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AI Waypoint Flying Speed

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Loving  the new campaign system!     One thing I'm struggling with when I'm not the flight leader,  and I'm not sure if this is a me problem or an AI problem.    The AI are flying at a much higher speed than I can waypoint to waypoint.   They are leaving me behind!

 

I'm doing a German campaign at Stalingrad, and I'm currently in the BF109 G2.    The waypoints on the map are calling for speeds of 470 kph.   With full tanks, I'm only able to do 450 kph without getting into combat mode engine wise.     Because of this, the AI end up way ahead of me, and I'm always playing a game of trying to cut corners angles wise to close the gap.

 

Anyone else noticing this?  Am I doing something wrong?

Edited by bmsimpson93

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 it happen to me too, and problem got worst if the leader got a more powerful aircraft than you !

 

edit:my workaround is, i cut corner like you and i get into moderate combat mode to keep up  , little  higher altitude help a bit too cause relative speed, and

 getting into normal mode in a very shallow dive to give a break to the engine before the objective zone, it s all not ideal but it is my tools to manage the problem

Edited by Lemon

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Absolutely agreed. I am  flying a career with G2/G4 on the Kuban map with cruising speeds of 470km/h for fighter missions and 460km/h for ground attack missions. This means you fly all the time with max. combat power, to not get lost.

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It seems a general issue with German 109s (possibly also 190). I do not fly them much so not very experienced on them for BoX. P{ossibly others play manual settings to maintain it. It was reported during testing for several aircraft flying too quick to maintain position (p40 and others I forget which). Devs fixed them. I also very belatedly reported it for 109G4 testing campaign but far too late for them to do much. Made worse in summer weather (does not change between seasons). And now flying E7 on Moscow. It asks for 410kph with a 250k bomb slung. This appears to require 1.28ata to maintain position, 1.3 is 5 min combat and 1.23 30min limit. Was able to just squeek along during testing but have got a 90+ km GA mission (in low cloud does not help) and engine keeps blowing trying to keep vision.  The AI just go flat out as long as they can then seem to slow down, by then we have burnt up. Even they do not gain on each other until a general slow up occurs. Slightly counter intuitive that you are having to slow down once behind enemy lines.

I feel the German engine automation simplicity stops people experimenting boost and pitch. In reality there were stories during ww2 BoB about experienced luft pilots being requested to slow down by new pilots unable to utilise manual settings for max acceleration. But our engines life are limited by timers.

As has been suggested you could go for airstarts, but I personally dont like that, does not feel real. But I am an oddball and dont use time compression either - never even considered it (RoF even always waited for engine to warm up).

With our feed back sure the developers will gradually sort out the problematical which seem mostly German fighters.

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On 3/17/2018 at 10:33 AM, bmsimpson93 said:

Loving  the new campaign system!     One thing I'm struggling with when I'm not the flight leader,  and I'm not sure if this is a me problem or an AI problem.    The AI are flying at a much higher speed than I can waypoint to waypoint.   They are leaving me behind!

 

Anyone else noticing this?  Am I doing something wrong?

 

Blame me. Enroute airspeed was one of my pet issues during testing. But due to time constraints I concentrated on the P-39, P-40, Spitfire and Yak-1 ser 127. This is something I will add to the bug reports.

 

Here's what you should do, or the approach I used. Take a screenshot of the mission map and highlight the airspeed. Then over a few missions (different fuel loads and bomb loads if available) note the typical airspeed you can achieve in Continuous Power. Sometimes I found that the mission airspeed on the map was lower than what the AI was flying. And as you report, the AI was hauling ass. Might I suggest when finding a cruise speed, don't fly at Max Continuous Power, use a little less power. In RL it is a basic tenet of formation flying that the Leader allow some excess power to his wingmen in order for them to catch up or not struggle to maintain formation.

 

If I were king of the simulation, I'd have all the 109s and 190s cruising at perhaps 400-420 kph enroute. There is no tactical reason to cruise into battle at the speed of heat, stringing your wingmen out behind you.

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Thank guys!  That explains it then.  If you would be so kind as to report it to the devs on the testing side it would be appreciated.  As you noted, there really isn't a reason to cruise above 400 to 420 for these planes.   We have nothing to do a lot of time in transit, so being able to at least formation fly a bit is part of the fun.   Right now it's really stressful.  Especially watching your flight stir up the target area and then getting to fly into the maelstrom well after it's all hit the fan!

 

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I'm flying f2 and f4 on Moscow. The way I do it is aggresively get to cruising speed (450km/h most of the time as has already been said) at 1.3 ata and then I can usually back off to 1.0 ~ 1.1 ata while staying in formation.

Note that you need to keep the ball of the turn and bank indicator in the center as you're otherwise slower too.

Maybe give that a go. Can't speak for any other aircraft yet.

 

I think the reason for the 109s cruising speed is that at 450 km/h the turn and bank indicator ball stays in the center on it's own without rudder input. Makes it quite nice to fly!

 

Cheers :salute:

Edited by Psyrion

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Found my 109E7 not keeping up is my own inexperience in it. Too much automation make you assume its all automated, and E7 has manual radiators. Thanks to some forum hints. Found it starts with them 50% or so open. Closed em up, formed up, set them to keep temp 80-90deg and found I could keep up pretty easily at 410kph. And as Psyrion said after that was sitting below combat setting. Wont help those whose rads are auto, but learnt something new (also that my 5 wingmen could die in the morning and most of em again flying in the afternoon - but thats another issue :)  ). Quite a good feeling 140km flight to target and then back to rtb, rather than the more usual 25min mission and done.

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HE111 is struggling a bit with an AI lead, the waypoints I've seen so far have been at 290km/h with 92% fuel and a full bombload. Its doable but the formation tends to be quite strung out for a very long time and in some cases even by the time you reach target. Which in bomber formations is a death sentence. In order to catch up you need to burn on combat power. I find dropping the fuel load a bit helps me catch up somewhat (running at 80% to their 92%).

 

Would be good if heading to the first and maybe second waypoint was a bit slower to bunch up the formation after take-off before heading over enemy lines, then the speed can pick up a bit when flying level.

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3 hours ago, Mukai said:

HE111 is struggling a bit with an AI lead, the waypoints I've seen so far have been at 290km/h with 92% fuel and a full bombload. Its doable but the formation tends to be quite strung out for a very long time and in some cases even by the time you reach target. Which in bomber formations is a death sentence. In order to catch up you need to burn on combat power. I find dropping the fuel load a bit helps me catch up somewhat (running at 80% to their 92%).

 

Would be good if heading to the first and maybe second waypoint was a bit slower to bunch up the formation after take-off before heading over enemy lines, then the speed can pick up a bit when flying level.

 

I'm not a level bomber guy. But I will report this too in the Testers' forum.

 

edit: Reported...BTW love your country. Spent two great weeks in County Mayo, Galway, and Clare last September. My bride wants to move there.

Edited by busdriver

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2 hours ago, busdriver said:

 

I'm not a level bomber guy. But I will report this too in the Testers' forum.

 

edit: Reported...BTW love your country. Spent two great weeks in County Mayo, Galway, and Clare last September. My bride wants to move there.

Awesome! There's alot to worry about as a bomber without also lagging behind and being picked off one by one. A fix would be most welcome :) I'm still enjoying my experience for now though :)

Thanks for reporting it :) Sure Irelands a grand spot, if it doesn't rain too much when ur here hahaha. I'm actually from around Limerick originally before moving in my early teens, so I'd have spent a lot of time in Clare on holidays myself :)

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While I've not had any major issues flying bombers with an AI lead, I would think an additional "catch up" waypoint would help keep the formation together. Mind you, with a 92% fuel load, you could probably circumnavigate the map several times. That a He-111 can get off the ground with that load is pretty amazing.

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It's a common knowledge in real life during a formation flying leader suppose to fly with slowest practical cruising speed, so the rest of airplane can match up. Since wingman tend to maneuver more excessively and therefore loosing "energy"  more. I'm surprised it nothing has done anything in this department since ROF yet :(

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13 minutes ago, SCG_PanzerPajamas said:

While I've not had any major issues flying bombers with an AI lead, I would think an additional "catch up" waypoint would help keep the formation together. Mind you, with a 92% fuel load, you could probably circumnavigate the map several times. That a He-111 can get off the ground with that load is pretty amazing.

 

1 minute ago, sdflyer said:

It's a common knowledge in real life during a formation flying leader suppose to fly with slowest practical cruising speed, so the rest of airplane can match up. Since wingman tend to maneuver more excessively and therefore loosing "energy"  more. I'm surprised it nothing has done anything in this department since ROF yet :(

 

Yeah like i said if the first waypoint the AI lead was a bit slower then that would be great and allow for the formation to bunch-up before meeting the enemy. I don't know how easy that'll be to implement or not (I've no experience in game development) but the waypoints all display a 'speed to' measurement so maybe its there already and just needs a tweek.


However I've seen on the forums that some other planes require you to operate the plane to peak efficiency in order to maintain formation (the 109 planes seem to suffer somewhat it seems), so it'll probably need to be looked at on a plane to plane basis.

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If only they'd fly this fast in combat instead of turning all the time...

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Its not only the speed. The AI is just bad in every aspect and needs a complete overhaul. I fly the Moscow campaign in an F2 and F4 and it is just horrible. I do fly as lead and keep 1.0 ata and the AI often weaves left and right for no reason and overall has problems catching up. Aircombat is a complete desaster. If i for example dont shoot enough enemy planes down fast enough or are not able to make most of them them chasing me, my 109 comrades  just die. The rare situations were the AI could take a shot, they allways shoot below the enemy because they cant pull enough lead, its rediculous. The 109 is just target practice for the enemy AI.

 

Not much has changed after all that time. I would find it much better when the AI would just focus on surviving with climbs and dives and not that turn turn turn bullcrap we see all the time. It would not be the best solution but much better then now. For example, i had a mission were i shot at a Mig in a headon and managed to hit the engine. So i ignored him and flew towards the other 2 Migs and two of my wingmans chased that smoking Mig. Guess what happens, right, the Mig managed to shot down both of them and flying back towards his base and crashlanded somewehere.

 

So it is great that we SP guys get something but the first step should have been the AI. I would be totally fine with the old campaign system with some minor tweaks in the mission itself, when the AI were not so bad. Actually, i miss the old campaign system for what it was. I didnt saw it as a real campaign and used it for what it was for, a mission generater in a historic timeframe. I liked it to never be forced to fly long, boring escort missions. I just choosed the mission type i like to fly with the plane i wanted to fly. It was great for getting into action fast.

 

Now we need to be squadron commander to skip unwanted missions. What i like about the new campaign is that we can adjust waypoints and can airstart at the 1 waypoint. This helps when you are flying from Dugino airfield and that we can cancel the mission as soon the missiongoal is accomplished and we are above friendly territory. I would really enjoy the new campaign but the AI just destroys all the fun.

I have 124 kills and my highest soring squadmate has 11 kills and these are just numbers. He didnt actually killed 11 enemys. The only kills my AI comrades manage to get are some lucky shots in an actual mission or more frequently in generated missions. But most of the time they all die in a few days and get replaced with new ones that are also die in the next day/s. And the AI still seem to focus more on the player then on other planes and they still chase you even when out of render range.

 

Sorry for my frustration but after all that time we still dont have proper AI. The AI isnt of the same high level standard as the rest of the game. This game deserves more then that. Im so desperate that i would pay money just for AI development. Call this expansion "Battle of Artificial Intelligence" or sometihng like that. Im serious!

 

Btw, i flew just over 24h in my current campaign so i dont make things up. Just my obervation!

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Yeaa.. happens all the time. I really wish there was some info that your leader pass to your squad about throttle power and pitch ets.  So you can fly at the same speed as they.

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3 hours ago, Ishtaru said:

If i for example dont shoot enough enemy planes down fast enough or are not able to make most of them them chasing me, my 109 comrades  just die. The rare situations were the AI could take a shot, they allways shoot below the enemy because they cant pull enough lead, its rediculous.

There's no general AI, it has 4 different skill levels, and your comrades were probably rookies. Dunno whether campaign difficulty also matters here, in several SP games "hard" difficulty means that the enemy has a +1 bonus, while your team has -1.

Anyway, you can open the campaign mission file in the ME and check what skill level individual AI planes are set to.

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3 hours ago, Ishtaru said:

Its not only the speed. The AI is just bad in every aspect and needs a complete overhaul... Aircombat is a complete desaster. If i for example dont shoot enough enemy planes down fast enough or are not able to make most of them them chasing me, my 109 comrades  just die... The 109 is just target practice for the enemy AI.

 

Not much has changed after all that time...

 

I would be totally fine with the old campaign system with some minor tweaks in the mission itself, when the AI were not so bad. Actually, i miss the old campaign system for what it was.  It was great for getting into action fast.

 

And the AI still seem to focus more on the player then on other planes and they still chase you even when out of render range.

 

Sorry for my frustration but after all that time we still dont have proper AI. The AI isnt of the same high level standard as the rest of the game.

 

My response is NOT a personal attack, simply a DIFFERENT opinion than yours.

 

You're probably playing on Hard difficulty and Dense activity settings if your AI mates are dropping like flies. And I suspect that you're simply one of those gamers that AI presents zero challenges for you (124 kills in 24 hours). Previously the AI would come after me like I was a homing beacon. Now I find that I am not the only target for them. Sometimes I can actually attack AI unobserved.

 

The old campaign system wasn't much of a campaign IMO, just a slightly different version of the QMB. I found the AI back then terrible, requiring tricks to get friendly AI to engage rather than be high speed cheerleaders circling around the fight as I fought 1-v-X. I play Moderate difficulty and Dense activity, and I have AI mates score kills, I've observed their kills. We've been killing 109s and 190s.

 

In testing I remarked that some gamers would complain about boredom on escort missions or ground attack missions if they had more than a minute of two before getting to the action. As it turns out, to make a campaign historical in nature using actual airfield locations requires longer enroute times to the frontlines. Perhaps you will have better success with the QMB to get the quick fix you're looking for? Perhaps the Devs will come up with a way to have airstarts closer to the action.

 

For all the flaws with the current AI that we are trying to track down, I think it is vastly improved.

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2 hours ago, busdriver said:

 

 

 

You're probably playing on Hard difficulty and Dense activity settings if your AI mates are dropping like flies.

 

Sorry to take us slightly off-topic.... so the "dense" setting is referring to air activity? I was (probably incorrectly) assuming it was ground.

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28 minutes ago, Scottvdken said:

 

Sorry to take us slightly off-topic.... so the "dense" setting is referring to air activity? I was (probably incorrectly) assuming it was ground.

 

I think "dense" is both air and ground from what I experience while comparing it with "scattered". Oh and "dense" can bring your PC to a crawl which might be due to a lot of singlethreaded calculations being done on the CPU side. Check it out and try it.

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FWIW, I agree with Ishtaru. Been out of the sim for almost a year. Was burned out, mainly because of the AI behavior.

I remember making a lot of posts on this very forum to get awareness from the devs. Suddenly Han wrote that he thought it was fixed after some mission where he was chased by AI even when they were heavily damaged. Anyway, they fixed it (or so they said) but I was a bit salty about it and quit the sim for quite some time.

 

This patch (best patch ever IMHO) brought me back and I love the flying once again. But all the issues brought up by Ishtaru reminded me of the struggle we had so many months ago. that same struggle is still there. AI chasing the player, friendly AI not following orders and staying in some attack area way too long.

AI needs some love, I just hope the devs will find the time for it.

If they need funds, I'll be happy to purchase AI V2 from them.

 

B+

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How long the AI remains in the attack area is a simple matter of mission logic - not AI code.

Thus easily adjusted.

 

 

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3 hours ago, busdriver said:

Previously the AI would come after me like I was a homing beacon. Now I find that I am not the only target for them. Sometimes I can actually attack AI unobserved.

 

It is true, the AI gangbang is gone and i also noticed that the AI gets target fixated which gives the oppurtunity to get kills without them reacting. That is a huge plus but what i mean is that i sometimes see old patterns. Like for example when a friendly AI is closer to the enemy AI then me, i get picked instead of the closer one. But this can just be coincendence and i take that point back.  

 

3 hours ago, busdriver said:

The old campaign system wasn't much of a campaign IMO, just a slightly different version of the QMB. I found the AI back then terrible, requiring tricks to get friendly AI to engage rather than be high speed cheerleaders circling around the fight as I fought 1-v-X.

 

Thats right. I said it was good for what it was, a random mission generator. And i liked it for that. I also like the current system as a campaign and i like to see some of it further improved in the future. The AI has improved when it comes to attacking groundtargets but they still are far from efficient. They (the AI) just learned to do something and follow orders so it is also an improvement. :)

 

3 hours ago, busdriver said:

In testing I remarked that some gamers would complain about boredom on escort missions or ground attack missions if they had more than a minute of two before getting to the action. As it turns out, to make a campaign historical in nature using actual airfield locations requires longer enroute times to the frontlines.

 

I still play full missions even if i had to fly 170km to the target area and back. I just dont like to do this everytime but that is not a problem here. You still can airspawn 30km or so away from the action waypoint. You just need to be squadleader to alter the flightplan and you will allways spawn near the first waypoint and you can end the mission as soon as you are above friendly territory. Btw another tip is, we dont need to adjust the loadout for each plane individually. Just remove all planes from the flight except for yours and make your adjustments. After doing that just add as many planes to the flight you like and all planes will have the same loadout.

 

3 hours ago, busdriver said:

For all the flaws with the current AI that we are trying to track down, I think it is vastly improved.

 

I agree, it has improved but it is still bad in my opinion and BoX deserves the best AI we can get. A big improvement would be to make the AI loves life more then death and be more careful when picking fights and running away if possible when the odds are against them. More extending, diving and climbing, more variety in doing things. They sometimes remind me of muslim fanatics who blew themselfes up just to go to heaven and having eternal sex. :o

 

3 hours ago, sniperton said:

There's no general AI, it has 4 different skill levels, and your comrades were probably rookies. Dunno whether campaign difficulty also matters here, in several SP games "hard" difficulty means that the enemy has a +1 bonus, while your team has -1.

Anyway, you can open the campaign mission file in the ME and check what skill level individual AI planes are set to.

 

I guess the AI level just determines how good they can aim and how far they can detect you. Maneuvering and decision wise i dont see a difference between the AI levels.

 

The last mission in a 110 was me with 3 rookie AI wingmans  at the easy campaign difficulty setting. All enemy planes were also on the lowest skill level and all friendly fighters were aces it seems. Maybe there is a bug that gives your flight rookie AIs? I need to test that. But even if, i just think it has something to do with the stiffness at higher speeds that makes the AI 109 so bad. The AI cant handle it.

 

I did a quicktest with 4 ace 109 F4s versus 4 Mig3s at the lowest skill level with the 109s at 3000m and the Migs at 2000m and 10km distance between them in a face to face situation. The fight took awefully long with just 2 destroyed Migs. One was landing at an arifield after it has depleted its ammo and the other one seems to run out of fuel due to a fuel leak and breaking off. The 109s survived with one damaged and leaking fuel caused by the Mig that ran out of ammo lol. Both kills were headons, no 109 managed to get into the six of a Mig, just to fast.

 

Sure it was just one test and isnt really meaningful but i thought i share that experience.

Edited by Ishtaru

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3 hours ago, busdriver said:

We've been killing 109s and 190s.

You were flying on russian side. The issue is, that AI flies fighters always like turnfighters, which doesn't make too much sense for german fighters, that is why your russian AI squadmates were able to shoot down german fighters, but it doesn't work the other way round. Even with medium difficulty I was ending the day with almost each squadmate shot down, so I start almost every day with nearly a new squadron.

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I actually think the AI is pretty good. I only have 50 hours in the sim and am not a great flyer. I play on medium and have not had issues with friendly AI flying into each other. The enemy AI is a decent challenge for me. When I do something stupid the AI normally makes me pay the price (especially tail gunners...). Occasionally it does seem like they're just turning in circles and not trying any other tactic, but other than that I think it's quite good. YMMV

Edited by Porkins

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I'm with Isharatu here. Yes there were some improvements, but not enough at all. You can get one or two convincing missions here and there, but overall, it is just a too frustrating loosing half of your squat in a totally unecessary way. It doesn't make too much sense to have all the pilots having their own name and such when they get replaced every two or three missions due to stupid decisions.

 

Not to mention that you get followed back to your airfield by the enemy and then get shot to pieces while he also gets shot to pieces by my AA. They just don't have a will to survive. And the AI seems to fly Russian planes better than German planes just because they can turn an burn better generally. 

BoS deserves better than this, even more so now with the brilliant campaign system we have.

Cheers

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1 hour ago, Yogiflight said:

You were flying on russian side. The issue is, that AI flies fighters always like turnfighters, which doesn't make too much sense for german fighters, that is why your russian AI squadmates were able to shoot down german fighters, but it doesn't work the other way round. Even with medium difficulty I was ending the day with almost each squadmate shot down, so I start almost every day with nearly a new squadron.

 

Oh I like to fight the 109s and 190s in the vertical, sometimes one or two AI will fight me that way. I've had two gorgeous maneuver kills against 109s, one that tried to convert from high aspect front quarter to my six, and the other in a low altitude looping (more precisely...two pitchbacks and one sliceback) fight, only to die from a well placed high deflection shot by his Leader. But that is uncommon. You are right, the AI could fight better, it could shoot on every pass at a ground target, it could patrol in better formations, it could RTB at a certain level of battle damage or fuel state. FWIW in testing, AI frequently left the fight when damaged.

 

I have an early 109E-7 campaign going (I like to drop bombs). My guys are holding their own so far, I think an I-16 and Lagg downed.

 

1 hour ago, Porkins said:

I actually think the AI is pretty good.  I play on medium and have not had issues with friendly AI flying into each other. The enemy AI is a decent challenge for me.  Occasionally it does seem like they're just turning in circles and not trying any other tactic, but other than that I think it's quite good. YMMV

 

I've still seen AI mid-air collisions, fortunately they're becoming less common. What do you think about AI behavior with Hard Difficulty selected? I was getting hammered by AI as I tried to look around and admire the activity.  

 

 

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2 hours ago, Ishtaru said:

The last mission in a 110 was me with 3 rookie AI wingmans  at the easy campaign difficulty setting. All enemy planes were also on the lowest skill level and all friendly fighters were aces it seems. Maybe there is a bug that gives your flight rookie AIs? I need to test that. But even if, i just think it has something to do with the stiffness at higher speeds that makes the AI 109 so bad. The AI cant handle it.

We're in the same boat, although I fly MiGs. Control stiffness at higher speeds applies as much to MiGs as to 109s. My experience is that I score 2 to 3 times more kills than my AI mates, although I'm a bad pilot, period. I'm not the flight leader. What happens most of the time is that I shoot down (or damage) a 109 chasing one of my comrades, then I shoot down (or damage) another 109 chasing another of my comrades, etc, etc. Most of the time I have to struggle with the controls, and I feel that the 109s could easily evade me if they were not occupied with one of my comrades. They're faster, accelerate better, and turn better. I have the feel that all planes involved are rookies, but I haven't checked. Sometimes I come across to a single 109 that bites like the others do not.

Perhaps the devs used rookie level AIs to avoid total annihilation and to keep mission losses within historical limits. Perhaps AI levels will be higher as the campaign proceeds. Perhaps it could be argued that the base AI level should be increased by one already at the start of the conflict.

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I've often wondered if part of the problem is not taking into consideration the takeoff time, waypoint turn time, etc. I remember in Falcon 4 where you could adjust the flight parameters, you would have to enter a much slower cruising speed than what the AI would then actually do. How is the AI calculating this, is it based on arrival time to a certain waypoint? Or is it accelerate to the given speed regardless of arrival time?

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10 minutes ago, sniperton said:

What happens most of the time is that I shoot down (or damage) a 109 chasing one of my comrades, then I shoot down (or damage) another 109 chasing another of my comrades, etc, etc.

My experience, when I try to help comrades, that are chased by enemy fighters, my comrade always turns against me, to not let me get the easy kill, so I always have to outturn my comrade to get behind the enemy fighter. Do you guys have the same experience? I find it quite odd, that my comrade tries to make it more difficult for me to help him.

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I haven't noticed it, probably because I'm not fixed on helping Comrade A or Comrade B, but to shoot down any enemy hanging on the tail of any comrade. I'm a bad pilot, I repeat, with no plan or whatsoever, I simply pick up an enemy within reach, and Hail Mary ;)

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1 hour ago, busdriver said:

 

I have an early 109E-7 campaign going (I like to drop bombs). My guys are holding their own so far, I think an I-16 and Lagg downed.

 

 

I have an E-7 campaign going that I switched to Hard/Dense and it has been brutal so far. The last two or three missions we've been bounced before reaching the first waypoint and end up dropping the ordinance and getting into a furball before crossing into enemy territory. At least I'm not far from the airfield for setting down my crippled plane, I don't think my wingmen fare as well. I should note I'm also on the closest airfield to the frontline (in BoM) so I guess I'm asking for it a bit. Still I've been game for these and they are nice and harrowing.

 

I noticed another area of potential improvement before I had changed my difficulty/density settings. My entire flight ended up killed or missing in an airfield attack. Things went fine for the initial run with bombs dropped to good effect and no serious damage taken by my flight. However, they then proceeded to continuously strafe the airfield with guns until they were all knocked out of commission. I'm not sure if we missed some primary objective on the first run that an RTB wasn't triggered or what. It may also have just been a one off.

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1 hour ago, busdriver said:

 

Oh I like to fight the 109s and 190s in the vertical, sometimes one or two AI will fight me that way. I've had two gorgeous maneuver kills against 109s, one that tried to convert from high aspect front quarter to my six, and the other in a low altitude looping (more precisely...two pitchbacks and one sliceback) fight, only to die from a well placed high deflection shot by his Leader. But that is uncommon. You are right, the AI could fight better, it could shoot on every pass at a ground target, it could patrol in better formations, it could RTB at a certain level of battle damage or fuel state. FWIW in testing, AI frequently left the fight when damaged.

 

I have an early 109E-7 campaign going (I like to drop bombs). My guys are holding their own so far, I think an I-16 and Lagg downed.

 

 

I've still seen AI mid-air collisions, fortunately they're becoming less common. What do you think about AI behavior with Hard Difficulty selected? I was getting hammered by AI as I tried to look around and admire the activity.  

 

 

The few times I've played on hard I found it very lively. Too good for me, which is a good thing. 

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13 minutes ago, mort said:

I have an E-7 campaign going that I switched to Hard/Dense and it has been brutal so far...

 

I noticed another area of potential improvement before I had changed my difficulty/density settings. My entire flight ended up killed or missing in an airfield attack. Things went fine for the initial run with bombs dropped to good effect and no serious damage taken by my flight. However, they then proceeded to continuously strafe the airfield with guns until they were all knocked out of commission. I'm not sure if we missed some primary objective on the first run that an RTB wasn't triggered or what. It may also have just been a one off.

 

I'm not smart about this stuff, but Gambit21 is. Perhaps the airfield attack logic/triggers/parameters could be changed so AI only makes one or two passes before RTB. Or perhaps it's a function of the Hard difficulty setting. I'll see what happens in my E-7 campaign and report back.

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I agree that ground and pound missions are a bit too lossy. The problem seems that the fighter bombers stay over the target until they are out of ammunition. I costs way too many lives, so one or two strafes would be enough, maybe depending on the AA on the ground.

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14 hours ago, mort said:

I have an E-7 campaign going that I switched to Hard/Dense and it has been brutal so far. The last two or three missions we've been bounced before reaching the first waypoint and end up dropping the ordinance and getting into a furball before crossing into enemy territory.

As you are one of the very few that have mentioned flying E7 campaign - have you noticed if your AI wingmen discard their bombs when this occurs. I have had it happen sevceral times on mine, but does not appear that they drop the ordnance to defend themselves. Then if they survive they do not rtb but appear to attempt to continue mission even if damaged/smoking. And had another where the 5th and 6th members of flight attempted to engage (or were engaged) enemy aircraft enroute but the remainder flew on unconcerned (presumably because they were still trailing a long way).

Mines been brutal as well on hard/dense but expected, ground attack duties are gonna be brutal for both sides and AI flak is pretty effective. Think only survivor is sqadron commander and me, barely 10 days in. And of course the AI does not really utilise a German fighters benefits very well (it turns and burns primarily and dives to deck) and the E7 does not have large advantages to play with especially if engaged low, slow, strung out and carrying bombs. Just 2 or 3 I16s wreck havoc in those circumstances.

 

14 hours ago, mort said:

My entire flight ended up killed or missing in an airfield attack. Things went fine for the initial run with bombs dropped to good effect and no serious damage taken by my flight. However, they then proceeded to continuously strafe the airfield with guns until they were all knocked out of commission. I'm not sure if we missed some primary objective on the first run that an RTB wasn't triggered or what. It may also have just been a one off.

I also had one where they all died/failed to rtb during airfield attack due to flak. I believe that the main objective is to damage at least one enemy aircraft on the field. I got hit and missed with bomb but staggered back over our lines. But, at least during testing, the success banner seemed to appear if an enemy aircraft was destoyed. I have no evidence that is set in stone, but just my experience then. I used to just go for largest concentration whilst rest drew flak. But it does not appear that your AI go for aircraft as a priority. And will hang around until out of ammo or the objective is met or they all die.

I can try putting these comments into the tester area if its still used as feedback unless they are reading this.

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