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AI seems to be much improved

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They said they would do it and I think they did a great job

 

The AI no longer hits the deck the way they were doing, and seem to handle low dog fights much better...

 

When trying out the new P-39, with the P-39 as AI set on novice and me in a 109F-2, I was happy to see the novice AI blow his engine while attempting to clime after me :) I'm not sure if this behavior is recently implemented or not, but I find it very cool?

 

Having fun checking it all out. Anyone else noticed any stuff like this with the AI?

Edited by Pict

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Its better but too often AI doesnt bail out from burning plane and ends up getting cooked alive or crashes. Seems like they try to RTB when plane is on fire which is just stupid.

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12 minutes ago, Pict said:

They said they would do it and I think they did a great job

 

The AI no longer hits the deck the way they were doing, and seem to handle low dog fights much better...

 

Having fun checking it all out. Anyone else noticed any stuff like this with the AI?

Sorry...no. Not really. Far away from that. Read here please.

 

But I hope for futher AI improvements. (or a complete overhaul)

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Must be doing something wrong then...

I'm still losing whole flights of AI 109 wingmen on supply convoy attack missions due to them diving into ground.

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1 hour ago, Semor76 said:

Sorry...no. Not really. Far away from that. Read here please.

 

Is that not more a mission related, trigger type of issue that just the AI ?

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3 minutes ago, Pict said:

 

Is that not more a mission related, trigger type of issue that just the AI ?

Unfortunately not. I can observe the same AI behaviour in scripted campaigns as well. It´s the AI routine. Someone correct me please, if I´m wrong here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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It's easy to get a following enemy AI to fly into terrain.

 

In PWCG generated co-op missions I've had 2 out of six of my flight fly straight into a ridge on takeoff, and will do it repeatedly when I restart the mission.  I've seen AI 109s run into each other while trying to taxi, etc...

 

That said, I've also seen Bf110s using absolutely amazing BnZ tactics when mixing it up.

 

I'd say it's a mixed bag concerning the AI.

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There remains a lot to be desired concerning the AI. Time on target for instance. A well coordinated attack does not mean the flight should circle the target area untill they're all shot down. Target fixation of enemy fighters is still there. I think we all know that it's not ideal, I just hope Han and the team will get the opportunity to do something about it.

 

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A well coordinated attack does not mean the flight should circle the target area untill they're all shot down.

 

I like to think of it as extreme dedication to the job...

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The AI still is oblivious when it comes to dogfighting, but in other ways it might be better. :)

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2 hours ago, NahkaSukka said:

Its better but too often AI doesnt bail out from burning plane and ends up getting cooked alive or crashes.

 

Well maybe they are playing in VR and can never find the keyboard in time!

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3 hours ago, Pict said:

They said they would do it and I think they did a great job

 

The AI no longer hits the deck the way they were doing, and seem to handle low dog fights much better...

 

When trying out the new P-39, with the P-39 as AI set on novice and me in a 109F-2, I was happy to see the novice AI blow his engine while attempting to clime after me :) I'm not sure if this behavior is recently implemented or not, but I find it very cool?

 

Having fun checking it all out. Anyone else noticed any stuff like this with the AI?

 

I quite agree. They catch me with my pants down more frequently. 

 

When escorting bombers, the enemy fighters would jump on the bombers, and in turn I would jump on them with impunity. Now, at least three times, when I was chasing an interceptor, one of their partners shot me as i was starting to line up with the interceptor. I know there is no excuse not to be watching for it, but I got so used to not being bothered when chasing interceptors during a pass on the bombers ... that doesn't happen anymore!  

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I too find the AI to be better behaved in 3.001. Not perfect, but certainly an improvement.

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Improved yes but far from being enjoyable for me. At least on the axis side. The worst experience so far is flying the Hs 129, this thing is slow as hell and you must slow down even further if you dont want to fly alone. At nominal power i can reach around 300kph but i need to slow down to 250kph or slower, which is awful, but even then, my comrades struggle so hard to keep up, i dont understand this. And the fact that this plane is so slow makes the AI needs ages to make an attack run and worst of all, they will mostly attack the same target but this also happens with other planes not just the 129. And if the target is destroyed, all AIs who have the same target will just break the attack, confirm target destroyed via radio (all of them lol), circle around and make a new attackrun and this repeats endlessly. In the meantime i destroyed most targets alone.

 

Im really pissed that the AI, which is so important in such games, is still the worst part of the game like since the beginning. :( 

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I also think the AI is the worst part of the otherwise awesome sim.

It has improved a little bit I think, for example it doesn't always prioritize you the player as a target but also your AI wingmen.

 

What maybe would be needed is a dedicated AI for:

 

- Bombers

- Attack planes

- German fighters

- Russian Fighters

- Leaders/Wingmen

 

But I think this isn't going to be very likely. If I recall it right, Jason said once that they don't have a dedicated AI guy in the team. Unfortunately this shows...

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to OP

 

I agree that the AI is much much better now.

 

planes boom and zoom, they drop to the deck and don't hit the ground (in my experience) and overall, perform many more maneuvers. not once have i encountered the endless circle AI since 3.001. i'm flying the career and now have been promoted to lieutenant. i didn't fly singleplayer before and the new AI and the career have me flying it exclusively  

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13 minutes ago, 19//SAG said:

...that the AI is much much better now.

 

planes boom and zoom, they drop to the deck and don't hit the ground (in my experience) and overall, perform many more maneuvers. not once have i encountered the endless circle AI since 3.001. 

No offense, but everytime I read such comments I start to belive we must play a complete different sim in a different universe:)

 

48 minutes ago, JG4_Sputnik said:

I also think the AI is the worst part of the otherwise awesome sim.

It has improved a little bit I think, for example it doesn't always prioritize you the player as a target but also your AI wingmen.

 

What maybe would be needed is a dedicated AI for:

 

- Bombers

- Attack planes

- German fighters

- Russian Fighters

- Leaders/Wingmen

 

But I think this isn't going to be very likely. If I recall it right, Jason said once that they don't have a dedicated AI guy in the team. Unfortunately this shows...

+1  The 777 guys did a great job with the IL-2 brand, but the AI is the most weak spot. IMHO the Team should now hire a AI Guru. This Sim needs one.

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7 minutes ago, Semor76 said:

No offense, but everytime I read such comments I start to belive we must play a complete different sim in a different universe:)

 

+1  The 777 guys did a great job with the IL-2 brand, but the AI is the most weak spot. IMHO the Team should now hire a AI Guru. This Sim needs one.

 

well before 3.001 i also read that the AI on other people's machines did other maneuvers other than circling around, after the latest patch i haven't got that once. so maybe it was/is a bug?

 

I do agree that the AI could use improvements like not chasing you all the way to your base or bailing out when on fire, as well as some tweaking and adding more routines. But overall, i do think that the AI is much much better than it was before the patch (again, i might have had a bug before the patch where the AI had only ONE mode and it was circling about to stall all the time)

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As with this kind of thing, AI, even very good AI can be extremely subjective to individuals as people tend to expect the sort of things from it that they tend to ignore when Humans do it. Or curse it when it makes errors that Users routinely do. I`ve seen it so many times.

 

Some people think AI is bad because it doesn`t magically know to get out of his way or `shoulder shoots` or accidentally hits something yet i`ve seen Human Players do this all the time, etc, etc, etc. Also they never give AI the caveat for making `mistakes` and give it some `space` like we do with Humans all the time. I suspect there is a psychological aspect here due to the fact that the AI cannot defend itself.

 

Now clearly some AI in some games and sims are bad, really bad, but some are very good considering they have to go up against the HUMAN BRAIN.

 

Anyway, I have yet to make an appraisal of the AI with this update as I`ve only flown 5 missions, but will do. But so far it has not yet fouled up.

Edited by seafireliv
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9 hours ago, seafireliv said:

As with this kind of thing, AI, even very good AI can be extremely subjective to individuals as people tend to expect the sort of things from it that they tend to ignore when Humans do it. Or curse it when it makes errors that Users routinely do. I`ve seen it so many times.

 

Some people think AI is bad because it doesn`t magically know to get out of his way or `shoulder shoots` or accidentally hits something yet i`ve seen Human Players do this all the time, etc, etc, etc. Also they never give AI the caveat for making `mistakes` and give it some `space` like we do with Humans all the time. I suspect there is a psychological aspect here due to the fact that the AI cannot defend itself.

 

Now clearly some AI in some games and sims are bad, really bad, but some are very good considering they have to go up against the HUMAN BRAIN.

 

Anyway, I have yet to make an appraisal of the AI with this update as I`ve only flown 5 missions, but will do. But so far it has not yet fouled up.

 

Good point. I know if I was an NPC people would certainly be complaining about how dumb the AI was...I've flown into the ground for seemingly no apparent reason many times as well! 

 

That said yesterday I shot down 3 planes in one mission, so it can't be that smart!

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3 minutes ago, Wolf8312 said:

 

Good point. I know if I was an NPC people would certainly be complaining about how dumb the AI was...I've flown into the ground for seemingly no apparent reason many times as well! 

 

That said yesterday I shot down 3 planes in one mission, so it can't be that smart!

Not talking about IL2 directly but I`ve played online games where people bitterly complain about an AI fighter which turned out to be a real person! But they then just forget about that. And I`ve seen people treat Human players like AI (me included) when they don`t realise we`re Human.

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On the other hand its not possible to surprise AI like in real life, so some dumb AI compensate this. But I agree AI need improvements .

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1 hour ago, Voidhunger said:

On the other hand its not possible to surprise AI like in real life, so some dumb AI compensate this. But I agree AI need improvements .

 

Surprise can be `simulated` if coders know what they`re doing. Also perhaps it is simulated except the Player assumes he shouldn`t have been seen when he actually didn`t surprise the AI. The old "It can`t be my fault, must be the AI!"

 

Most of the excuses I hear from Devs these days on AI in PC games\sims isn`t that they can`t do it, but that it just isn`t worth the effort. Very disappointing when I hear that.

Edited by seafireliv

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19 hours ago, Space_Ghost said:

I'm still seeing AI that pointlessly turnfight for days and who pretty much allow themselves to be shot down but some of the AI roles are working a little better.

+ 1000

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Shot down my first 109 AI since starting. Took me 5 missions while I got back into it. Moderate Career difficulty, realistic flying, dense ground stuff.

 

I think I got a noob AI since he was very lazy in avoiding me and I was able to catch him and shoot him enough to get him smoking then followed him down to make sure. Huzzah!

Normally, the 109 would simply boom me while I`m still reading my gauges, knocking me out of the fight (I would run), or he`d  just extend away whenever I did get on his 6.

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2 hours ago, seafireliv said:

 

Most of the excuses I hear from Devs these days on AI in PC games\sims isn`t that they can`t do it, but that it just isn`t worth the effort. Very disappointing when I hear that.

 

I agree, that is disappointing indeed. I can recall many good times playing with AI players on former game titles. However, it is a reflection of the market situation these days and in 2018 people by and large just don't want to play with bots any more. It's a thing of the past now. Things changed so much with this level of connectivity we have, and if you follow the money- in this day and age it's multiplayer where it all happens. 

Edited by Mcdaddy

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33 minutes ago, Mcdaddy said:

 

I agree, that is disappointing indeed. I can recall many good times playing with AI players on former game titles. However, it is a reflection of the market situation these days and in 2018 people by and large just don't want to play with bots any more. It's a thing of the past now. Things changed so much with this level of connectivity we have, and if you follow the money- in this day and age it's multiplayer where it all happens. 

I would respectfully disagree. There are untold hundreds, if not thousands, of us that do not venture on line nor care to. AI is still important and while not perfect, it's still decent under most circumstances.

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43 minutes ago, Mcdaddy said:

 

I agree, that is disappointing indeed. I can recall many good times playing with AI players on former game titles. However, it is a reflection of the market situation these days and in 2018 people by and large just don't want to play with bots any more. It's a thing of the past now. Things changed so much with this level of connectivity we have, and if you follow the money- in this day and age it's multiplayer where it all happens. 

 

The problem is I often don`t have time for multiplayer. There were times I got so into it that days went by and other things were being neglected. Heck I would even work during the day and play Multiplayer by night! The whole night! Yea I know...

 

 

That is why AI is so much better; I can can control when I play. Also it tends to work in the spirit of the sim\game even if it isn`t as good as a Human. Humans often act retarded and blow a good session though I speak more of the fps finger twitch crowd rather than IL2.

 

Also, I don`t believe it`s a thing of the past. You will always need AI (or programmed routines before someone says it). Multiplayer, internet connections, etc is a weak link that we will one day find out to our discomfort. I kid you not.

Edited by seafireliv
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Also remember we have 4 levels of AI in flight.

Novice

Regular

Veteran

Ace

 

Of course the lower levels are going to be better adapt at 2D turn fighting like pretty much normal humans are.  Don't expect miracles from them as squad mates in German fighters ))

 

The Vets and Ace's though, they work the planes quite well including German.  I think given the resources, the Devs have done a good job.  There is more that can be done but also, if you are a flight leader, use your radio to command then in the fight, be it attacking fighters, bombers or ground targets and then call them off when the situation requires it.  Either to scoot out of a bad fight or if and when the fight is over.

 

AI managed to do this to my 109G2 last flight but I bagged 2 A20's and forced them to abandon their target.  2 fighters chased me home but I got down with only bending the prop. :good:

20180327184522_1.jpg

20180327184525_1.jpg

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"multiplayer is where it all happens" ......for abut 500 people worldwide perhaps. Good luck with putting all your eggs in that business case basket. 

 

After maybe 3000 hours spent on MP in various games im coming more and more to the SP side of flight sims. Whilst the AI is far from perfect (as my A20 virtual comrades prove daily) and some of the missions are as repetitive as the Daily Express (welcome to the concept of war - what else should I expect?) they do have distinct advantages over humans

 

1) They don't call me names when I shoot them down

2) They don't give away the position of my bomber on chat

3) They don't perpetually whine about FMs, server imbalance or bias

4) They do at least try to fly to a common purpose

5) They don't Alt Tab out when they loose the advantage

 

AI and SP are still important for sims, even in todays era of ultra connectivity. 

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I still think the AI is dumb, just like before patches. Depending on your flight style they keep doing the same thing over and over and over again, and the higher ai levels have stupid accurate aimbot aim, making you do stupid maneuvers and wasting precious energy only to evade their shots. But what really breaks it to me is the AI lawndarting into the ground, be it friendly or foe.

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1 hour ago, Mcdaddy said:

 

I agree, that is disappointing indeed. I can recall many good times playing with AI players on former game titles. However, it is a reflection of the market situation these days and in 2018 people by and large just don't want to play with bots any more. It's a thing of the past now. Things changed so much with this level of connectivity we have, and if you follow the money- in this day and age it's multiplayer where it all happens. 

 

Eh...no

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12 minutes ago, BOO said:

"multiplayer is where it all happens" ......for abut 500 people worldwide perhaps. Good luck with putting all your eggs in that business case basket. 

 

After maybe 3000 hours spent on MP in various games im coming more and more to the SP side of flight sims. Whilst the AI is far from perfect (as my A20 virtual comrades prove daily) and some of the missions are as repetitive as the Daily Express (welcome to the concept of war - what else should I expect?) they do have distinct advantages over humans

 

4) They do at least try to fly to a common purpose

Well said on all, but number 4 is exactly what I mean when talking about the AI flying in the spirit of the game unlike many Human players who simply do not.

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8 minutes ago, seafireliv said:

Well said on all, but number 4 is exactly what I mean when talking about the AI flying in the spirit of the game unlike many Human players who simply do not.

In the interests of balance I do have to say that sometimes that "common purpose" is more than a little lemming like....

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I looked back over the track where I shot down one 109.

 

I noticed that while I had been trying to shoot down this noob 109, ANOTHER 109 had been sidling up behind for a solution. He even took a shot at me that was wide which I didn`t notice, so fixated I was on my bogey. Then an I16 (one Denis something-or-other from my Squadron) dived in and fired at him and he broke away.

 

I had no idea a friendly AI from my squad had saved me from being shot down!

 

See, it`s these little things that the AI does that people tend not to recognise.

 

Cheers, Denis, the AI wingman! :)

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2 hours ago, DaveP63 said:

I would respectfully disagree. There are untold hundreds, if not thousands, of us that do not venture on line nor care to. AI is still important and while not perfect, it's still decent under most circumstances.

 

Agreed, single player has been and will always be a very large market. One of the main reasons IL-2 took the direction it has in the last year or so.

I have been doing it for more years than I care to think about, and still remain a SP only guy.

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Il-2 AI hopefully would get to the point where it will be very hard for us to deconstruct their behavior. In most games AI is usually a smoke and mirrors type of affair. Even F.E.A.R.'s life-like AI had a lot of trickery going into it but what made it really good was that it was very difficult to figure out or even notice that there were tricks happening right under player's noses.

 

The current AI for Il-2 has a tendency to show the sum of its parts while in game and not to mention its weaknesses. If our AI could do without showing itself and how it works to players, that'll give us a sense of depth and complexity that technically isn't there but appears to be there. 

 

It'll be very difficult and perhaps even expensive to code a life-like AI - in a sense one that does think like a fighter pilot. Most other games get around this by making theirs pretend their smart and never showing the players their weaknesses or limiting these weaknesses presence. This concept is kind of there when you observe and compare a Novice AI from a Veteran AI where the latter actually appears to be taking advantage of tactics dynamically up until such time you notice it's not doing something that makes sense. 

 

Battle of Britain had particularly clever AI that even made use of the sun to plan tactics in practice as well as a whole host of other believable behaviors. But in the end these were just scripted behaviors - just scripted in a way that hides deficiencies and makes it look like it's smarter than it actually is when observed by players. 

 

 

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I did have a somewhat suicidal 109 AI near stalingrad chase me over one friendly airfield as flak and AA shot at it and then to my home airfield at low altitude to be eviscerated.

 

I don`t care how much Jerry takes his job seriously, I doubt they`d fly low over two enemy airfields just to shoot me down...

 

Unless maybe they saw me say something they got offended by on an internet forum! :lol:

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