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fiddlinjim

Future Developments in Flight Simming

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I feel I am one of BOX most dedicated users and have given up the other major Flight Simulation entirely. 
My rig is hi-end and I fly only in VR now, using the TM Warthog Joystick/Throttle with MFG pedals in order
to achieve the maximum in simulated immersion.  Flying over Stalingrad, Moscow or Kuban while in the
career mode is in my mind the ultimate in the enjoyment of flight simming.
However, I see future developments in our gamming sphere that I hope the BOX planners are watching and
evaluating as this is the direction that it appears to me that our favorite pastime is headed. 
1.  Increased usage and availability of hardware peripherals such as the GAMESEAT, BUTTKICKER
    and Motion Platforms.
2.  Improvements in VR clarity and FOV with new headsets and elimination of wired connections
    to the PC.
3.  Availability of VR hand tracking to provide for the manual manipulation of cockpit switches and
    control functions.  If this development continues, as it appears like it will, then the
    use of separate Joysticks and Throttles like the TM Warthog and Virple may be redundant.
   
Would really like to hear the opinions and ideas from other BOX users on this subject.

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How about development of haptic gloves that allow you to feel the various controls in the cockpit. Combine that with high-fi VR and a motion platform and you'd never come back down to earth. :)

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well the gloves nice, potentially great for flight simming, but it does still have some technical challenges. Like how would you have them track on demand ? you won't want your hands to be displayed in your cockpit while they are on your stick and throttle, given that where we position them, is unlikely to be in most cases where they would be in every plane that we fly.

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32 minutes ago, =FEW=Herne said:

well the gloves nice, potentially great for flight simming, but it does still have some technical challenges. Like how would you have them track on demand ? you won't want your hands to be displayed in your cockpit while they are on your stick and throttle, given that where we position them, is unlikely to be in most cases where they would be in every plane that we fly.

The bonus here is that you would no longer need a joystick since you would control it with your gloves!

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To the OP: You of course realize that 1C/777 have no ability to deliver any of the things you want? All of those are things hardware companies would have to develop.

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3 hours ago, MAGNUM_PT said:

The bonus here is that you would no longer need a joystick since you would control it with your gloves!

 

Now that'd be the height of discomfort. Need something to hold on to, because it'd be really tiresome (and unintuitive) to hold the hands in the air all the time.

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Well I am really looking forward to the future especially with what will come in VR technology. No telling what we will have in another 7-10 year span.

 

I have never been much interested in buttkickers or motion platform, I am fine in my comfortable desk chair. VR is currently giving me plenty of immersion as it is.

I can certainly see eventually hand tracking/haptic feedback really taking on , will be interesting to watch how that develops.

 

VR Headsets, I think when the true second generation devices eventually do come out, there will be some very nice improvements - certainly in FOV and Clarity, hoping for also foveated rendering and eye tracking, but it would not surprise me if the latter two don't quite make it till third generation. 

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holographic scene. :-) 

 

I’m afraid the whole VR has being stopped or does seems to have an enormous delay, maybe it is waiting for an decent recent AAAgame or it is all to expensive. Like FFB joysticks and 3D shutter glasses gaming, it seems it will not bring the mass revolution in flysim gaming. 

New generation VR sets like the new higher resolution Vive will cost € 900,- as an basic set, while including an decent Vcard it does count € 2000,- total. 

 

I think the future is in the hand of the youngsters. Not intrested in history, simple personalise the planes skin, simple plane controls and use of the gamepad. 

Somewhere there is an interview were Jason also see  this future when he is talking about combat flysims. 

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21 minutes ago, Dutch2 said:

holographic scene. :-) 

 

I’m afraid the whole VR has being stopped or does seems to have an enormous delay, maybe it is waiting for an decent recent AAAgame or it is all to expensive. Like FFB joysticks and 3D shutter glasses gaming, it seems it will not bring the mass revolution in flysim gaming. 

New generation VR sets like the new higher resolution Vive will cost € 900,- as an basic set, while including an decent Vcard it does count € 2000,- total. 

 

I think the future is in the hand of the youngsters. Not intrested in history, simple personalise the planes skin, simple plane controls and use of the gamepad. 

Somewhere there is an interview were Jason also see  this future when he is talking about combat flysims. 

 

Nothing has stopped or any delay. Nothing is waiting for an AAA game. Things are progressing as expected and companies keep increasing their invest into VR. Not necessarily something the common gamer can see yet (apparently). Comparing it to FFB joysticks is way off. It seemingly has already brought a mass revolution to flight sim, more then 50% of the people i know in flight simming use VR already and 95% who have tried it won't never go back to a monitor. 
All new tech is expensive and VR will keep being expensive for a while. That said, i got my complete Oculus Bundle including touch controllers for 280€, that's less then some Nintendo Switch for kids. Many simmers already have a decent rig, so no need to upgrade it. 

 

What you are talking about has nothing to do with flight simming what so ever. Games overall have always been in the hands of youngsters, nothing to do with the past or the future. Flight simming however was never anything for youngsters, until back to the days of Red Baron it has always been a genre for serious adults. This won't change. 

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*
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6 minutes ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

 

Nothing has stopped or any delay. Nothing is waiting for an AAA game. Things are progressing as expected and companies keep increasing their invest into VR. Not necessarily something the common gamer can see yet (apparently). Comparing it to FFB joysticks is way off. It seemingly has already brought a mass revolution to flight sim, more then 50% of the people i know in flight simming use VR already and 95% who have tried it won't never go back to a monitor.  

 

Fully agree.

There is a tremendous amount of development being done in VR now, way more than a couple of years ago.

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20 minutes ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

 

Nothing has stopped or any delay. Nothing is waiting for an AAA game. Things are progressing as expected and companies keep increasing their invest into VR. Not necessarily something the common gamer can see yet (apparently). Comparing it to FFB joysticks is way off. It seemingly has already brought a mass revolution to flight sim, more then 50% of the people i know in flight simming use VR already and 95% who have tried it won't never go back to a monitor. 
All new tech is expensive and VR will keep being expensive for a while. That said, i got my complete Oculus Bundle including touch controllers for 280€, that's less then some Nintendo Switch for kids. Many simmers already have a decent rig, so no need to upgrade it. 

 

What you are talking about has nothing to do with flight simming what so ever. Games overall have always been in the hands of youngsters, nothing to do with the past or the future. Flight simming however was never anything for youngsters, until back to the days of Red Baron it has always been a genre for serious adults. This won't change. 

Agree 1000 % . This should be made a sticky :salute:

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I do not see the advantage of wireless connections?! They use the same if not more computer power than wired connections and this because!!! at one point they are connected   to the PC by usb/cards or motherboards like the wired ones? NO? The wireless has one big problem they are more prone to communications problems, often a single sheet of paper can/could block the communication between the peripheral and the PC. But everyone is free in is choices.

 

:salute:

 

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13 minutes ago, senseispcc said:

I do not see the advantage of wireless connections?! They use the same if not more computer power than wired connections and this because!!! at one point they are connected   to the PC by usb/cards or motherboards like the wired ones? NO? The wireless has one big problem they are more prone to communications problems, often a single sheet of paper can/could block the communication between the peripheral and the PC. But everyone is free in is choices.

 

:salute:

 

 

Neither do I, in the grand scheme of things for VR wireless is not something I am craving.

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The reason someone would want to go wireless is obviously to eliminate being tied to their computer and free to move about a room. This is not something that a person remaining in a sitting position for the duration of the game would be interested in.

It would, however, require a battery pack be worn by the player to replace the USB connection.

I see no advantage for a flight sim gamer.

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1 hour ago, Gordon200 said:

The reason someone would want to go wireless is obviously to eliminate being tied to their computer and free to move about a room. This is not something that a person remaining in a sitting position for the duration of the game would be interested in.

It would, however, require a battery pack be worn by the player to replace the USB connection.

I see no advantage for a flight sim gamer.

I agree completely with the statements that a seated flight sim gamer does not need a wireless connection, It could, it least for the foreseeable future, detrimentally increase the weight of the headset.    However, the majority of  VR manufacturers appear to be moving in that direction as they strive for the  latest in technological advancements and  looking for an increase in market share. 

 

9 hours ago, Inkoslav said:

 

Now that'd be the height of discomfort. Need something to hold on to, because it'd be really tiresome (and unintuitive) to hold the hands in the air all the time.

This is my major concern with the future use of Haptic Gloves.    

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11 hours ago, Inkoslav said:

 

Now that'd be the height of discomfort. Need something to hold on to, because it'd be really tiresome (and unintuitive) to hold the hands in the air all the time.

 

I can imagine two possibilities:

 

- Use the current stick, throttle (and rudder) hardware and simulate other cockpit controls through the gloves 

 

- Use simple stick and throttle forms with no control buttons and levers and simulate those controls and other cockpit controls through the gloves

 

I imagine the gloves would need to be pretty advanced to simulate fine controls such as a stick-mounted brake lever or mini-joystick.

Edited by JimTM

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6 hours ago, dburne said:

 

Neither do I, in the grand scheme of things for VR wireless is not something I am craving.

 

Yeah not at the moment because presently roomscale games are generally pants. But I have played some roomscale games, that have convinced me that they too are the future of gaming. More immersive than flight sims in many ways, some of the horror games were honestly like being in a real life horror movie and literally turned my blood cold! There has simply never been a medium created that is capabul of what VR is cababul of and it's going to change the world. In roomscale games the wire is a devastating hinderance so it needs to get gone and fast. The only reason I dont care too much just yet is that there are not really any roomscale games worth buying (or at least not worth buying a new headset for) but there will be one day!

Does anyone know if there are any other VR combat sims in development as of now?

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4 hours ago, JimTM said:

 

I can imagine two possibilities:

 

- Use the current stick, throttle (and rudder) hardware and simulate other cockpit controls through the gloves 

 

- Use simple stick and throttle forms with no control buttons and levers and simulate those controls and other cockpit controls through the gloves

 

I imagine the gloves would need to be pretty advanced to simulate fine controls such as a stick-mounted brake lever or mini-joystick.

I personally would like to see the simple stick and throttle form as the best method to get full utilization of Haptic gloves along with manual hand movement of switches and dials.

However making that a reality would appear at first glance as extremely difficult because with the simple stick/throttle set in a permanent position around you chair, the cockpit instrument panel and stick would probably be in a different location each time you reset the view in VR.   Consequently the Haptic glove hand would most likely not be close enough to the cockpit stick to activate it.

Edited by fiddlinjim
clarity
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I don`t have VR or any of that stuff. But my keyboard is wireless and so is my mouse. The only problems I`ve ever had with them is the battery on my mouse needs recharging every 2 days or so and my keyboard rarely needs recharging since it`s solar-powered. Wireless Tech has really improved since the days when they were rubbish.

 

I`m so please with them I`m considering going for a wireless mouse that`s powered by the mouse pad, so it`ll never need to stop to recharge in theory.

Edited by seafireliv

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What about AI? What about interaction with AI? And damage modelling, its visual and physics? Have a look at some photographs, see what ammunition does to an airplane and its components... and these are just a few superficial things. Sincerely, I think there's a whole world that still begs to be acknowledged and developed for a richer experience other than supporting better control (subjectively) interfaces.

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I also fly VR, but I can't see any usefulness is being vibrated and having to wave my hands around mid-air. And I don't mind the cable while I'm seated. But we could expect the following:

1. 150-160 degree FoV with double pixel density seems likely 2-3 years from now.

2. eye-tracking combined with a single button on your joystick would allow you to control any knob/button just by looking at it. A vibrating chair might interfere with that. More importantly, supersampling would be done only in around the thing you're looking at, increasing quality with very little performance hit.

3. Force Feedback sticks and pedals. That right there is the biggest immersion factor we need.

 

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On 3/30/2018 at 4:37 PM, JimTM said:

How about development of haptic gloves that allow you to feel the various controls in the cockpit. Combine that with high-fi VR and a motion platform and you'd never come back down to earth. :)

Nintendo's got you covered.

maxresdefault.jpg

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18 hours ago, Picchio said:

What about AI? What about interaction with AI? And damage modelling, its visual and physics? Have a look at some photographs, see what ammunition does to an airplane and its components... and these are just a few superficial things. Sincerely, I think there's a whole world that still begs to be acknowledged and developed for a richer experience other than supporting better control (subjectively) interfaces.

 

I agree with this. There are boat loads of small improvements that can be made instead of super dope power-glove tech.

 

AF personnel: (moving bombs, refueling people, mechanics working on an engine ect)

More targets: Infantry, Trenches, Fox holes, Bunkers, horses

Better AI formations based on historical data

Better AI control, ie flight lead commands

Additional ordnance types

Proper markings/plane skins

More/varied radio chatter

auto-pull out system for Stuka

Torpedo's for applicable plane types

Recon planes

 

the list goes on

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On 3/31/2018 at 5:07 AM, Inkoslav said:

 

Now that'd be the height of discomfort. Need something to hold on to, because it'd be really tiresome (and unintuitive) to hold the hands in the air all the time.

I do it in xplane. works remarkably well!

15 minutes ago, NETSCAPE said:

 

I agree with this. There are boat loads of small improvements that can be made instead of super dope power-glove tech.

 

AF personnel: (moving bombs, refueling people, mechanics working on an engine ect)

More targets: Infantry, Trenches, Fox holes, Bunkers, horses

Better AI formations based on historical data

Better AI control, ie flight lead commands

Additional ordnance types

Proper markings/plane skins

More/varied radio chatter

auto-pull out system for Stuka

Torpedo's for applicable plane types

Recon planes

 

the list goes on

I also think more quality of life improvements would be the way forward.

 

as well as more plane systems I'd like other details to come into play.

 

the world is very static for example, I'd love to see more wildlife/people etc.

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On 30/03/2018 at 11:37 PM, JimTM said:

How about development of haptic gloves that allow you to feel the various controls in the cockpit. Combine that with high-fi VR and a motion platform and you'd never come back down to earth. :)

Last year I tested a kind of haptic single finger glove but tied to a mechanical setup. It was a very sophisticated research tool. This made it possible to touch in space objects and perfectly feel if the surface was elastic, hard, soft, slippery, rough, or various different textures. You could very easily model the feeling of moving a switch or any button, instrument in the cockpit.

 

Now with both hands having say three fingered haptic gloves of this quality, you do not need throttle or stick. You just feel and move the simulated ones. All switches, can then become active.

In some not too distant future (I am 60 and in good shape, so I hope to still have the possibility to experience it) we will have no more sticks, throttles and pedals.

We will fly at minimum 4K per eye VR in a fully functional cockpit, and we will act on the cockpit instruments, stick and throttle with our hands very naturally, and feeling their material behavior. The manufacturers of the gloves will supply function libraries SDK to companies like 1C that will include these possibilities when designing cockpits.

That is the ultimate goal. Because then you will be effectively flying the airplane in the cockpit.

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IMO people need to remember our particular genre is really difficult to get into from the start.  The barrier of entry is very high not only from a hardware perspective but a learning curve perspective.  Another issue which is very much ingrained in our particular hobby is we are a very small market comparted to Wood Elf games or Shooters.  Also consider the audience is very difficult to satisfy for a number of reasons.  Just look at all the threads with discussions about plane performance historical accuracy and the FW bar being too big.  So it’s quite the challenge getting all these variables to line up and be profitable.  I’m sure Jason and team don’t have the crazy budget like AAA titles get.  Publishers know their markets and how to make money.  I think from now on we aren’t going to see any big changes come our way any time soon.  Certainly we can start to bring in new people via new technologies but I don’t think it has the numbers.

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1 hour ago, IckyATLAS said:

...In some not too distant future...we will have no more sticks, throttles and pedals. We will fly at minimum 4K per eye VR in a fully functional cockpit, and we will act on the cockpit instruments, stick and throttle with our hands very naturally, and feeling their material behavior. The manufacturers of the gloves will supply function libraries SDK to companies like 1C that will include these possibilities when designing cockpits. That is the ultimate goal. Because then you will be effectively flying the airplane in the cockpit.

 

That's the prize my eyes are fixed on. I'm (in my own tech-future fantasy) even factoring in "foviated rendering" as well as the haptic gloves and clickable knobs and switchable switches!

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22 hours ago, Picchio said:

What about AI? What about interaction with AI? And damage modelling, its visual and physics? Have a look at some photographs, see what ammunition does to an airplane and its components... and these are just a few superficial things. Sincerely, I think there's a whole world that still begs to be acknowledged and developed for a richer experience other than supporting better control (subjectively) interfaces.

AI  in gaming is very important to me as well. However, I see most gaming\sim Devs appear unwilling to make the effort for really good AI.

 

The scary thing is that companies dealing in security and the internet (like Google) are making great strides in AI and it`s not in the area I was hoping for. Great AI in gaming I`d love, great AI that`s manipulating what I do on the net, or monitoring me, I do not love. :(

Edited by seafireliv
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7 hours ago, NETSCAPE said:

More targets: Infantry, Trenches, Fox holes, Bunkers, horses

 

Not only that, but the ability of the sim to put far more objects on the map, and more aircraft, both human and AI, in the air.

This is badly needed if you really want to have an immersive battlefield.  How on Earth could the battle of Kursk, or any of the major naval battles of the Pacific, be replicated in the sim with the tiny numbers of objects that currently can be placed on a map?

Edited by BlitzPig_EL
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On 4/2/2018 at 12:48 PM, IckyATLAS said:

Last year I tested a kind of haptic single finger glove but tied to a mechanical setup. It was a very sophisticated research tool. This made it possible to touch in space objects and perfectly feel if the surface was elastic, hard, soft, slippery, rough, or various different textures. You could very easily model the feeling of moving a switch or any button, instrument in the cockpit.

 

Now with both hands having say three fingered haptic gloves of this quality, you do not need throttle or stick. You just feel and move the simulated ones. All switches, can then become active.

In some not too distant future (I am 60 and in good shape, so I hope to still have the possibility to experience it) we will have no more sticks, throttles and pedals.

We will fly at minimum 4K per eye VR in a fully functional cockpit, and we will act on the cockpit instruments, stick and throttle with our hands very naturally, and feeling their material behavior. The manufacturers of the gloves will supply function libraries SDK to companies like 1C that will include these possibilities when designing cockpits.

That is the ultimate goal. Because then you will be effectively flying the airplane in the cockpit.

Be still my heart...wouldn't that be great.I have only one question what would happen to the tactile  feel of the stick...its weight & resistance or "wobble" as in FFB?

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On 3/30/2018 at 5:05 PM, fiddlinjim said:

Availability of VR hand tracking to provide for the manual manipulation of cockpit switches and
    control functions.  If this development continues, as it appears like it will, then the
    use of separate Joysticks and Throttles like the TM Warthog and Virple may be redundant.

Not sure I am allowed to mention other flight sims on here or not, but I figure I can mention microsoft flight sim x and xplane, since they are non combat so not really competition for this game.

 

I wanted to mention that you can buy this thing called fly inside that works for both microsoft flight sim x and xplane. It adds VR to both of the games, but it also enables the  use of the touch controls.

 

It's kind of weird because you actually grab the virtual flight controls, but in real life you are grabbing nothing. but all of the buttons are wired up to work with the touch controls and it is fun to test out and see where the tech is going. I still prefer just using the stick but that may just be because I am used to it.

 

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I run a vr  setup plus I fly in a motion platform and own a buttkicker as well 

 

Il2 can already accommodate these 2 components in all sp and mp  but with some limitations 

1. Buttkicker is merely using the lower frequency range of a games sound to create vibration. Il2 works with this well. Engine reverb gun shudder all come across . However if you compared it to the a another sim , The sounds are so much more complex and deeper in other product they are truly immersive 

2. Motion platform for best effect requires telemetry export . The competitor does this il2 doesn't. You can work around it by using peripheral input as your signal but it's no where near as immersive 

 

Clickable cockpits are probably not a realistic goal for il2 .. The level of detail would increase production time and increase module cost 

I've built a workaround  for clickable cockpits in il2 already as a proof of concept.  It works but it's just not smooth and intuitive enough to make it an improvement 

 

Hotas will always be part of a sim setup imo. But the way the hotas is integrated with the vr is what will change. 

 

What I think it could excel at is larger aircraft and the gunner bombadier stations in vr. Roomscale movement through the fuselage of a bomber moving to each station and using the gunner positions as a roomscale vr experience would be amazing 

 

Also their implementation of vr in upcoming tanks will be very interesting . Again roomscale movement in a tank hull. Physical gun sights  and viewing prisms to look through etc 

 

There's an interesting lite subsim  on steam that shows a good example of what can be done with roomscale in a ww2 type of environment 

Here is the example of roomscale vr in a sub

 

http://store.steampowered.com/app/552080/IronWolf_VR/

Edited by =IL2AU=chappyj
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