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Cannon shell changes?

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I was wondering if anything had been done to cannon ammunition in the most recent patch. I've noticed before that HE ammunition is killing things a lot more reliably than it used to compared to AP.

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I can also vouch for this. 

 

Unless the breakfast cereal I started eating Thursday morning has made me become an Ace overnight, I've been consistently destroying more wings and engines with the MG151/20. If confirmed, a very welcomed change, since HE always felt very underwhelming to me.

 

Also, INB4 that one forum member rudely reminds us all that since it was not in the patch notes there is no possible way that the HE power was accidentally or purposefully changed in this release.

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20mm has not been changed but, if you are flying the G6, the 13mm's are killers in their own right. I can now kill both Pe2's and A20's in a couple of passes with MG only. MG's are only AP as far as I can tell. 20mm improvement is strictly placebo.

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There's a lot of folks who tend to agree EVERY plane in the sim feels a little too fragile, and I have a tendency to agree. I would really love for a damage model update to be in the works.

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7 minutes ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

 MG's are only AP as far as I can tell.

 

This is another question that I've been wanting to ask. Are you sure about this? because if you score hits with only the 13mm's you will still see the explosions and puffs of smoke that you'd expect to see from cannon hits. I wonder if it's jsut a graphical bug, or there is some HE in the mix.

 

And you are right. The 13mm's make a mess of whatever they hit.

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Wiki indicated there were both ammo types. I made my guess based upon the GUI graphic and damage inflicted by the rounds. Could be either or both I suppose.

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5 hours ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

20mm has not been changed but, if you are flying the G6, the 13mm's are killers in their own right. I can now kill both Pe2's and A20's in a couple of passes with MG only. MG's are only AP as far as I can tell. 20mm improvement is strictly placebo.

 

Yep, its the 13mms that are making the difference. MG151/20 has not changed from my observations.

 

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The 13mm is like having a faster little MG151/15 with mostly HE ammo. I think the rate of fire and velocity of the MG151/20 greatly diminishes its time to kill on its own. Most of the time you only hit one or two times in a snap shot scenario at most. The MG131 and MG151/20 both compliment each other nicely since the velocity is similar so you can lead targets from further away and have all guns connect. You will hit more often with your 13mm, but when both connect its incredibly effective. 

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6 hours ago, Field-Ops said:

The 13mm is like having a faster little MG151/15 with mostly HE ammo. I think the rate of fire and velocity of the MG151/20 greatly diminishes its time to kill on its own. Most of the time you only hit one or two times in a snap shot scenario at most. The MG131 and MG151/20 both compliment each other nicely since the velocity is similar so you can lead targets from further away and have all guns connect. You will hit more often with your 13mm, but when both connect its incredibly effective. 

I generally take the 108 every time I fly the G-6 because I have the mentality of a WH40K ork and I just want big boom :lol:

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13 hours ago, 7./JG26_Shadepiece said:

There's a lot of folks who tend to agree EVERY plane in the sim feels a little too fragile, and I have a tendency to agree. I would really love for a damage model update to be in the works.

 I thought the Axis planes were way too fragile Before this new patch . IMHO. 

Edited by II./JG77_Con

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14 hours ago, Pupo said:

I can also vouch for this. 

 

Unless the breakfast cereal I started eating Thursday morning has made me become an Ace overnight, I've been consistently destroying more wings and engines with the MG151/20. If confirmed, a very welcomed change, since HE always felt very underwhelming to me.

 

Also, INB4 that one forum member rudely reminds us all that since it was not in the patch notes there is no possible way that the HE power was accidentally or purposefully changed in this release.

 

I confirm this. Mg151 way more efficient

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No changes on the 20mm, placebo effect.

Edited by Staiger

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I strongly disagree...

 

it is now MUCH easier to cut russian airplanes in half with the 20mm as well.

 

I suspect its not the 20mm that is better, but VVS planes that are less strong than before.

and no  Its not the 13mm effect only. I tested the same flying the G2 and F4

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3 hours ago, FZG_Merlin said:

I strongly disagree...

 

it is now MUCH easier to cut russian airplanes in half with the 20mm as well.

 

I suspect its not the 20mm that is better, but VVS planes that are less strong than before.

and no  Its not the 13mm effect only. I tested the same flying the G2 and F4

 

NOTHING changed with the damage model of any of the planes. If there was , it would have been mentioned in the release notes.

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44 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

NOTHING changed with the damage model of any of the planes. If there was , it would have been mentioned in the release notes.

 

That's not always the case. I havent tested the german 20mm so I really have no opinion on this but if they are actually better now, it's about time.

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At first I thought that mg151 was improved and that Luke is wrong.

I had streams of some lucky shots in Bf 109 F,G (La5FN exploding in 2-3 20mm shots) when I started 3.001 version, but now with some hours in the career mode mg151 has not changed.

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I disagree. I have tracks to prove it.

 

the time in which i emptied loads of 20mm on yaks and they kept flying with leaks all over the place is over.. they now break apart very easely. (or more like a german plane, Id say..) 

Edited by FZG_Merlin
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16 minutes ago, FZG_Merlin said:

I disagree. I have tracks to prove it.

 

the time in which i emptied loads of 20mm on yaks and they kept flying with leaks all over the place is over.. they now break apart very easely. (or more like a german plane, Id say..) 

 

Once again...placebo and subjective opinion.

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Well, given that multiplayer is somewhat redesigned its thinkable that packageloss of hits, for whatever reason, is less pronounced. I also had the feeling of needing less hits in MP with german 20mm. 

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I was doing a qmb test with the G6 with 20mm pods and Mk108 against 8 Ju52s. I needed like a half second burst to shred each one. Maybe it's just the 13mm mg. Maybe it's the 30mm he. Or maybe they secretly made German guns better DUN DUN DUN DUN!!!!

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It may not be a placedo, there is a line in the update post that might imply changes on cannon explosions : "34.  Damage to large objects from small explosions now calculated more accurately;".

 

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I read that planes are supposed to break up more realistically in this patch, so maybe that's why HE shells seem more effective. The rounds aren't stronger - the targets are weaker.

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21 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

NOTHING changed with the damage model of any of the planes. If there was , it would have been mentioned in the release notes.

 

17 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Once again...placebo and subjective opinion.

 

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2 hours ago, CaptainFlemme said:

It may not be a placedo, there is a line in the update post that might imply changes on cannon explosions : "34.  Damage to large objects from small explosions now calculated more accurately;".

 

 

 

I didn't see it in that way but this could definitely be the reason.

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1 hour ago, 216th_Jordan said:

I didn't see it in that way but this could definitely be the reason.

 

I think that is more related to bombs, you could have a 50kg fall right beside a big ass building/object and the bomb blast would wreck the entire build, just like if it would fall just in the middle of it....

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I just had intercept ground attack planes career mission in which I had attacked 4 Sturmovicks. 2 of them I shredded in one pass in short burst, but the third absorbed enormous damage from 7.92 machine guns and 20mm cannons. I finally finished him in the fourth pass in which he lost elevator and one wing. The last Sturmovik shot me down unfortunately and ended my ironman career:angry: Mg 151 damage is unchanged

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Campaign, me in I-16 equipped with Shvak cannons and a 109 E-7 as target : OMG, I never, never felt that I could indefinitely put all my ammo on a target with quite hight accuracy (plenty of sparkles and puffs all over there) and the plane was still flying, starting to grey smoke only by the end... All my ammo. Pretty decent accuracy to say the least. 109 looking like it was able to get back to home.

 

But just an example. Thinking thanks to exemples never leads to great thought.

Edited by Solmyr

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I have the same impression, now it looks like the focke wulf is a total killer, before it was strange how Russian planes kept flying, now the break into peaces every time, love it

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5 hours ago, SJ_Butcher said:

I have the same impression, now it looks like the focke wulf is a total killer, before it was strange how Russian planes kept flying, now the break into peaces every time, love it

No change in 20mm damage for the update. Complete placebo effect.

Edited by Mcdaddy

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All these feeling based subjective assumptions mean nothing.

 

Anyone willing to prove anything -  set up a static (planes on the ground, not moving), objective and repeatable scenario, count the number of shells needed for specific kind of damage, repeat at least 20 times, calculate average and standard deviation. Compare the two weapons in exactly the same setup. Post tracks. Then we can discuss.

 

Our brain simply isn't wired to do a statistical analysis - it sees what it wants to see, and ignores what doesn't suit its preconceptions.

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On 17/03/2018 at 7:53 PM, LukeFF said:

NOTHING changed with the damage model of any of the planes. If there was , it would have been mentioned in the release notes.

 

I am not claiming that damaged model was updated or not but there are changes that have not been mentioned in the release notes. One example is the limitation box for VR head movements. Before the patch you would hit an invisible wall before you "touch" the 3D model of canopy frame. Now you have a lot more room to move you head before you reach the limits. This is a huge change for me and probably other VR users.

6 minutes ago, CrazyDuck said:

Compare the two weapons in exactly the same setup. Post tracks. Then we can discuss.

 

It's pointless now since we cannot do the same test on the old version, before the 3.001 patch.

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