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6./ZG26_Emil

Don't give us the kill until the enemy hits the ground

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I have the same complaint (if you can call it that) with ROF.

 

It feels wrong and gamey to be told the enemy a/c is dead before it hits the ground. I prefer not be 100% sure of the enemy aircraft's destruction and have to watch the aircraft spiral down smoking and finally hit the deck.

 

I would hope others feel the same way.

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Agreed. I'd also really like the kills - and my own crashed plane - to stay on the map until I choose to end the mission. I wish the smoke would stick around, too.

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I agree also.And If I may add, "don't give any kills" until a pilot has Landed(in friendly territory)!

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I agree also.And If I may add, "don't give any kills" until a pilot has Landed(in friendly territory)!

Good suggestion to think about. May prevent gamey behaviours.

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Oh please make sure the kill system is good in this game...Il2 had and has one of the best systems there is..

 

You must have the option (as some wont like it on arcade servers) that your encouraged to fly your bird home to get any kills you have got on your sortie, half points for bailing out then depending on where you bail risk being captured.

 

Please think about the Scoring system from the get-go.. it makes a game so much more enjoyable imo if its done right

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Yeh its a good point although that's more down to the distribution of 'points' for kills rather than the actual kill itself. Basically the aircraft is dead whether you land or not but to be told the enemy is dead before it hits the deck is pretty ridiculous and should be down to what you observe with your own eyes.

 

I'd agree that points for kills should get collected once you've landed but I suspect that could be something scripted server side and is a slightly different thing.

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The other problem is that as soon as the engine seizes the pilot bails out. No crashlands. The pilot bails and you hear: "Karaya - Freie Jagd" - it gets old quickly.

 

I really like the shared kill system of CloD. It helps a lot with shoulder shooting, and kill stealing which was a big problem in RoF.

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The shared points is the 'only' good thing about CoD's scoring system...it leaves a lot to be desired..

 

In a nutshell the scoring system as a whole needs to have some serious thought put into it, its a game breaker imo and really does ruin the enjoyment of your game time..

 

I also agree and has been said many times on other forums that 'you dont want to force a playing/flying stlye on others' which is a fair point hence why you should have a basic and advanced scoring system for different servers

Edited by Carl-Fritzi
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Good suggestion to think about. May prevent gamey behaviours.

 

It might also cause stats hungry players to forget about the mission (escorting bombers for instance) as soon as they shot someone down and then fly home to get their kill added to their stats, which can be considered as one of those gamey behaviours.

 

I think kill streaks are the best way to solve this and kills should be reset to zero if the pilot dies or if he gets captured. But kills should count, as long as the pilot is alive and as soon as the kill has been accomplished (which, like stated in the OP, should be when the plane gets destroyed).

 

Overall, i would like it if the servers or mission creators could have a serious input on how scoring in general gets counted. Imho, fulfilling mission objectives should be the most rewarding accomplishment, not the number of ground or air kills (but of course destroying ground and air targets could then be part of the mission objectives).

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any chance we can get on topic? If anyone starts a thread about stats and points I'll gladly sign it!

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I have the same complaint (if you can call it that) with ROF.

 

It feels wrong and gamey to be told the enemy a/c is dead before it hits the ground. I prefer not be 100% sure of the enemy aircraft's destruction and have to watch the aircraft spiral down smoking and finally hit the deck.

 

I would hope others feel the same way.

 

RoF kill messages can be turned off on the server.  The problem is that people continue to shoot up aircraft long after they have killed it.  This leads to lots of dead pilots (and end to kill streaks) that would have survived had the attacker known he already got the kill.  I assume that's why kill messages are displayed in virtually all RoF servers.

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I agree with basically all comments above. I would really prefer that the 777 server not keep a MP stat tally. They should handle single player and career stats while individual servers handle scoring and stats as they see fit. Currently in RoF, neither the server nor the mission creator has any say over how stats are scored. The mission objectives aren't even scored! Some tried to trick the system by parking a bunch of trucks at the objective so that numerous vehicle kills would pack onto the objective score. Not a very elegant way to operate IMO.

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I also prefer the system of "claiming a kill". There are some referable programers in ROF community, which know how to do it properly. But I am very confident to the developers, that they will implement a good scoring.

Maybe the add the scoring system of the different nations, that have been fighting in WW2.

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Problem for SP is plane might unspawn before hitting ground, according to what can happen in ROF already...so no kill.

That's probably why devs prefered the other solution (actual).

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I would prefer a system more like WWIIOnline where it does not display your kills until you land. This unclutters the chat buffer and removes a lot of that shoulder shooting since they wont get instant gratification for doing it. Plus it is so much more realistic and removes those kills that appear 20 minutes later when someone dies while trying to rtb.

 

RoF's kill system is so broken that it is a is used as a running joke in the RoF community. 1 bullet in your enemy and they run out of gass 45 min later and gues what... kill of xxx by yyy. That sort of nonsense I would prefer not appear in BoS.

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RoF kill messages can be turned off on the server.  The problem is that people continue to shoot up aircraft long after they have killed it.  This leads to lots of dead pilots (and end to kill streaks) that would have survived had the attacker known he already got the kill.  I assume that's why kill messages are displayed in virtually all RoF servers.

 

That sounds a lot like real life....Hmmm.... :P

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That sounds a lot like real life....Hmmm.... :P

 

I suspect most real life fighter pilots did not follow their victims to the ground to make certain that they were dead.  It would put them in a very vulnerable position.  Pissing away all your energy is not good for life expectancy.  People do it in games because they don't actually die if they're shot down.

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Agreed with OP although I woulld take it further and not award a kill until it is confirmed in the op's log at the end of the flight/session.

 

I would also have unconfirmed or probables for those enemy aircraft that escape, are still airborne after a certain time, over their own side of the lines and out of visual range of friendly aircraft (realistic as opposed to sim view distance).  I would also include shared kills rather than last bullet counts.

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I'd like to see a compromise.

 

Say a particular timeframe after the aircraft is shot down - maybe a minute or so after the pilot is killed, pilot bails out or the aircraft is un-flyable before awarding the kill. 

 

I think calling the kill relatively early is realistic. A Mustang driver at 25k would not have chased a Fw to the ground through heavy cloud cover to confirm his kill. Suspected kills that dove or flew out of visual contact accounted for most of the over-claims (by both sides) during the war. Relatively few were maliciously overstated.

 

I actually liked much of the original Il2 scoring system. I like the 100% points for landing the kill, 50 for making it to friendly territory and surviving, and 10 for the kill but not surviving. If people hate the 10% I wouldn't be opposed to dumping it.

 

I'm not a fan of shared kills but I'm completely opposed to last bullet gets the kill as well. The kill should be awarded to the pilot who does the most damage, probably expressed as a %. Overkilling the plane after the someone else gets the 51% (or 60 or whatever the magic number is) margin should count for nothing unless the second guy actually kills the pilot and not the plane. But I also don't want my teammates chasing a crippled plane with a good pilot for ten minutes, just to get a kill, while abandoning the mission.

 

Lastly, I like getting the kill/points for damaging an aircraft that ultimately is a write off but makes it back to friendly territory. After all we are often killing the plane not the man. IRL this may have been credited with a kill or, heaven forbid, an overstated kill.

Edited by A1FltTrn=HerrMurf
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I'd like to see a compromise.

 

Say a particular timeframe after the aircraft is shot down - maybe a minute or so after the pilot is killed, pilot bails out or the aircraft is un-flyable before awarding the kill. 

 

I think calling the kill relatively early is realistic. A Mustang driver at 25k would not have chased a Fw to the ground through heavy cloud cover to confirm his kill. Suspected kills that dove or flew out of visual contact accounted for most of the over-claims (by both sides) during the war. Relatively few were maliciously overstated.

 

 

Lastly, I like getting the kill/points for damaging an aircraft that ultimately is a write off but makes it back to friendly territory. After all we are often killing the plane not the man. IRL this may have been credited with a kill or, heaven forbid, an overstated kill.

 

I don't know what the difference would be between awarding a kill after a mission ends (and the Intel officer confirms a kill) and having a delay before awarding the kill. the latter often happens like this at the moment in RoF anyway.  You plink away at a plane, from several miles away, you get a lucky shot in his fuel or engine, he continues flying, possibly oblivious, however and several minutes later, just as he is about to touch down, his engine stops and a kill is awarded.  The pilot of the damaged aircraft, if he's savy and got a big mouth, or fast fingers, however shuts off his engine, to prevent a kill being awarded and then gives off about how unfair the world is and what a complete and utter selfish p**ck you are for trying to shoot down a defenceless aircraft with no engine.

 

I think the doubt about a kill is actually quite good, so I think not knowing until afterwards is quite good.   If a kill is in doubt, rather than a magic message appearing on screen or a player tag vanishing, then an attacking aircraft has to continue attacking until it is a definite and potentially waste good time, position and ammunition on an already doomed target, not to mention leaving themselves or their team mates vulnerable to attack themselves.

 

One reason I like the idea of a time limit for a kill being awarded, if the attacked aircraft is still airborne and out of sight of enemy forces, is because some of the kills awarded, maybe even a lot of the kills, might be given, not so much because of damage inflicted, but simply because of incompetence by the pilot of the (barely) damaged aircraft.  Given the added difficulty of landing in BoS, lots of kills might be awarded for no reason other than rubbish landing skills rather than the skills of any attacker, artificially inflating the scores of competent pilots over and above the hoi paloy.  This reflects that real life pilots, while not totally immune to cock ups, had at least some competence and training in basic flying skills and most of the time could be relied on to return an aircraft in a reusable state even if it needed a patch here and there.

 

While not all sides, during the war, used the term "probables" or "unconfirmed" I think it suits CFS quite well.  The computer knows, but that is an highly unrealistic and doesn't replicate the real life confusion and doubt that often characterised air warfare.  I think I would even like to see a pilot claims button thingy.  After a mission the pilot clicks on how many aircraft he would like to claim for, destroyed-probables-damaged, The virtual ops officer then shows him/her the actual score.  It would be fascinating to see the difference between what the pilot thinks he gets and what the virtual ops officer actually awards him.  A tally could then be kept of the discrepancy to add to all the other stats that are collected by the player.  Points could be awarded or discounted as to how accurate this tally was.

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Personally I would like to not get a kill message (or points) until I have landed, perhaps only in a de-brief. However, this is mainly a GUI-question. There should be very little problem in having a system that holds back the messages and only apply the points upon landing (or bellying or jumping and surviving over friendly lines). In an ideal world, we'd have both message-on-kill and message-on-landing, whatever setting the player or the server admin prefer.

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Also, If we shoot the enemy down but our virtual pilot is killed later during the same flight or on landing, then no kill is awarded for that sortie as it cannot be reported or confirmed as the pilot is dead.  

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"You plink away at a plane, from several miles away, you get a lucky shot in his fuel or engine, he continues flying, possibly oblivious, however and several minutes later, just as he is about to touch down, his engine stops and a kill is awarded.  The pilot of the damaged aircraft, if he's savy and got a big mouth, or fast fingers, however shuts off his engine, to prevent a kill being awarded and then gives off about how unfair the world is and what a complete and utter selfish p**ck you are for trying to shoot down a defenceless aircraft with no engine."

 

^^ This is the sign of a really bad defensive pilot who deserves to lawn dart his plane into mother Russia anyway. Who flies straight and level in a combat zone, especially while being engaged from several K away? I suppose the answer is; the guy who chirps about how unfair and selfish the shooter is after he plows a field or stacks it up at the airfield. :rolleyes:


Also, If we shoot the enemy down but our virtual pilot is killed later during the same flight or on landing, then no kill is awarded for that sortie as it cannot be reported or confirmed as the pilot is dead.  

I'm good with that. I didn't mind the 10% solution in 1946 but did find it a bit odd. I often think people forget there is a game component of this simulation. Points are important to gamers. Gamers are important to the evolution/survival of the sim from a financial standpoint. Simmers are too few to fund this game/sim completely on their own and we are not adding simmers at the same rate we may attract gamers/targets to the genre.

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I rather like the idea of points and I'm sure it will be present in BoS as it is in RoF.  However it has to be meaningful rather than simply an accumulation of bragging rights.

 

It has to be a reflection of skill and airmindedness rather than just kills accumulated.  It should reflect kill to death, it should reflect returning to base and landing, preferably without writing off the player aircraft, to claim kills.  It should take account of mission goals, if the mission is to bomb a factory then covering fighters should lose points for every friendly bomber lost and if the mission goals aren't achieved then even more points are lost.  Extra points should be awarded for dangerous tasks, like bomber pilot or even more so rear gunners. 

 

With the above in mind, and given that kill streaks are wiped out when pilots die, maybe kills can be awarded at the end of a mission regardless of landing the kills but more importantly no points are awarded unless the pilot lands at his home base to claim them, with points deducted for crashing, or landing at the wrong airfield.  So pilots are awarded the kills to add to their streak but unless they land them they are ultimately pointless (no pun intended) only lasting as long as the streak, with no other cumulative long term benefit.

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Completely disagree with original post, RoF kill recognition lets you know a pilot is defeated when he's already hopeless but (occasionally) still able to glide to land. Or, in case of BoS, bail out. And makes shooting defeated planes by other pilots tryying to steal the kill pointless, they know it's done.  What you propose will encourage people to not stop shooting while target is in one piece, just to make sure game will register their kill.  Messy and unrealistic... Oh,  it'e Eastern Front we're talking, so maybe realistic. But still messy.

 

 I prefer not be 100% sure of the enemy aircraft's destruction and have to watch the aircraft spiral down smoking and finally hit the deck.

 

 

Many people who prefer to shoot hopeless enemies for hell of it, and want scoring system that encourages it, will agree :).

@ Hagar: RoF is a WW1 sim, WW1 aviation was all about bragging rights. Scout pilots were glamorous, pilot who scored five kills was a hero, while pilots who completed recon/bombing objectives day in, day out were workhorses. Everytime I go for ground attack  / photo recon mission in RoF , I can't help seeing scout players as distant, best avoided predators concerned scoring abstract points while I do meaningful job - it feels realistic :D.  I agree BoS should take more pragmatic approach.

Edited by Trupobaw

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As I said, the ideal situation would be some sort of customization system to points. Perhaps there could even be several point systems, one for raw numbers of areal victories, one only counting "landed" victories and one counting several factors like following objectives.

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k/d is actually what I am most concerned with in a df server and should be it's own line item, independent of points. On a historical server I am most concerned about the mission.

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I have a small logbook to register my kills. I really dont care about any game's kill systems and its bugs. You Devs could find a real ww2 logbook and make a pdf copy so we can print and use :)

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Actually, that's not a bad idea ^^

 

But not a PDF. A digital log book, modeled off a real log book that automatically plots your kills, with aircraft type and geographic area, plus the "points," awarded. I'd really like that. Sort of a mini debrief at the end of missions. You'd need a separate one for online and offline/campaign missions. If done right it could be pretty immersive for the end of your missions.

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show scores at the end of the round only. this should stop k/d dick measuring.

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I think simple is best. No shared kills the person who does the most damage gets the kill. kills are counted when enemy airplane crashes or lands wheels up. Kills and aircraft destroyed will be the same thing.

 

No 2.3736385 kills or messy scores like that...just single digit score.

Edited by SIDWULF

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I completely agree! That is a point that itches me already for a while. It definitely is "gamey". It allows you to divert to other targets as soon as the propeller stops or the pilot is killed of that plane despite not imminently visible from the shooter. I think the message should just pop up when the plane crashes or lands in enemy territory or perhaps even if landing on friendly territory (optionally only when outside airfield).

 

As a server option: If plane manages to land back at homebase no kill should be given. Explanation for "only as a server option": I think it should be left to the server operator if he likes to have a kill message anyway even if the damaged plane lands on ground because this might incite pilots not to chase down smoking planes in order to secure their kill. Other server operators might prefer to run more realistic settings and accept that some pilots will chase down smoking planes so these cannot land.

Edited by sturmkraehe

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As a server option: If plane manages to land back at homebase no kill should be given. Explanation for "only as a server option": I think it should be left to the server operator if he likes to have a kill message anyway even if the damaged plane lands on ground because this might incite pilots not to chase down smoking planes in order to secure their kill. Other server operators might prefer to run more realistic settings and accept that some pilots will chase down smoking planes so these cannot land.

 

That is how RoF works.  The server operator can shut off kill messages.  I think Syndicate shut them off a couple years ago, but they were back on within a few weeks.

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If you see the pilot bail out, can't we call that a kill?  The plane is unlikely to have a successful forced landing unmanned.

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If you see the pilot bail out, can't we call that a kill?  The plane is unlikely to have a successful forced landing unmanned.

It's how it would have been reported IRL.

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Realistic for VVS (at least in 43+ period), for instance?

 

1) If you see a plane which is obviously damaged by your fire (or pilot is bailing or etc), you report a kill or probable. Ground observers or forces find the wreckage? Your kill is awarded. Else, no. (this was a bit of a point of contention - there were situations where kills which would should get awarded were not awarded, and you'll see some Soviet aces mention it as well)

 

2) Plane crashes maneuvering to shoot you or maneuvering in a dogfight with you? You claim a kill, if wreckage is found / it is confirmed by ground observers, you also get a kill. Yes, maneuver kills counted. A famous female pilot scored a kill with an unarmed transport plane like that - a 109 stalled trying to get a shot on it.

 

3) Ramming kills counted, naturally.

 

4) Kills counted whether the pilot survived or did not survive, of course, as long as it was observed / confirmed.

 

The VVS had a system of shared kills tallied separately from personal kills. LW had a decimal system to the best of my knowledge.

 

Kills should be tallied in a realistic way, imo. The "land to get a kill credited" is gamey. Whether it should be displayed ingame immediately or not is another thing though. Kill in air to air combat is always aircraft destroyed, not pilot killed. Whether the pilot was killed or not was not relevant - if the aircraft goes down, it's a kill.

Edited by Cpt_Branko

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