Jump to content

Recommended Posts

39 minutes ago, 307_Tomcat said:

 

Lining up for shot hardly can be described as a turn. 

 

 

 

F15 can pull and sustain 7G , no WW2 plane can do that. But this is out of human capabilities. Tight turn is U 180 deg turn where radius and rate is optimal (edge of stall), for that you need lots of lift - I mean speed and structure hard enough to stand that force. To keep that speed you need  power and piston engine can't give same as jet do.

 

How much G an f15 can pull is irrelevant to my point .My point is In DCS i never seen human vs human or human vs Ai an F15 beat a ww2 prop in a tight turn .

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I have the impression that both 46' and WT made a brick instead of a plane. Let's see what happens with the team. After reading the opinion of ZachariasX on the Spitfire I am more confident enough that it will be as realistic as they can provide.

Edited by LF_Gallahad
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

Even modern jets will not be able to defeat ww2 planes at their own game, tight turns .

I tried in dcs f 15 vs spitfire .You can't defeat the spitfire if at it's own game  That is in a tight continuous tight turn you have to energy fight or use a trick.

 

Given these aircraft are many generations apart, I rather feel you are setting up a straw-man. However, you appear to be inadvertently confirmed one of the points that I was trying to make: while an F-15 may not have the radius of a Spitfire (well, high-alpha weirdness aside), it can sustain a high rate of turn due to sheer power (T/W). A 262 has no chance of anything similar: no matter how well the design was crafted, if it is pulling significantly more g than any opponent, it will quickly run our of airspeed and options. 5 g (using an OMA scenario) requires over 2.2 x stall speed (probably quite a bit more). 2.2 times stall speed =  almost 5 times the drag at stall speed. That is a lot when your T/W is 0.3:1 and your wing-loading is over 51 lbs per square foot.

 

This is basic stuff, no doubt people round here can do a far better job of the forces / energy involved.

 

Quote

Even the mirage 2000 with and without fly-by-wire .I could do a kulbit with that plane(fly by wire disabled) and even than you can't defeat the spitfire at it's own game , i can get a shooting opportunity if a do 75% of kulbit but even then i have one shot after that i'm dead or i extend(run away)   ; don't know if i can post dcs vids here , will try later or send you the link in PM.

 

But again, you are using a modern aircraft with a T/W greater than 1:1 as a comparison to a 1943 design with nothing like that excess thrust. Again, given that 'good' and 'turn' are about as scientific a term as 'my pizza tastes better than yours', I was trying simply to drop some physics into this. Being faster and not turning is great. Being fast and having to induce getting-on-for-double the force on your aircraft in order to remain with a target is not good: with only c. 4,000lbs of thrust against a combat weight of around 12,000lbs you will run out of energy very quickly and your turn rate will drop very fast. Suddenly all those nasty prop-aircraft with their tighter turning radii and better general low-speed handling qualities will be very interested in you. At which point, whatever 'good' turn you might have will be a long-way second in importance compared to getting out of Dodge ASAP.
 

Quote


Same here just a friendly debate.

 

 

I am looking forward to flying it 😎

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/31/2019 at 12:59 PM, EAF19_Marsh said:

Given these aircraft are many generations apart, I rather feel you are setting up a straw-man. However, you appear to be inadvertently confirmed one of the points that I was trying to make

 

on one hand -I don't see why the many generations apart makes any difference to the concept.You feel ?

on the other hand : I'm confirming. Either i'm setting up a straw man or i'm confirming .Which is it ?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a lot of literature out there from pilots flying it. 

Based on the expectations I think it is safe to say a lot is going to be disappointed. 

It is a brick if you attempt dogfight in low speed. 

It should be maneuverable in in higher speeds, but with that come time you have to aim and shoot. 

Some will be able to make a killer with this plane. Others will be fast food for P51. At altitudes  we normally fly in, I think 🤔 we will see it as a difficult  ✈️ to succeed in, but some will and the 😢 part , it’s not gonna be me

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I expect the '262 to be what the Spad XIII is to Rise of Flight.

Annoying as hell blasting through a dogfight without stopping... or if you see one turning you know you're in there !

 

Of all the virtual crates I've flown, if ever there was a straight line plane it's the '262.

 

S!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Germans who flew it spoke of the difficulties caused by increased closure speed, so no reason to believe that virtual pilots won't have the same problems..  It you are fighting an aware opponent in a fighter you are going to have a tough time getting guns on target.  If you are really good you might be able to get a target solution and then put out a hail of 30mm for your target to fly through, but that will take some talent.  Working as a team drag and bag could be really effective. 

 

Bombers are your main target and nothing that we have in game will be safe.  Working as a team here you could have half go after the bombers and the other half fly cover.  If allied fighters try to dive on the 262s attacking the bombers they will be easy targets for the cover.  If they don't then the bombers get hit.  

 

I do think that the 262 will not be as effective as it was in RL simply because it is not in its element - attacking boxes of heavy bombers.  Should still be fun.

 

And yes, if you are turn fighting in a 262 and wondering why you are not invincible ... 🤡

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 3/7/2018 at 5:50 PM, Finkeren said:

 

Personally I’d gladly trade a performance edge for the ability to nearly always spot my opponent first.

That's basically the entire design philosophy behind the F-35. There may be planes that can outmaneuver it, but if you don't know it's there until after it fires a missile at you, does it really make a difference? 

Edited by Porkins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Porkins said:

but if you don't know it's there until after it fires a missile at you, does it really make a difference?

You gota love the sales brochures.

 

51 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

The Germans who flew it spoke of the difficulties caused by increased closure speed, so no reason to believe that virtual pilots won't have the same problems.

Online players will learn why the first thing that was added to jets were speedbrakes. But it will be grand shooting planes on autolevel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ARGH! I can't stand the wait anymore.... Checking the forum multiple times each day, waiting for the 262. Been doing that wore a few weeks know :P

I have vacation this week also... So it wont come out this week :( 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After seeing the last DD carefully, it says at the end that the 262 will debut at FS EXPO so next week as earliest. Don't think they will release it at the same time they show it there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LF_Gallahad said:

After seeing the last DD carefully, it says at the end that the 262 will debut at FS EXPO so next week as earliest. Don't think they will release it at the same time they show it there.

That is my reasoning too, we will get it right after the expo, but not at the same time and surely not sooner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, LF_Gallahad said:

After seeing the last DD carefully, it says at the end that the 262 will debut at FS EXPO so next week as earliest. Don't think they will release it at the same time they show it there.

 

Who knows, maybe we, the great unwashed paying customers, will get it first before the booth babes and tourist types. Simply because the devs love us.

 

On the other hand we do cause a lot of trouble, so we might have to wait. :sorry:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm excited for the Me-262 for one reason, and only one reason: the infinitesimal chance that I may, some day, shoot down a jet in my I-16!

/I'm also excited to see jets in the sim, don't worry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, GrinderX9 said:

ARGH! I can't stand the wait anymore.... Checking the forum multiple times each day, waiting for the 262. Been doing that wore a few weeks know :P

I have vacation this week also... So it wont come out this week :( 

soon TM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tomorrow is last chance, after that monday or tuesday

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

I'm excited for the Me-262 for one reason, and only one reason: the infinitesimal chance that I may, some day, shoot down a jet in my I-16!

/I'm also excited to see jets in the sim, don't worry

 

In old IL2 I shot down a 262 with the Brewster.   It can happen, all it takes is one overconfident jet jockey.  Be sure.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

 

In old IL2 I shot down a 262 with the Brewster.   It can happen, all it takes is one overconfident jet jockey.  Be sure.

In an old IL2 we had lasers...not that we dont have them here also, to some extent hihi

Edited by =VARP=Tvrdi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tomorrow, D-Day memorial. The day for the release of the Me262. Can there be a better one?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

Tomorrow, D-Day memorial. The day for the release of the Me262. Can there be a better one?

 

I don't think they will release it the same day as the flight expo event. But hopefully they do! My prediction is 2 weeks, testing the aircraft usually takes a bit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, II./JG77_HankDG said:

My prediction is 2 weeks

 

So... 'two weeks'. Seems about right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 5/31/2019 at 11:59 AM, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

Given these aircraft are many generations apart, I rather feel you are setting up a straw-man. However, you appear to be inadvertently confirmed one of the points that I was trying to make: while an F-15 may not have the radius of a Spitfire (well, high-alpha weirdness aside), it can sustain a high rate of turn due to sheer power (T/W). A 262 has no chance of anything similar: no matter how well the design was crafted, if it is pulling significantly more g than any opponent, it will quickly run our of airspeed and options. 5 g (using an OMA scenario) requires over 2.2 x stall speed (probably quite a bit more). 2.2 times stall speed =  almost 5 times the drag at stall speed. That is a lot when your T/W is 0.3:1 and your wing-loading is over 51 lbs per square foot.

 

This is basic stuff, no doubt people round here can do a far better job of the forces / energy involved.

 

 

But again, you are using a modern aircraft with a T/W greater than 1:1 as a comparison to a 1943 design with nothing like that excess thrust. Again, given that 'good' and 'turn' are about as scientific a term as 'my pizza tastes better than yours', I was trying simply to drop some physics into this. Being faster and not turning is great. Being fast and having to induce getting-on-for-double the force on your aircraft in order to remain with a target is not good: with only c. 4,000lbs of thrust against a combat weight of around 12,000lbs you will run out of energy very quickly and your turn rate will drop very fast. Suddenly all those nasty prop-aircraft with their tighter turning radii and better general low-speed handling qualities will be very interested in you. At which point, whatever 'good' turn you might have will be a long-way second in importance compared to getting out of Dodge ASAP.
 

 

I am looking forward to flying it 😎

 

 

Keep in mind though that the 262 has three things the F15 doesn't:

1) Lower wing loading (294 kg/m2 vs 357 kg/m2)

2) Full span LE slats 

3) Much higher wing aspect ratio (7.31 vs 3.01)

 

So whilst it's true that the F-15 has a much better T/W ratio, the other also has a much more favorable L/W ratio :) In other words I think an F-15 would have issues fighting an Me262 or F-86 or MiG-15 if all it does is turn in the horizontal.  As soon as the F-15 starts to use the vertical however, well then even a Spitfire is dead meat. 

 

 

Edited by Panthera
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems everyone agrees the unique flight envelope (in this sim) will require some adjustment on the part of us pilots who have been flying with perpellers in front of us up until now,.

 

One thing I'm kinda curious about, not that I play much SP mode, is how the AI engine is going to accomodate the 262?  Will we see flameouts, compressor stalls, mach tuck. etc on the AI pilot's part?  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For those of you who haven't seen the vids from the FSExpo, release day is Monday or Tuesday barring anything unexpected.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

  I watched Requiems video and it just confirmed my opinion that the 262 is a [edited] plane to add to the set.    He killed two A20s with a 1/2 second burst and nothing could have stopped him doing it.   Barring being ambushed at take off or landing it is pretty much invincible and with patience it is guaranteed to kill any bombers it sees regardless of how many escorts there are.  Yes, theoretically,  it is possible for a fast late war fighter to dive in at VNE and get a killing shot if the timing is perfect but I think they will be few and far between and the majority of 262 losses will be accidental or kills achieved in the circuit.   Do we really want to become vulchers?

Hopefully, avoiding them in fighters will be a little easier as long as we are very careful to keep a good lookout and avoid flying in straight lines for too long.  Yes we should be doing that anyway but I for one can be sloppy and maybe the presence of 262s will make me learn better 🙂

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

  I watched Requiems video and it just confirmed my opinion that the 262 is a [edited] plane to add to the set.    He killed two A20s with a 1/2 second burst and nothing could have stopped him doing it.   Barring being ambushed at take off or landing it is pretty much invincible and with patience it is guaranteed to kill any bombers it sees regardless of how many escorts there are.  Yes, theoretically,  it is possible for a fast late war fighter to dive in at VNE and get a killing shot if the timing is perfect but I think they will be few and far between and the majority of 262 losses will be accidental or kills achieved in the circuit.   Do we really want to become vulchers?

Hopefully, avoiding them in fighters will be a little easier as long as we are very careful to keep a good lookout and avoid flying in straight lines for too long.  Yes we should be doing that anyway but I for one can be sloppy and maybe the presence of 262s will make me learn better 🙂

It will be fine. Many servers will limit the 262s presence in their servers since the 262 is just so late war. The only server that makes sense at the moment is Combat Box and even then I reckon it's presence there will be rather limited.

 

In the meantime, the Reds can continue to slice 111s and 88s in their single passes on any server with any fighter while the Blues have to contend with the Pe2s and A20s which are both agile and tough and have supreme marksmanship.

 

No, the 262 will be fine, if anything, it can finally act as a nice counterbalance to the one-sided bomber killing ability that is currently favoring reds.

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

My predictions are, that fighting any allied fighter in 262 will feel somewhat like fighting Spits Mk.V in FW-190 A8. How else could it be?

 

Edited by Cacodemon96

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/6/2019 at 5:35 PM, Panthera said:

So whilst it's true that the F-15 has a much better T/W ratio, the other also has a much more favorable L/W ratio :) In other words I think an F-15 would have issues fighting an Me262 or F-86 or MiG-15 if all it does is turn in the horizontal. 

 

Depends on the speeds you're fighting at. Below 350-400kts, the early jets/ props will have the edge, but the F-15 can dictate the fight and just plug in burner to do what it wants to do.

The F-15 has more alpha available and can sustain more g than any of the early jets or any prop whatsoever.

 

A 262 would be toast against a semi-competently flown F-15 every day the week and twice on sunday.

That is WVR, guns only, of course... The biggest disadvantage of the F-15 here is it's size.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Direct from Jason in the 262 video with Requiem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 6/9/2019 at 9:08 PM, Bremspropeller said:

 

Depends on the speeds you're fighting at. Below 350-400kts, the early jets/ props will have the edge, but the F-15 can dictate the fight and just plug in burner to do what it wants to do.

The F-15 has more alpha available and can sustain more g than any of the early jets or any prop whatsoever.

 

A 262 would be toast against a semi-competently flown F-15 every day the week and twice on sunday.

That is WVR, guns only, of course... The biggest disadvantage of the F-15 here is it's size.

 

 

Well that's the thing, the F-15 has so much excess thrust that it can just climb up and away, seperate, and come back down at will, and with the automatic gunsight it will be able to take shots from distances unheard of for any WW2 or Korean era fighter. So ofcourse I agree that it shouldn't be a problem for the F-15 to win a guns only fight (it should win every time with an experienced pilot), but that also means not engaging in a purely horizontal turn fight because that would be giving the older jets a completely unnecessary chance of shooting you down as they can turn much tighter.

Edited by Panthera

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who the hell really cares about what an F-15 could do against a 262? :rolleyes:

  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 3
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

apparently some people here🤨

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 6/6/2019 at 6:35 PM, Panthera said:

 

 

 

So whilst it's true that the F-15 has a much better T/W ratio, the other also has a much more favorable L/W ratio :) In other words I think an F-15 would have issues fighting an Me262 or F-86 or MiG-15 if all it does is turn in the horizontal.  As soon as the F-15 starts to use the vertical however, well then even a Spitfire is dead meat. 

 

 

 

 

LOL no.

 

F-15 got proper high speed control surfaces and lift surfaces, its has also 1:1+ TW ratio.  With 262 piddly 30mm muzzle velocity, being on the par with modern grande machine gun, you will never manage to pull lead to land those snowballs. Heck, 262 will struggle to pull lead on A-20, go try on easy AI, i dear you, i double dear you. 

You can maybe manage to concoct some artificial lab setting where 262 marginally outperforms f-15, but good luck betting any success on such scheme in simulator or real scenario. 

 

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

Who the hell really cares about what an F-15 could do against a 262? :rolleyes:

 

its fun teheorycrafting you assassin of joy! 

Edited by CptSiddy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎6‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 10:00 PM, 1/LG1-MarkWilhelmsson said:

262 saw action starting in Autumn of 44. It wasnt extemely late war.

 

Naaaaa, not at all, the war still could have been won!!!^1111111111

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, CptSiddy said:

LOL no.

 

F-15 got proper high speed control surfaces and lift surfaces, its has also 1:1+ TW ratio.  With 262 piddly 30mm muzzle velocity, being on the par with modern grande machine gun, you will never manage to pull lead to land those snowballs. Heck, 262 will struggle to pull lead on A-20, go try on easy AI, i dear you, i double dear you. 

You can maybe manage to concoct some artificial lab setting where 262 marginally outperforms f-15, but good luck betting any success on such scheme in simulator or real scenario. 

 

[edited]

 

18. Claiming that FM is incorrect without the required proof and starting a flame thread based on such claim is prohibited.

The form for an FM claim consists of:

  • short but consistent description of the claim;
  • link to a reference and to a specific part of such reference that describes correct behaviour of a disputed element/situation;
  • game track record and the list of conditions used to recreate disputed element/situation.

Exception to this rule: FM discussion

 

 

Edited by SYN_Haashashin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...