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Developer Diary, Part 190 - Discussion

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2 hours ago, slparker17 said:

The Germans were NOT a year away from producing "an F-86 like aircraft".  The P.1011 and the Ta 183 et. al. bear outward resemblance to the Sabre and MiG-15 in the same way I bear outward resemblance to Tom Cruise (upright posture, bipedal method of locomotion, bilateral symmetry) but saying the P.1011 shell US soldiers discovered would have flown, let alone reached F-86 performance is untenable.  They jumped over several developmental stages to build the variable-swing (on the ground) wing P.1011 before completing the previous steps in a futile attempt to outrun the tide of war.  

 

 

I think you're forgetting that the P.1101 was a prototype, not the final design. Same goes for the Huckenbeim. The first Me262 prototypes didn't match the production type in performance or handling either. Considering the advances they had made it's entirely reasonably to assume that they could've produce an F-86 like aircraft within the year had they not been limited by resources, bombing etc.. we're talking know how here, nothing else. All these men were gulped up by the Allies after the war to help produce the F-86 & MiG-15, without them they wouldn't have existed by that time or ever in that form. Have to give credit where credit is due.

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4 minutes ago, Panthera said:

Considering the advances they had made it's entirely reasonably to assume that they could've produce an F-86 like aircraft within the year had they not been limited by resources, bombing etc....

 

The Me-262 flew with a piston engine in '41 and jet engines in '42.  Two years later it was introduced in combat in 1944.  The P.1101 wasn't anywhere near ready to fly.  To say it would have been operational in a year is unreasonable since they were building the prototype without completing the design calculations due to extreme time pressure imposed by impending defeat. 

 

Let me emphasize that.  You do the calculations and base design decisions thereupon.  With the P.1101 they never got close to completing the design work which is to be completed before you build the first prototype.  I'm not talking about the tweaking or modification design work but the basic aerodynamic design work on the a/c.  With performance in dives approaching transonic the stresses on an a/c exaggerate any design flaws.

 

Again, I don't think Germans would have produced a Sabre-level performer within a year.  

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30 minutes ago, slparker17 said:

 

The Me-262 flew with a piston engine in '41 and jet engines in '42.  Two years later it was introduced in combat in 1944.  The P.1101 wasn't anywhere near ready to fly.  To say it would have been operational in a year is unreasonable since they were building the prototype without completing the design calculations due to extreme time pressure imposed by impending defeat. 

 

Let me emphasize that.  You do the calculations and base design decisions thereupon.  With the P.1101 they never got close to completing the design work which is to be completed before you build the first prototype.  I'm not talking about the tweaking or modification design work but the basic aerodynamic design work on the a/c.  With performance in dives approaching transonic the stresses on an a/c exaggerate any design flaws.

 

Again, I don't think Germans would have produced a Sabre-level performer within a year.  

 

The P.1101 was meant as a testbed to explore full scale high speed aerodynamics, exactly the thing you couldn't do in windtunnels, hence the adjustable wing. In other words it was meant to speed up the design process of the final messerschmitt design. The US copied the design for the same purpose. As for the Germans not being capable of designing & fielding a new aircraft within a year given unrestricted resources, I believe the fact that the He-162 went flying less than 3 months after the first pencil stroke suggests otherwise, esp. since this was achieved despite the chaotic situation Germany was in at that time. 

 

In summary I believe the experience & lessons learned with the Me262 & He162, as well as the research underway with the P.1101 V1 test bed, would've allowed the Germans to produce an F-86 like jet within or at least very close to a year had it not been for the restrictions imposed on them by a lack of resources and constant bombing. In short I am strictly talking about know how, and here the Germans were well ahead by 1945 when it comes to jet technology & high speed aerodynamics, and that only because they had a head start (the Germans weren't inherently smarter than everyone else, eventhough the Nazis would've liked us to believe that). After all the scientists were taken east & west after the war it took some time (a couple of years) to consolidate all this knowledge and have it manifest in the F-86 & MiG-15. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Panthera

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Btw when I say an F-86 like jet, I ofcourse am refering to the initial version, the F-86A, and not the later F-86E and F which came to thanks to experience gained with the A model. The Germans would've had to go through the same steps of trial and error to come up with the improvements present in the later types.

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Why are we talking about the F-86 in a DD diary topic? :mellow:

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I'm just going to ignore the previous conversation that led up to it and imagine we're already dreaming of Han's Il-2 Korea

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7 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Why are we talking about the F-86 in a DD diary topic? :mellow:

 

No guts no glory - :biggrin:

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12 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Why are we talking about the F-86 in a DD diary topic? :mellow:

 

Because the developers haven't posted a recent update and conversation wanders.  The clock's ticking down to when we'll start posting cat videos. 

 Image result for cat in flying helmet

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I can't stand it!! I CAN'T STAND IT!!!!! 

 

The wait....... the cursed wait!!!!!

:wacko:

 

 

Edited by Raptorattacker
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At first I was upset at the wait but I'm sure the developers are doing their best to get a really good update out. I cant wait I'm sure we are down to a pair of weeks or so or who knows maybe days either way   I'm happy, excited and ready :biggrin: thanks dev for this great game.:cool:

Edited by Winglesschip209

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54 minutes ago, Winglesschip209 said:

At first I was upset at the wait but I'm sure the developers are doing their best to get a really good update out. I cant wait I'm sure we are down to a pair of weeks or so or who knows maybe days either way   I'm happy, excited and ready :biggrin: thanks dev for this great game.:cool:

 

Take a look at the announcement section, you will find a nice surprise there :D

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On 3/9/2018 at 3:48 PM, Panthera said:

 

Keep in mind that this went both ways, both sides used exactly the same methods for confirmation, the biggest difference was since the fighting mostly took place over German soil the Germans often had an easier time verifying their claims.  In the end though both sides overclaimed, I am well aware of this. However making claims such as "they didn't shoot down anywhere near x number" I'd be very careful with as you honestly don't know it, not even a little bit.  I've read cross checked estimates of around 300-350 allied aircraft believed to be shot down by German jets. However things like these are very hard to confirm, was extremely hard even back then, so hard that if no'one saw a friendly aircraft get shot down it was usually just written off as being due to Flak fire, i.e. wild guesses - it simply didn't matter at that point, the aircraft was gone but the war was going our way.

 

 

German AAA was far more feared  and effective than any Luftwaffe fighter. Review your sources .

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7 hours ago, Frequent_Flyer said:

German AAA was far more feared  and effective than any Luftwaffe fighter. Review your sources .

 

What is that even supposed to mean? As for the effectiveness of Flak, keep in mind that the Germans didn't employ proximity fuzes, so their effectiveness was limited. 

 

As for the effectiveness of the LW, considering how outnumbered and low on fuel & trained pilots it was I'd say it performed astonishingly well, with many pilots racking up an impressive tally of kills. 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Luftschiff said:

So when can we expect full patch notes? Pre or Post launch?

Yes :P

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I expect the patch notes will rival "War and Peace" in length...

 

:lol:

 

 

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2 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I expect the patch notes will rival "War and Peace" in length...

 

:lol:

 

 

I hope there will be some nice surprises in them :)

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Me too Temuri.

 

Say, a Karelia map and Brewsters and Hawk 75s?

 

One can dream.

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I know.

 

I just always liked the Winter War/Continuation War scenarios in the original game.   So many different aircraft types, putting bases on lakes, etc...  Just really liked that Gulf of Finland map.

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On 10.3.2018 at 11:30 PM, slparker17 said:

 

Two excellent points.  First, as with post-war interviews with German ground commanders, their testimony was revoltingly self-serving.  Every victory was their brilliance.  Every failure was Hitler's interference.  Few German generals admitted that Soviet generalship improved over the war to exceed the Germans and reach very high levels of operational and strategic ability.

 

Second, you're exactly on point.  Had the short-ranged German jets made a difference, 1,000 plane heavy bomber raids on relevant airfields would scare the cows off.  Then who would trundle the wunderwaffe to the moonscape concrete tumble that was the runway?

if zhe great americans and zhe signed allies of zhe versailler vertrag had done their job, it would never have happend.

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10 minutes ago, SCG_Joey61301 said:

Ha ha cmon refreshing the news page will make it faster cmon!

 

LOL!

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Excellent, the F5 is one of my favorite jet aircraft, and as some of you know, I don't generally like the kerosene burners at all.

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1 minute the video is to long and its a shame I must go to college in 15 minutes ack!

While yall fly ill be doing midterms horidoo!

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4 minutes ago, SCG_Joey61301 said:

1 minute the video is to long and its a shame I must go to college in 15 minutes ack!

While yall fly ill be doing midterms horidoo!

 

I just had some of that stuff. The stress is real. 

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2 hours ago, Panthera said:

 

What is that even supposed to mean? As for the effectiveness of Flak, keep in mind that the Germans didn't employ proximity fuzes, so their effectiveness was limited. 

 

As for the effectiveness of the LW, considering how outnumbered and low on fuel & trained pilots it was I'd say it performed astonishingly well, with many pilots racking up an impressive tally of kills. 

 

 

 

It's true though, to the point that absolutely nobody except for Stalin and one pilot who wrote to him wanted a rear gunner on the IL-2 because enemy fighters were only an annoyance compared to the real problem: anti-aircraft fire.  Rather what WAS requested were extra attached fighter squadrons for escort, leaving the IL-2's nimble qualities and payload uncompromised.  Ilyushin himself wrote to the People's Commissar:  "I don't consider it necessary to include the second person into the air crew of the IL-2... The experience of the aircraft regiments prove that they do not suffer any casualties from the enemy planes"

 

This was during 1941 when the Luftwaffe was at it's height.

Edited by 7.GShAP/Silas

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11 minutes ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

 

It's true though, to the point that absolutely nobody except for Stalin and one pilot who wrote to him wanted a rear gunner on the IL-2 because enemy fighters were only an annoyance compared to the real problem: anti-aircraft fire.  Rather what WAS requested were extra attached fighter squadrons for escort, leaving the IL-2's nimble qualities and payload uncompromised.  Ilyushin himself wrote to the People's Commissar:  "I don't consider it necessary to include the second person into the air crew of the IL-2... The experience of the aircraft regiments prove that they do not suffer any casualties from the enemy planes"

 

This was during 1941 when the Luftwaffe was at it's height.

 

:lol:

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2 minutes ago, Panthera said:

 

:lol:

 

 

You just have to face facts man, the image of the fearsome fighter pilot as the primary threat to strike or bomber aircraft is fiction.  AA is the killer, always has been.

Edited by 7.GShAP/Silas

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6 minutes ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

You just have to face facts man, the image of the fearsome fighter pilot as the primary threat to strike or bomber aircraft is fiction.  AA is the killer, always has been.

 

Sure, that's why bombers were armed to the teeth with guns, totally unnecessary :lol::lol:

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