plays general for the other side

You step into your mission and fly it

The results get analyzed.  Any unit that you actually encountered during the flight uses actual results.

All other missions - i.e. flights that you did not encounter - go through a virtual analyzer.  Did any flights make contact?  Determine what happened based on who met who and ... yes ... die rolls.

Determine impact.

Next day.

 

The idea behind the generation and analysis is to limit the impact of die rolls.  They are there, but who met who, where, and in what numbers would heavily impact the outcome.  The results would feel anything but random.

 

I'll have it done by tomorrow :)

 

I see - I know you could do it Patrick. :)

TBH though I was thinking more about all the ground units, tank battles, infantry etc...the units that take ground, alter the position of the lines etc.

We're looking at dice rolls, or an INCREDIBLY dense, complex and expensive piece of software...and with dice rolls the whole "dynamic" aspect is simply

a superficial overlay to cover those up, with difference in the user experience being more or less nil.

 

I know you have the talent though.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

Let's not get too serious about this.  We all know how the real war turned out. 

 

The idea is a different kind of game where a strategic element is introduced along with the tactical (Battle of Britain anyone?).  Here's a back of the envelope design proposal:

 

Start on the Moscow Map. 

Germans have the advantage. 

If the Russians defeat the Germans here the war is over. 

If the Germans win, on to the Kuban. 

 

Kuban Map

If the Russians defeat the Germans return to Moscow (Moscow #2).

If the Germans win, on to Stalingrad. 

 

Stalingrad Map

If the Russians win here back to Kuban (Kuban #2)

If the Germans win they win the war

 

Kuban Map #2

If the Russians defeat the Germans return to Moscow.

If the Germans win, war ends due to exhaustion. 

 

Moscow Map #2

If the Russians defeat the Germans they win the war

If the Germans win, war ends due to exhaustion. 

 

As time passes things are made easier for the Russians and more difficult for the Germans.  The early Russian initiative is to survive, if winning outright is not possible.   The Germans must win three in a row (quick victory) or they can never win.  Should they fail to win then their imperative is to survive by defeating the Russians in a later battle.

 

Sounds like fun to me. 

 

Excellent idea. Sounds like a lot of fun and longterm enjoyment.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

I personally, LOVE the whole Solomon's/Guadalcanal thing.

 

Heeee-hawww!!! Yahoohooooo!!!!!! (Outbreak of sheer excitement) THAT would be the right point to start IMHO!

 

Jason, you may see it more from a marketing point of view, thinking that "Midway" is a better-known battle name?

But hey - EVERYone who is into a true and great PACIFIC campaign, would want to see the WHOLE way of that war - and they know their stuff.

(And to attract those who do NOT know much about the Pacific war, you guys just need to release some action vids, and smashing screenshots!)

 

And then: why do all that huge amount of work (making of all the ships alone!) for a shortened Pacific war?

My personal marketing suggestion therefor: make the WHOLE war, and make it in packs like you did with BoS.

If the first package would be named BATTLE OF MIDWAY, I think it should still contain all the action from Coral Sea, Midway and maybe Guadalcanal.

Just my thoughts...

Link to post
Share on other sites

One small aspect of a "dynamic" career that I actually would like to see, would be some kind of tracking of the enemy's losses (preferably tracking the individual squadrons, but less could do) If you and your squad mates (along with other AI flights) inflict severe enough losses on the opposing force, air activity over your sector of the front will all but cease, drastically lowering the likelihood, that you will meet any opposition in the air, until reinforcements can be brought in. Likewise, if the AI flights on your side suffer  too many casualties, air activity on your side will be reduced for a time, meaning you might not get assigned escort duties, because no bombing missions are flown, if you fly a bomber/ground attack aircraft, you might not get fighter cover, the chance of having other allied flights in the air during a mission will be low and overall your squad might get fewer mission assignments until reinforcements arrive.

 

I think this would be immersive, fairly realistic and it might prevent you from ranking up ridiculous scores, where you're feeling like your squad is gunning down half the LW/VVS by itself, because you routinely bring down half a dozen enemy fighters every mission you fly only to be met by more the next day. Also, it would not require a tremendous amount of tracking in between missions to do. You don't actually need to track resources for every squadron on the map. Simply have the game track allied and enemy losses every mission divided by aircraft category and set some thresholds at which point air activity starts to go down for each category. Then set a weekly number of reinforcements, that count the other way.

 

It won't let the Germans win the war (really, by late 1941 what would have let the Germans win the war?) But it will give you a sense, that your efforts during missions have an impact beyond that mission alone.

Edited by Finkeren
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Wolfram-Harms said:

 

Heeee-hawww!!! Yahoohooooo!!!!!! (Outbreak of sheer excitement) THAT would be the right point to start IMHO!

 

Jason, you may see it more from a marketing point of view, thinking that "Midway" is a better-known battle name?

But hey - EVERYone who is into a true and great PACIFIC campaign, would want to see the WHOLE way of that war - and they know their stuff.

(And to attract those who do NOT know much about the Pacific war, you guys just need to release some action vids, and smashing screenshots!)

 

And then: why do all that huge amount of work (making of all the ships alone!) for a shortened Pacific war?

My personal marketing suggestion therefor: make the WHOLE war, and make it in packs like you did with BoS.

If the first package would be named BATTLE OF MIDWAY, I think it should still contain all the action from Coral Sea, Midway and maybe Guadalcanal.

Just my thoughts...

 

Jason will steer the ship where it needs to go.

 

Midway is something everyone knows, and I'm sure that it would come with more than just the Midway map...I was never worried about that.

IF this all happens according to plan, and IF the Zeke is released early I'll make a short Darwin campaign using the Kuban map (since we have the P-40)

It's early days to be planning that though.

 

I just want the damn Zeke - gimme gimme gimme...and I do want to fly it from a carrier again as well.

I feel good about whatever happens.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...