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BlitzPig_EL

Thoughts on the P39...

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13 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

 

That's because in that Yak-1B graph I was using "optimal rads": this is adjusting the radiators to keep around 100ªC for both water and oil temperatures, in the Yak the higher you go you can close more the rads so the lower drag counters the drop in engine power from 4k to 6k. In the MiG for example you need to open more the rads with altitude

With the fixed standard rad settings given by the devs which are 50% for oil and 35% for water this is the speed graph for the 1B comparable with IRL data.

It looks like it wasnt possible to do IRL other way we would see Yak1b maximum speed at 6km 600 kph IAS not at 4 km. Maby new Yak7b got better overheat model then previuos Yaks cause it looks it cant be such fast at altitude. Yaks during whole war got problem with overheting engines. So they shouldnt be faster at high alt. Maximum speed got peak at 4 km not more. And it is clearly see from engine power curve. All planes got maximum speed achivable about 1 km higher then supercharger peak value for Yak1 with M-105 Pf engine it is 2700m + 1km it should be about 3700m -4000m not more.

Bf109 G got maxium speed at 6,5-7km and they cant be faster higher cause engine loose power sharply and You still need sime radiator open cause heat exchange at high alt is worse then at low alt even if ambient temperature is such lower.

Edited by 303_Kwiatek

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Had a quick mission last night where I managed to down 8 He 111 in the P39. Normally with Yak or similar I would be out of ammo after 3-4.

 

May not sparkle in multiplayer but I’m enjoying the firepower offline. 

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13 hours ago, 303_Kwiatek said:

It looks like it wasnt possible to do IRL other way we would see Yak1b maximum speed at 6km 600 kph IAS not at 4 km. Maby new Yak7b got better overheat model then previuos Yaks cause it looks it cant be such fast at altitude. Yaks during whole war got problem with overheting engines. So they shouldnt be faster at high alt. Maximum speed got peak at 4 km not more. And it is clearly see from engine power curve. All planes got maximum speed achivable about 1 km higher then supercharger peak value for Yak1 with M-105 Pf engine it is 2700m + 1km it should be about 3700m -4000m not more.

Bf109 G got maxium speed at 6,5-7km and they cant be faster higher cause engine loose power sharply and You still need sime radiator open cause heat exchange at high alt is worse then at low alt even if ambient temperature is such lower.

 

Imho the 4k-6k thing is mostly because of the less performance loss of the engine with altitude than it should have, It's just that this 2000 meter gap gets compensated by the less drag caused by closing more the rads if you want to mantain the temperature limit, if the 1B had a more abrupt decay, you would be able to notice it even when closing the rads a bit looking for the optimal temperatures. Even if you change the radiator behaviour so that they have the same cooling capacity at max speeds between low and high altitude you still get less performance drop than it should (for example in the fixed "by airflow" position speed graph, which is they way the devs said the real speed tests were done).

In the case of the 1B at least for what I could read in a translated technical description/manual the Yak radiators were meant to keep the temperatures within the upper limits at sea level in standard 15ºC temperature at maximum level speed, this happens in the sim with the 1B, 50% oil and 35% water mantain around 108ºC both oil and water. At 4k you need 43% oil and 29% water, at 6k you need 26% oil and 16% water.

In the case of the G-2, at maximum speed at 1.3 ata at sea level the automatic water radiators keep 105ºC at 14% open position, at 7k they mantain 100ºC at 12% position, almost the same. The MiG needs to open them more with altitude,  5% oil and 20% water at sea level in continuous, and at 7k it needs 40% oil and 35% water. With the Yak-7B it's the oil radiator that causes the overheating problem, the water radiator works ok at sea level in it's neutral setting, but once the oil starts overheating it brings the water temperature up as well (before that it appears the water stabilizes around the 110ºC mark), which I suppose it's that way because it would have the older oil rad design from the earlier Yak-7s.

The Fw 190 A-5 with outer wing guns at full throttle does around 675 km/h at 9k with the cowling shutters open enough to avoid overheating, and with full open shutters it does around 640 km/h. There is a German graph showing around 615 km/h for an A-5 with the four cannons at 9000 meters, but I don't know the shutters settings they used, so it varies from a 25 km/h to a 60 km/h overspeed possibility. So I think first there should be corrected engine performance with altitudes, by comparing them with tests in the same specific conditions as real life (the same radiator positions for example), and once that's fixed then we can advance with radiator parameters such as cooling efficiency, drag penalization, etc. Because otherwise you have both engine and radiators as unknown variables which makes it harder to correct.

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10 hours ago, Porkins said:

She's a glass cannon. 

 

Edited by Godspeed
I wanted to bring truth to the public
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Back to the P39 discussion...

 

The more I fly it, the less I like it.  After your first pass all it's energy is totally gone, and you are left wallowing while the 109s and 190s just streak away from you.

It's only plus is that it can dive well, and that cannot be exploited often enough to matter.

 

Choosing a P39 over a Yak just no longer is an option for me for the kinds of missions that come up in career and co-op modes.

 

is anyone having any real success with this thing on the big DF servers?

Edited by BlitzPig_EL
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45 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Back to the P39 discussion...

 

The more I fly it, the less I like it.  After your first pass all it's energy is totally gone, and you are left wallowing while the 109s and 190s just streak away from you.

It's only plus is that it can dive well, and that cannot be exploited often enough to matter.

 

Choosing a P39 over a Yak just no longer is an option for me for the kinds of missions that come up in career and co-op modes.

 

is anyone having any real success with this thing on the big DF servers?

 

I haven't really tried yet so it's hard for me to stay just yet but my general feeling is that the P-39 is very good but it needs the right tactics to be employed otherwise its in trouble. It's not as easy to fly as some others but it has performance potential. I feel like I'm just starting to get a handle on how to work with it. Takes time to become a specialist on a fighter and it's only been a couple of weekends :)

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9 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

 

is anyone having any real success with this thing on the big DF servers?

 

Offline in Careers etc. it easily copes with 109s because the AI is still pretty stupid even on Ace but I have not had the courage to use it online as I think human pilots will run rings round it.  On the other hand I don't think it is any worse than the P40 or Lagg-3.  All three are really in the category of 'Great for killing bombers and ground targets and can get a kill if it gets to dive on a fighter  but otherwise just pray you never meet a LW fighter co-alt or higher."

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I haven`t tried the P39 yet, but isn`t this early P-39 the crap one? I believe it was the P-39 N which was a better performer.

 

Anyway, most of these P-39s did take a particular kind of way to fly. They were very stally, but once you got the hang of them they did a pretty good job. I always preferred the N1...

 

(Yes, I`m talking from old IL2).

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В 25.03.2018 в 18:25, 303_Kwiatek сказал:

It looks like it wasnt possible to do IRL other way we would see Yak1b maximum speed at 6km 600 kph IAS not at 4 km. Maby new Yak7b got better overheat model then previuos Yaks cause it looks it cant be such fast at altitude. Yaks during whole war got problem with overheting engines. So they shouldnt be faster at high alt. Maximum speed got peak at 4 km not more.

Its not true. The only yaks which had problems with overheating was Yak-9 with M-107A engine. M-105PF didnt had problems with cooling in 1943. In 1942 was recomended to install on Yak-1 oil- and water- radiators a similar to Yak-7, because of their better cooling characteristics.

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2 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

Offline in Careers etc. it easily copes with 109s because the AI is still pretty stupid even on Ace but I have not had the courage to use it online as I think human pilots will run rings round it.  On the other hand I don't think it is any worse than the P40 or Lagg-3.  All three are really in the category of 'Great for killing bombers and ground targets and can get a kill if it gets to dive on a fighter  but otherwise just pray you never meet a LW fighter co-alt or higher."

 

The P-39 maximum power setting has comparable power-loading to LW fighters. You can shot down them at co-energy but you have to work fast because it lasts only for 2m.

It's a little pity as Allison V-1710 engines were able to sustain high MP for much longer. It would worn out them after dozens of sorties, but still... :mellow:

Edited by Ehret

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In my opinion the BoK VVS fighters are  garbage Vs the BoK LW fighters.

 

The P-39 I've concluded is awful, bad acceleration, poor performance above 6k ft, looses speed very easilly, can at best compete with the LW for 5 minutes or less at low alt Vs LW 30min power setting and LW continuous power outperforms P-39s  anemic 15min power setting. Dive speed is not really an advantage when you are rarely high enough to take advantage of it.

 

Spitfire Mk V is just slow. Merlin 45 on the only decent power setting (12lbs @2850rpm gives like 12 Min of WEP) tops out at the same speed as the 109F-4 and G-2 at continuous. Sure, it's slightly faster then the G-4, until it powers up to 30min power setting and leaves the Spitfire in the dust. If you put it at 16lbs boost you get Yak-1b speeds for 3 minutes, then you can't use the 12lbs setting since youve used up all your allocated WEP and now you are stuck on painfully slow 9lbs power setting. And for all this, you get slightly better turn performance then the Yak, but far worse gun layout and ammo duration for the 20mm.

 

Now the Yak-7b, oh lord it overheats, 526kph on the deck my ass. To keep it cool you need to open radiators nearly wide open making you slower then a S.69 I haven't played on summer maps, and I would imagine it's worse there considering how wide open you have to go on spring/autumn maps. 

 

BoS's Yak-1s.69 and La-5(F) are better vs the LW BoK fighters then the VVS BoK fighters themselves, especially the Western Allied aircraft.

 

 

 

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Some results on the Kuban autumn map flying just over water in the P-39.

The 30 cals are removed, time is 11:00, winds to none, full fuel load, rads at 60/45, all MP at 3000 rpm except for the nominal and flying coordinated.

 

486km/h at 39.5" MP at 2620 rpm (counted as nominal - unlimited)

498km/h at 41.5" MP - 15m (counted as combat power, 66% mix)

522km/h at 46" MP - 10m (counted as combat power, 66% mix)

542km/h at 51" MP - 5m (counted as emergency power, 90% mix)

573km/h at 60" MP - 2m (counted as emergency power, 100% mix)

 

The combat and emergency modes seem to have individual timers - you can switch to other to extend boost time, usually. It isn't too hard to escape from the LWs - I have seen 109s smoking trying to keep up with their 1m boost/emergency. :)

However, you have to be sensible in your moves in the Aircobra and track all those settings. She isn't as comfy as the 109 in this regard, indeed.

 

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It seems clear that as far as the BoK aircraft and accompanying collectors planes go, the La-5FN is a must buy for anyone who wants a top-of-the-line VVS fighter(with an eye to competing with the LW lineup online) .  But were there any other options for the developers to choose from for VVS fighter aircraft of that timeframe?

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Shes not the best fighter but at high speed and in dives shes a beast and doesn't lock up nearly as bad as a 109. Use that to your advantage. 

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On 3/25/2018 at 11:05 PM, Godspeed said:

 

I TOLD YOU I COULD HOLD IT

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On 3/17/2018 at 9:24 PM, Krupinskii said:

I'm not sure what you were expecting, it's actually much better than I thought it would be. Aside from being a little slow, climb rate is superb as well as turn rate, even at low speed. It gets squirly the slower you are, but it's nothing a bit of rudder can't compensate for. At full throttle it has more than enough power to hang with a 109 at least through the first few turns.

 

Practice firing the 37mm only, yeah it's not easy, but with time it's certainly possible to hit at a consistent rate. Yes, it would be nice to change the convergence of different weapon groups, but unfortunately that's not in the game yet.

 

If you really want an easy button, the La5FN is where it's at.

I was kind of thinking something similar. First flight in the P-39 and I managed to down a few 109's and some 110's and thought to myself "I figured this would be a little tougher to fly..."

 

That said,  I've baked the engine a few times, so I'm still learning that side of things. 

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Here's an utterly useless piece of trivia.  William Hootkins, the actor who played Porkins, was interrogated by the FBI during the investigation into the JFK assassination.  Turns out Ruth Paine--Lee Harvey Oswald's landlord--taught an elementary school Russian class in which Hootkins was a student.  In the course of the investigation, Hootkins and his fellow students were interviewed regarding their teacher.  

 

But of course we all know who really killed Kennedy--the evil Galactic Empire.

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11 hours ago, Rebel_Scum said:

Here's an utterly useless piece of trivia.  William Hootkins, the actor who played Porkins, was interrogated by the FBI during the investigation into the JFK assassination.  Turns out Ruth Paine--Lee Harvey Oswald's landlord--taught an elementary school Russian class in which Hootkins was a student.  In the course of the investigation, Hootkins and his fellow students were interviewed regarding their teacher.  

 

But of course we all know who really killed Kennedy--the evil Galactic Empire.

Oliver Stone told it true. I was on the grassy knoll. 

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On 27/03/2018 at 2:18 AM, RoflSeal said:

In my opinion the BoK VVS fighters are  garbage Vs the BoK LW fighters.

 

The P-39 I've concluded is awful, bad acceleration, poor performance above 6k ft, looses speed very easilly, can at best compete with the LW for 5 minutes or less at low alt Vs LW 30min power setting and LW continuous power outperforms P-39s  anemic 15min power setting. Dive speed is not really an advantage when you are rarely high enough to take advantage of it.

 

Spitfire Mk V is just slow. Merlin 45 on the only decent power setting (12lbs @2850rpm gives like 12 Min of WEP) tops out at the same speed as the 109F-4 and G-2 at continuous. Sure, it's slightly faster then the G-4, until it powers up to 30min power setting and leaves the Spitfire in the dust. If you put it at 16lbs boost you get Yak-1b speeds for 3 minutes, then you can't use the 12lbs setting since youve used up all your allocated WEP and now you are stuck on painfully slow 9lbs power setting. And for all this, you get slightly better turn performance then the Yak, but far worse gun layout and ammo duration for the 20mm.

 

Now the Yak-7b, oh lord it overheats, 526kph on the deck my ass. To keep it cool you need to open radiators nearly wide open making you slower then a S.69 I haven't played on summer maps, and I would imagine it's worse there considering how wide open you have to go on spring/autumn maps. 

 

BoS's Yak-1s.69 and La-5(F) are better vs the LW BoK fighters then the VVS BoK fighters themselves, especially the Western Allied aircraft.

 

 

 

 

I have to agree there on the p39, it's nearly impossible to do anything against real humans, you have no chance. Yes it's better than the p40 but since we're not fighting 109E7 anymore that doesn't change anything. I died many times on it on WoL without achieving anything.

 

Some say " who it's an awesome diver ! Really good plane ! Climb very fast !"

No, no and no. As you already said to be able to dive you must gain alt in the first place and the problem is that you can't climb on cruise power, you eventually have to burn all your 15 minutes to be able to climb at a speed that is even there not nearly acceptable.

I tried to enjoy this plane but I won't take it online anymore, that's a no go.

 

And this is where I disagree, well for the yak 7 it's true that it's overheating and the problem isn't like said the water radiator but the oil radiator that can't bear full power. But you can still manage things.

 

The Spitfire is slower than every other LW plane that's true but you have to remember what jurassik park taught us " spitfires always find their way..." 

Joke aside it climbs well and you can use it to your advantage, it doesn't mean it's easy though.

 

And then you forgot the most sucessful kuban fighters, well they are not in BoK package but they belong to this theater the yak 1b and the la5fn. I've no clue about the second one since I've never seen it on WoL but the yak 1b...it definitly gives the VVS an edge, it can compete against the 109 and is better than the 190.

 

And for the LW BoK is reducing the gap, the G4 is not really better than the G2, it could even be the contruary and the 190A5 is not something to be afraid of (except if you're flying the p39,in this case: fear everything ! ). 

The G6 is nice but it is for it's offensive capabilities, not for the flight performances.

 

 

To conclude BoK is probably the area where you can find the better of VVS planes.

That's my own thoughts about it of course but it's pretty close to what I saw on WoL.

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4 hours ago, Eicio said:

 

I have to agree there on the p39, it's nearly impossible to do anything against real humans, you have no chance. Yes it's better than the p40 but since we're not fighting 109E7 anymore that doesn't change anything. I died many times on it on WoL without achieving anything.

 

Some say " who it's an awesome diver ! Really good plane ! Climb very fast !"

No, no and no. As you already said to be able to dive you must gain alt in the first place and the problem is that you can't climb on cruise power, you eventually have to burn all your 15 minutes to be able to climb at a speed that is even there not nearly acceptable.

I tried to enjoy this plane but I won't take it online anymore, that's a no go.

 

 

You can "rest" the engine if left on continuous for a while, resets the timers on combat/emergency power. Using combat to climb then "resting the engine once you get to a desired altitude will reset the time so you can use combat/ emergency power once you get into combat. When its fast and has some altitude to work with the p39 is an absolute monster. 

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And your average multiplayer time is 1 hour ? No, and even in singleplayer the p39 burns fuel at some high rate so you don't have time to "rest".

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3 minutes ago, Eicio said:

And your average multiplayer time is 1 hour ? No, and even in singleplayer the p39 burns fuel at some high rate so you don't have time to "rest".

 

Use auto lean. Gas lasts much longer. 

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2 hours ago, Eicio said:

And your average multiplayer time is 1 hour ? No, and even in singleplayer the p39 burns fuel at some high rate so you don't have time to "rest".

You only need like 5mins to get it back. I will admit that the p39 isn't for everyone but its better than this thread makes it appear. 

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My experience with the p39 is that it is absolutely superb on the attack and utterly useless on defense. Its more than fast enough to run people down and maneuverable enough to keep on them with an energy advantage, but as soon as you are at a disadvantage it simply isn't fast enough to run away nor maneuverable enough to dogfight them.

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On 3/18/2018 at 12:41 AM, BeastyBaiter said:

...It...won't hang with 109's at medium to high altitude, but then what will except other 109's?

 

The La-5FN Series 2.  Welcome to parity.  

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On 26/03/2018 at 7:31 AM, BlitzPig_EL said:

Back to the P39 discussion...

 

The more I fly it, the less I like it.  After your first pass all it's energy is totally gone, and you are left wallowing while the 109s and 190s just streak away from you.

It's only plus is that it can dive well, and that cannot be exploited often enough to matter.

 

Choosing a P39 over a Yak just no longer is an option for me for the kinds of missions that come up in career and co-op modes.

 

is anyone having any real success with this thing on the big DF servers?

 

I'm having quite a few successful sortees in it. I'm trying to put together enough content to finally put out a video on it. Had a 3 kill and 2 kill sortee last night. 

 

People on the Russian side don't like it because it doesn't fly like an energy kite like the other Russian planes. People on the German side don't like it because Elon Musk can't put it into space. 

 

Both are approaching the plane wrong. It's an Australian dropbear. Hang out at fairly high altitude and drop on people, put them down. It's basically a Russian 190. It has enough horsepower for 2-5min to trap the German in combat because you outhorsepower him. His only hope is to try to extend. Almost all the P39s flaws aren't relevant. 

 

Engine in the back? If you get bounced you *should* be dead anyway. 

 

Can't follow 109s into a climb? Russia only has 2 planes that can anyway. 

 

Poor energy retention? I have been vocal that it should be upped but at 1500horsepowrr it's not actually that bad as long as you're not fighting at altitude. 

 

In fact I'm somewhat surprised more people aren't enjoying the p39 on WoL as the best case scenario for an airacobra is people charge you in the face and of all the Germans I've dogfight like 65% of them will try this.

 

It is VERY annoying when you pump bullets into 109s and they don't die though...must have put about 15 rounds into a 109 last night and he was still combat capable. American Rifle calibers FTL. 

Edited by GridiroN
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11 minutes ago, GridiroN said:

It is VERY annoying when you pump bullets into 109s and they don't die though...must have put about 15 rounds into a 109 last night and he was still combat capable. American Rifle calibers FTL. 

 

Not enough hits -  15 rounds of 30cal are roughly equivalent to 3 50cal and three are survivable.

 

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Strange to hear people complain about the P-39s guns.   I have found that is one of the few *good* things about it.  I don't generally use the 37mm for Air To Air but I find the other guns really effective.

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I kind of changed my mind on the P39, I still think it's not comparable to other soviet fighters but... it grew on me at some extend I only fly with it on WoL and I'm getting a few kills with it. I'm much more comfortable with the engine management, energy retention, armament and I found it... quite gratifying in the end.

 

So it'll take some few hours (in mp, the best training you could get is to face real humans) to master and finally realise that it's not fast but not a slug either. And I really did hate the p39 at the beginning, felt helpless in it but not anymore.

 

It seems like I do owe some apologies to nightrise here, this plane is definitly the underdog that doesn't show it's capabilities in the first flights and the engine is actually sturdier than I thought it was, I really do like it now.

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Just now, Eicio said:

So it'll take some few hours (in mp, the best training you could get is to face real humans) to master and finally realise that it's not fast but not a slug either. And I really did hate the p39 at the beginning, felt helpless in it but not anymore.

 

Just don't get energy trapped in the P-39 and even then, odds are better than in the P-40. IMHO, the Aircobra is more of "hit and runner" than a "pure" dog-fighter. Pokryshkin had used well thought team tactics, but could out-maneuver enemies, too. Barrel-rolls were particularly effective - I will learn them, eventually.

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I dont advise barrel rolls tactics since it's roll rate gets pretty bad at high speed. And a nice thing I found is that the mirror doesn't reflect the clouds, so you can place yourself right under the clouds and watch in the mirror if there is no threat above the clouds layer.

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12 minutes ago, Eicio said:

I dont advise barrel rolls tactics since it's roll rate gets pretty bad at high speed.

 

If you speak about the P39, that is not true, it's roll rate is really really good at high speed.

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1 hour ago, Eicio said:

I kind of changed my mind on the P39, I still think it's not comparable to other soviet fighters but... it grew on me at some extend I only fly with it on WoL and I'm getting a few kills with it. I'm much more comfortable with the engine management, energy retention, armament and I found it... quite gratifying in the end.

 

So it'll take some few hours (in mp, the best training you could get is to face real humans) to master and finally realise that it's not fast but not a slug either. And I really did hate the p39 at the beginning, felt helpless in it but not anymore.

 

It seems like I do owe some apologies to nightrise here, this plane is definitly the underdog that doesn't show it's capabilities in the first flights and the engine is actually sturdier than I thought it was, I really do like it now.

I'm gonna be honest i didn't like it at first either. Its different to all the other Russian aircraft for the most part and it took a little while for me to unlock its secrets but once you find out how to fly it it does really well. 

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I still need to find my way with it, but so far its rear-mounted engine and tricycle gear reflect one thing: it flies like a modern fighter, and you have to treat it like it. You can really work up the angle of attack for deflection shots and evasive manoeuvres, but it takes time to get a good feel for the rudder input required to keep it stable in that envelope. Roll rate is good, control authority across all envelopes is great (just remember to trim nose-down when going very fast), and the durability is amazing! It might be rendered useless in combat after a few hits, but it remains flying for a long time after that so you can always bail out or put it down safely.

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I found that Pokryshkin's tactic suited well for the plane. I managed to dive into two FW-190s at WoL a couple of days ago at high speed and at very short range a burst of the 37 mm and the .50 MGs completely wrecked them. But you have to climb fast after it and your time window for firing is very short. If you miss there are no second chance. I never use the .30 MGs.

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I am totally in love with the P-39 so far, only bad thing i learned the hard way is, if you get a fuel leak it runs dry in just a few minutes...

Edited by [TWB]Jizzo

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