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Haza

P-47 Ability to Sustain Damage

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Gents,

 

I have just watched a DVD (bought for me by my kids) documentary on the History channel (youtube link below) regarding the P-47 and the one thing that keeps being repeated is how much damage that they could take or that they could catch fire and still carry on.  Therefore, will this ability be modeled in the forthcoming Battle Of Bodenplatte and if so would it be possible to understand how and why these aircraft were able to sustain such damage (apart from them being big and having an air cooled radial). 

The P-47 was one of the first model kits (airfix) that I built in about 1978 so I have always had a real interest in this frame although watching the documentary today, I just did not appreciate how resilliant it was.

 

Thank you in advance

 

 

Edited by Haza
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I read about how the U.S. design loads were higher than used in other countries. It costed more weight but could improve damage resilience. The Jug had a hefty turbocharger in the back, too - the R2800 could still (probably) work without it so it acted as a shield, so were ducts.

Then we have survival bias - only lucky could return and tell about it.

Edited by Ehret

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Survivorship bias plus decent pilot armour and large size. Many parts could be hit without endangering critical components. 

 

Also, the general strategic situation favoured the sharing of amazing survival stories. Such stories were not very useful if pilots were likely to die the next day anyway. In other campaigns, many details were lost due to desperate circumstances.

Edited by Mitthrawnuruodo

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4 hours ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

Survivorship bias plus decent pilot armour and large size. Many parts could be hit without endangering critical components. 

 

Also, the general strategic situation favoured the sharing of amazing survival stories. Such stories were not very useful if pilots were likely to die the next day anyway. In other campaigns, many details were lost due to desperate circumstances.

This.

Not that it is to believed that the P-47 wasnt a sturdy plane, but you only can ask the guys which sustained a lot of damage and survied. You can't interview guy who was shot down with one bullet into the ammo rack.
Pretty sure that P-47 can sustain quite some damage, but its still a phyical object with material limitations.

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One of the more sturdy single engined aircraft for sure, but don't expect surviving many hits by 20mm cannon fire, and certainly no more than 1 or 2 hits by a 30mm mineshell of which it on average took just 3-4 hits to down a B-24 or B-17 bomber.

Edited by Panthera

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2 minutes ago, Panthera said:

One of the more sturdy single engined aircraft for sure, but don't expect surviving many hits by 20mm cannon fire, and certainly no more than 1 or 2 hits by a 30mm mineshell of which in on average took just 3-4 hits to down a B-24 or B-17 bomber.

 

 

If Wikipedia is anything to go by (and its not), 30mm should obliterate fighters with just a single hit. I don't think any amount of armour can handle this : 

 

Image result for mk108 damage

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A lot of the deadliness of the 20mm+ projectiles also hinged on where and what angle it actually hit. There was a study done by the LW that showed that top down hits on wings had less damage potential than hits edge-on into the wing. The difference was the compartment that got hit. In the top down, most of the blast power gets vented out on the other side of the wing. While still massive and crippling damage (fighting was out of question after 1 or 2 hits with these), it was much less deadly as when the projectile went into the structure of the wing and the blast direction hit the structural components.

 

TL;DR:  It's more complicated than it seems. I wonder how modelling in BOS actually measures up to it.

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That's an extremely interesting document, which I have never seen before. Thanks for sharing the link.

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If you want a good story about a P-47 taking tons of damage, read Robert Johnson's "Thunderbolt!". He is attacked by a Fw-190 who uses up all its ammunition and the Jug made it home with hundreds of holes. Survivor bias, perhaps, but it's still a great read.

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Flare,

 

Thank you for your suggestion and I have ordered various books, however, the above video initially opens with the exploits of Robert Johnson and his engagement with the Fw190.

 

Regards

 

 

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I have the honor of having met Bob Johnson during an air show in New York. He was there with the Thunderbolt Pilots Association. He even showed me a photograph of his P47, "Lucky" that he kept in his wallet. He was standing near the airplane's nose and there's a big hand painted on it, giving everybody the bird! 

  The reason he survived that encounter with the Focke Wulf is that the pilot was out of 20mm ammunition. When he found Johnson limping home, the only thing the FW pilot had were his 2 nose mounted popguns. Well....that wasn't gonna shoot down a P-47, not even a damaged one. 

By the way. There's an old story concerning this encounter that claimed that the 190 wss flown by the German ace Egon Meyer. It seems that research into JG2 has since shown that it was not the case. 

Edited by Poochnboo
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On 4/27/2018 at 9:44 PM, Haza said:

Flare,

 

Thank you for your suggestion and I have ordered various books, however, the above video initially opens with the exploits of Robert Johnson and his engagement with the Fw190.

 

Regards

 

 

Whoops! I must admit that I read the posts without watching the video and thought, hey, I've read something about a P-47 taking a lot of damage! It's still a great book however!

 

Back in the old IL2 Mysticpuma made a great movie of the event. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 4/28/2018 at 12:14 AM, Poochnboo said:

I have the honor of having met Bob Johnson during an air show in New York. He was there with the Thunderbolt Pilots Association. He even showed me a photograph of his P47, "Lucky" that he kept in his wallet. He was standing near the airplane's nose and there's a big hand painted on it, giving everybody the bird! 

  The reason he survived that encounter with the Focke Wulf is that the pilot was out of 20mm ammunition. When he found Johnson limping home, the only thing the FW pilot had were his 2 nose mounted popguns. Well....that wasn't gonna shoot down a P-47, not even a damaged one. 

By the way. There's an old story concerning this encounter that claimed that the 190 wss flown by the German ace Egon Meyer. It seems that research into JG2 has since shown that it was not the case. 

He did get hit by 20mm before that 190 hit him, can't say how many 20mm but it was a few.

 

P-47 was had a very robust airframe and it had a lot of surface area to take damage, if the rounds didn't hit any vital parts then it would do little harm. Not saying the P-47 was invulnerable by any means but it is one of the toughest birds of the war and should definitely be represented as such in-game.

 

15,000+ P-47s were built during the war and only around 3,000 were lost in combat. Most losses were due to ground fire, not enemy aircraft.

 

Of all the aircraft of the war none are praised for their toughness like the P-47 is. Were the pilots biased? Yes but that doesn't mean they are wrong, I'll take the accounts of people who actually experience it over a historian unless there is evidence proving the eye witness wrong.

 

The durability of the Jug has never really been represented in any sim I've flown, I'm interested to see how it is in this one. I don't expect the Jug to take 20+ 20mm hits and survive but I expect it to be able to take more than a few rounds to non vital areas. Vital areas like the engine are another story, I'm sure it could take 1 or maybe 2 hits at most to it's engine by a cannon round but not more than that, I don't expect MG rounds to put any Jug down, cannons will be the Killer.

Spoiler

 

7b1641586285d2e6fa5e4b52a0cc29ac.jpg

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media-377464.jpg?itok=hVTi85fv

P-47-Damaged%20Fuselage-3.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Legioneod

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3 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

He did get hit by 20mm before that 190 hit him, can't say how many 20mm but it was a few.

Yes, I know. That's what knocked him out of the original fight. One hit him forward of the cockpit canopy and another struck the P-47 aft of it, jamming the canopy closed and making it impossable for Johnson to bail out. He was limping home when that FW190 found him. 

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Well, there was this one case of a Brazilian P-47D that had an unfortunate altercation with a chimney and made it back to base - or the one that was literally mowing the lawn during a strafing run and still made it back with its prop in...less than mint condition.

 

P47brazil.jpg

 

tumblr_nq6nofc8EC1sfdr4zo1_1280.jpg

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I thought i would revive this thread as this is still unresolved.

And im just sick and tried of the Wings getting ripped of most flights (and even the MG 131 can rip wings with prolonged burst and ive even done it with the MG 17).

 

The P-47 was famed as the most rugged single engine aircraft of ww2 where as right now i would say it might be the most vulnerable of the allied fighters.

 

Here is some more examples of why this should not be the case.

 

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I was hoping  P 47 DM  was going to be revised before the release of BOBP, but still the same.

BOBP work is not finished yet as improvements are being made, so still there is hope the P47 is not forgotten and left like this.

Its DM and  wing breaking clean out of the root, its an immersion killer .

 

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I too agree that the P-47 should be slightly more 'tanky' than it is currently. I think about some of the Russian airframes and their ability to survive a tremendous amount of punishment. The P-47 in-game today feels like a paper airplane by comparison.

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I fly the P-47 a lot - almost all my MP sorties lately have been in it. And in nearly all my recent sorties somebody has shot me down. My only 'air kill' lately was when Scharfi annihilated my plane and a piece of my tail took out her engine!

Its always difficult to evaluate the damage model because so much is subjective and situation dependant. And with the Jug in particular, its a plane that suffers from having a rather legendary reputation that would be difficult to live up to for any real life aircraft.  When a plane is renowned for speed, there are documents that specify precisely what speed it can achieve. When a plane is legendary for its robustness, we get into what Sheriff mentioned - survivorship bias. 

All that being said, I do think the P-47 is somewhat more fragile than what it was IRL, and I think it can be boiled down to two main problems.

Problem: Wings come off too easily. This is just a general thing with the DM, its not as bad as it was at one point but it is still too common. It just gets exaggerated with the P-47. Hypothesis: The P-47 is a heavy aircraft with a large wing. That means its wings are a big target for any attacker. once the wing is damaged, the damage model then takes into account the forces acting on the wing. With the Jug being so heavy, even slightly damaged wings quickly fail, whereas in a lighter aircraft this would not be the case. Maybe the wing is modeled too weakly, or the forces from the weight of the plane too much, or the DM just has a quirk where one component in the wing gets destroyed and the wing pops off when it fails.

Problem: Engine seems very fragile, more so than many of the in-line engines in game. Hypothesis: the game's engine damage model is somewhat simplified, so maybe it doesn't take into account the things that made the P-47 engine durable IRL. I don't know enough about aero engines to be 100% sure what this is, but I remember reading that with two banks of cylinders in a rotary engine, one bank can continue to function at reduced power if the other fails.

Aside from these problems, I think a lot of the fragility issues with the P-47 come from the fact that:
a) its a big target, so it gets hit a lot, especially on the wings that are prone to coming off in Il-2 and

b) its going up against late war axis aircraft that are packing a lot of cannon and HMG.

It may also be worth noting that lately I have been getting pilot killed a lot in the P-47 after the new pilot physiology patch. Previously, I think I could count on one hand the number of times I'd been PK'd in any plane. Since the patch, I think I have been PK's in the Jug five or six times. I believe this is from cannon shells hitting my cockpit but I cannot really be sure. It seems to be happening mostly against K-4s and D-9s. 

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Pretty much just a copy paste of a post I made in another thread.

 

P-47 is definitely one of the weakest fighters in-game when it comes to damage model. DM certainly needs an upgrade, there's no reason for an aircraft as rugged as the P-47 to be represented so poorly in-game.

The DM is such a disappointment, even the P-51 is a tougher aircraft in-game. Devs seem to have made some huge errors when it comes to the P-47 DM, every other aircraft seems much more durable in my experience. It's gotten to the point where I rarely fly the P-47 anymore due to the way it's modeled.

It certainly doesn't live up to it's real life reputation.

 

The most enduring characteristic of the P-47 was it's ruggedness more than anything else. One of the strongest attributes of the P-47 was it's engine, yet in-game the engine is the weakest part of the P-47 besides it's fragile wings.

 

I'm sure most of you have seen these before:

Spoiler

Combat Report of an unlucky (or lucky) P-47 taking multiple 20mm round from a 109.

353-duncan-12may44.jpg

 

P-47 Hit a tree and made it over 100 miles back to base

2779969303_e0e026be31_o-jpg.409438

 

 

Made it back to bae after getting 2 or so cylinders shot out on a mission.

p47-d12thafo-jpg.410140

 

It wasn't uncommon for it to make it back after losing a few cylinders. Hers a few more shots each of different aircraft.

hv-pbar2-jpg.410142

 

wd-c3-jpg.410143

 

Made it back to base after daking aa hits to the engine and losing a cylinder (or more not 100% how many cylinders he lost) 

w-397-hendricks-damage-1-jpg.410144

w-397-hendricks-damage-2-jpg.410145

w-397-hendricks-damage-3-jpg.410146

 

P-47 that got hit in both wings by a few  flak shells, pilot says it was 40mm but idk if the German ever used 40mm shells, most likely 37mm. His wingman got hit also and lost 2-3 cylinders and made it back home. Here's the first hand account. http://www.368thfightergroup.com/395-kik-rife.html

w-395-rife-rt-wing-close.jpg

 

w-395-rife-left-wing.jpg

 

Stuck bomb blew up underneath it after landing, pilot miraculously survived. Notice that the wings are still attached.

p47-bomb-1024x566.jpg

 

 

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It seems the trick of lowering the engine settings like in the german planes does help preserving a damaged engine. In quick mission I got hit by a Flakvierling in the fuselage side, causing engine damage and wounding the pilot, RPM jumping around, decreased to slightly below 1900 RPM and 30" of manifold pressure and was able to fly 200km back and land at an airfield, going full RPM for a moment during landing approach. At these settings the plane was barely flyable, just enough to mantain altitude at 180 mph but the engine held on.

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