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Wolfram-Harms

Wreck of USS Lexington found (Still dreaming of a Pacific sim one day...)

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I just hope that they manage to keep the location secret - unlikely, sadly. Otherwise this may disappear in a few years like all the other wrecks in the to the Indonesian metal salvage boats.  Maybe it's depth will save it.

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11 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

I just hope that they manage to keep the location secret - unlikely, sadly. Otherwise this may disappear in a few years like all the other wrecks in the to the Indonesian metal salvage boats.  Maybe it's depth will save it.

 

Not that it will stop people but isn't it protected by law because it is a war grave?

 

+ to raise something from 3000m may not be profitable

Edited by AeroAce

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I think the ones they are most notoriously looting for scrap (Houston, Prince of Wales, Repulse) are mostly in much shallower water. 

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1 hour ago, AeroAce said:

 

Not that it will stop people but isn't it protected by law because it is a war grave?

 

+ to raise something from 3000m may not be profitable

 

Unfortunately the scrap scavengers do not give a monkey's about international law - it has not stopped them from stripping almost all the other WW2 era ships they can get at and bundling the unwanted bones into pits. Politicians will be paid off and nothing will be done. I agree the depth might be the best protection.

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2 miles down is hard to get to and I doubt they will make the GPS coordinates known. It's an awesome find and those TBDs and that Wildcat are in amazing condition. They've already ID's the Wildcat's pilot.

 

Jason

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I was shocked by the condition of the paint and markings on the aircraft, they look like the day they went into service.

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Yes the extremely low oxygen really helps with that. I really really hope they try to pull up the planes. But I was thinking about how hard it would be to attach a line to get them with a remote vehicle. Just to see an actual combat flown TBD in person would be amazing.

 

Jason 

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I've always liked the TBD, it's performance overall in the early days of the Pacific war was actually not bad.  It's reputation just takes a beating because of what happened at Midway.

 

I do think it's a better looking aircraft than the TBF/TBM.

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The United States Navy considers it a war grave.

 

That is all that needs to be said.

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Very cool - I hope they pull up one aircraft at least.

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19 minutes ago, Jason_Williams said:

2 miles down is hard to get to and I doubt they will make the GPS coordinates known. It's an awesome find and those TBDs and that Wildcat are in amazing condition.

 

14 minutes ago, Jason_Williams said:

...to see an actual combat flown TBD in person would be amazing.

 

Seems there is no "Devastator" anywhere in flying condition?

So yes, would be amazing to get up such aircraft.

The planes must not be regarded as "sea graves", as they were not manned. The grave would be the wreck of the carrier itself, I guess.

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There are no TBD on dry land period. No where. Just at the bottom of the ocean or been melted down and made into a washing machine 70 years ago. A few TBDs soldiered on at Naval Air Stations late into the war being used for target training etc. but all met a melty, scrap yard death.

 

Jason

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Not scuttled, torpedoed by a Japanese submarine. She had already been damaged, but they were geting the fires under control when the sub found them...and well, that was that. Interestingly enough, pretty much the same thing happened to the Yorktown a month later. She was damaged and listing badly, but they stopped the fires and were going to tow her, when  submarine I-168 came along. 

   Talking about the Pacific. I can't help think that Coral Sea would make for a much better scenario than Midway would have done if Jason ever gets the Pacific bug again. I say this because New Guinea was involved and land based Japanese bombers from Rabaul attacked the U.S. Fleet. Unlike Midway, with nothing but that mile long little atoll, Coral Sea would have land bases for both sides to fly from and give so much more playability than the Midway scenario. Would love to see them consider it. 

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15 minutes ago, Poochnboo said:

Not scuttled, torpedoed by a Japanese submarine. She had already been damaged, but they were geting the fires under control when the sub found them...and well, that was that. Interestingly enough, pretty much the same thing happened to the Yorktown a month later. She was damaged and listing badly, but they stopped the fires and were going to tow her, when  submarine I-168 came along. 

   Talking about the Pacific. I can't help think that Coral Sea would make for a much better scenario than Midway would have done if Jason ever gets the Pacific bug again. I say this because New Guinea was involved and land based Japanese bombers from Rabaul attacked the U.S. Fleet. Unlike Midway, with nothing but that mile long little atoll, Coral Sea would have land bases for both sides to fly from and give so much more playability than the Midway scenario. Would love to see them consider it. 

 

Everything I've read says USS PHELPS sank LEXINGTON?

 

(Edit - not that it matters much...by the time she was done burning, the time and resources needed to repair would have been better spent on an ESSEX or two CVLs!)

Edited by 19//Rekt

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1 hour ago, Jason_Williams said:

Yes the extremely low oxygen really helps with that. I really really hope they try to pull up the planes. But I was thinking about how hard it would be to attach a line to get them with a remote vehicle. Just to see an actual combat flown TBD in person would be amazing.

 

Jason 

 

I keep hoping that they'll find one in some crazy old guy's barn (like the German who had that Panther in his basement!)

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46 minutes ago, Poochnboo said:

Talking about the Pacific. I can't help think that Coral Sea would make for a much better scenario than Midway would have done if Jason ever gets the Pacific bug again.

 

I HOPE VERY MUCH, that Jason will get that bug again!

A PACIFIC Theatre sim could and should be made a long-time project IMHO, with the historical order, step by step.

Then they must not build everything at once, and they could sell part for part.

 

I would be most happy, if they started with Coral Sea, and then follow the Pacific war through the other battles.

Carefully planned, it could provide them with an income for many years.

I would definitely buy 4-5 game packs of it, like we have with "Battle of Stalingrad" and "Battle of Moscow".

It might find a huge market, with Japan and the USA of course, but also many other enthusiasts from all over the world.

 

Jason - what do you say? I know it's a huge project, with all the ships alone!

But you guys are the only ones I can see right now, who could make this dream come true...

 

 

Edited by Wolfram-Harms
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PTO was just delayed to allow time to gather resources - that's why we're getting Bodenplatte.

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Rekt, That's Right! You are correct. The Phelps put 4 or five torpedoes in her to finish her off. I'm trying to find where the hell I read about the sub. Seems I even recall it being the I-6. Maybe I have it confused with the Yorktown incident. Anyway, sorry for the wrong information. It seems to have been the Phelps. 

Edited by Poochnboo
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Ah, okay. The I-6 torpedoed the Saratoga and put her out of action in January of -42. Not the Lex. 

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3 hours ago, Poochnboo said:

Ah, okay. The I-6 torpedoed the Saratoga and put her out of action in January of -42. Not the Lex. 

 

No worries...those poor ships got bombed and torpedoed so many different ways, it is easy to lose track :)

 

BTW I got to meet a guy (family mbr by marriage) who was a Corsair pilot on FRANKLIN when she was hit. Hopped out of the rack when he smelled smoke and ended up leaping onto SANTA FE! Sadly he died a few years ago.

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Wise and perfectly sane guy keeps a Panther in his barn, not some crazy old man.

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22 minutes ago, 19//Rekt said:

This guy is my "Spirit Animal"

 

I actually thought you meant mysterious big cat.... :/

 

There was a Matilda II for sale down the road here for several years but my partner said "NO TANKS IN THE BACK YARD".....

she has since admitted the error of her ways....

PS. Happy Women's Day !!

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7 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

Yes the extremely low oxygen really helps with that. I really really hope they try to pull up the planes. But I was thinking about how hard it would be to attach a line to get them with a remote vehicle. Just to see an actual combat flown TBD in person would be amazing.

 

Jason 

I don't know what they use on those depths to get them out.

Usually ballons known as "parachutes" are used to lift heavy submerged objects, makes less damage than pulling things out.

They get attached on object than filled with compressed air which produce lift.

Problem is uncontrolled emerge speed as air expands with pressure droping as depth decreases which is quite problem going from 3000m to surface.

Did they ever do that before with such big objects on such depth?

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Steel made pre nuclear tests is VERY valuable for scientific instruments afaik.

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For all who haven't seen the amazing 3D models of Stefan Draminski yet - here is a video tour around the Japanese carrier AKAGI:

 

 

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19 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I've always liked the TBD, it's performance overall in the early days of the Pacific war was actually not bad.  It's reputation just takes a beating because of what happened at Midway.

 

I do think it's a better looking aircraft than the TBF/TBM.

 

Agreed. The TBD's fate at Midway was in part due to the poor torpedoes at the time, and the requirements for launching them. There are varying figures on this, but according to VT-8 survivor George Gay, their TBDs had to be at 80 feet altitude and throttled back to 80 knots when dropping them. 80 knots is Cessna 152 speed. Low and slow, flying predictable flight paths, with no fighter cover...  Still, look at the VT-8 TBF Avengers flying off Midway. A faster, more robust airplane, but they too were slaughtered, also in part due to the drop speed/altitude requirements of the same Mark 13 torpedo the TBDs were dropping. The days of the 800 foot/300 knot drops with the Mark 13 improvements were still far off. So, a lack of fighter cover and being hamstrung by required torpedo drop parameters weren't the fault of the TBD. Hell, if VT-8 had flown unescorted F-18 Hornets at 80 knots and 80 feet to drop torpedoes, Zeros were going to shoot them down. 

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1 hour ago, JFM said:

 

Agreed. The TBD's fate at Midway was in part due to the poor torpedoes at the time, and the requirements for launching them. There are varying figures on this, but according to VT-8 survivor George Gay, their TBDs had to be at 80 feet altitude and throttled back to 80 knots when dropping them. 80 knots is Cessna 152 speed. Low and slow, flying predictable flight paths, with no fighter cover...  Still, look at the VT-8 TBF Avengers flying off Midway. A faster, more robust airplane, but they too were slaughtered, also in part due to the drop speed/altitude requirements of the same Mark 13 torpedo the TBDs were dropping. The days of the 800 foot/300 knot drops with the Mark 13 improvements were still far off. So, a lack of fighter cover and being hamstrung by required torpedo drop parameters weren't the fault of the TBD. Hell, if VT-8 had flown unescorted F-18 Hornets at 80 knots and 80 feet to drop torpedoes, Zeros were going to shoot them down. 

 

Brilliant post. Those torpedo squadrons were on a fool's errand.

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