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II./JG77_motoadve

Defensive tactics

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In multiplayer if I get someone on my six , about 80% of the time I get killed (I know you should not get into that position, but happens).

In single player ,maybe 25% I get killed , after a couple of evasive manuvers AI disengage (that could be more realistic actually)

I have had some pilots escape from me when I am at their six, so they are doing something I am not.

So what to do when low/slow and someone on your six to survive?

I have tried the slow down flaps so the enemy overshoots (worked very few times , most time I become an easier target.)

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Barrel roll, scissors, turn vertical/horizontal......depends on plane you fly as well on plane attacking you.

Use advantages of your plane over the attacking one.

Maybe if you specify what planes are involved!

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There is a lot better 109 pilots than me and i'm sure they will jump in with tips.

When i fly it i always look around and never let enemy is higher than me, if i saw it higher in distance i extend, climb, set stabilizer -55/60% or less and fight vertical.

If only one enemy is present i use a bit flaps to be able turn with him.

fighting vertical is no.1 rule in 109!

Now having yak on my six i use better climb rate and climb in turn (corckscrew) always keeping eye on him making him overshoot till he stall.

Or going vertical with hammergead.

Try yak and go in berloga to see what good pilots do with 109, there are some really impresive 109 pilots.

Last night on Berloga there were some =grij= guys flying 109's really good and one of them in 190 (never seen better fw piloting).

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1 minute ago, =FEW=nightrise said:

Bring a wingman, they can simply shoot the enemies off your tail. 

Yes and a lot more fun to fly with wingman too.

I just find hard to find people to fly with, Discord channels lots of chatting going, but no one is in the voice channel when flying, I do enter them and many times I am the only one there, I use VR so cant type.

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If you have some altitude, similar speed and the bandit isn't too close (more than 300-400m) then use slight rolls to evade gunfire, and put your nose down. You need to accelerate to over 720km/h as this is "disintegrating" speed for most soviet planes. (Mig3 and P40 are exceptions)

If the bandit is bouncing you at much higher speed then one well timed turn should be able to force him overshoot.

If he is close and co-velocity then you have outsmart him in some way... - there aren't hard rules. The ability to fly looking back is of a great help here.

 

 

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Barrel roll and scissors is always hard to follow for enemy and can place him from your six to your gunsight, throttling down till he pass you and than throttling up helps in those situations too (depending on sutuation).

Edited by EAF_Ribbon

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A little tip: Watch his rudder. Most people don't use enough rudder, especially in scissor/rolling maneuvers and situations. Although I personally don't like the furballing on Berloga, I sometimes fly there myself just to get myself into bad situations fast and get some training on some last ditch effort-maneuvering. One just doesn't want to risk that as much on other servers, since getting to combat takes a lot more time there. On dogfight servers like Berloga you can get a lot of dogfighting in a very short amount of time and can painlessly get yourself and your plane to the limit, without having to fly for 10 minutes afterwards. And how to do those effective barrel rolls efficiently and how to know what to use in which situation? Practice, practice, practice. There is simply no "formula" to use, unfortunately. There is a reason why most good fighter jocks in flightsims have played for years and years. ^^ But I think you can accelerate your progress by watching people who do it well and try to imitate certain things in your playstyle.

Many fighter pilots are bad in those kinds of situations, because they never really practiced them. That is especially true for pilots who tend to fly planes that, if flown to it's strenghts all the time, don't have to rely on it (looking at you, Luftwaffe). But to actually get to know your plane and that of your enemy, you have to get yourself into these situations and practice them, otherwise you will always stay half a pilot, one that is good in situations when he has the advantage, but will never be able to get himself out of shitty situations where there is a Yak stuck to your butt. So I can only recommend incorporating that kind of stuff into your playtime. :)

Edited by Etherlight
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Barrel rolls are only part of what you can do...  The key is at what distance is the bandit.  If they're close you need to be thinking about getting them to overshoot.  This is when rolling scissors and barrel rolls will pay off.  Forcing and overshoot is a last ditch effort.  The idea is not to get there in the first place if you can help it.  Knowing when to unload and extend is important. Separation is part of getting enough space to neutralize the bandits advantage.  All these concepts are easy but executing them and knowing when to do this takes time.  

BTW if the bandit has some distance behind you... It doesn't matter what move you make he is going to control the fight by using his speed.  If you were to barrel roll he can just sit back and take shots at you.  And yes this is why you fly with wingmen. 

 

 

Edited by 14./JG5CaptStubing

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There is this one trick you can pull, when you are not too high over ground - go straight vertically down and at the last moment roll by an unexpected amount, then recover just at the trees level. Odds are the bandit will not match your roll angle and will end flying level in a different direction, or he will crash trying.

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One little trick is to initiate the rolling scissors by rolling right (not left). Because of (usually) right hand on the joystick, many players prefer rolling left and therefore find rolling scissors to the right trickier than to the left.

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10 hours ago, Etherlight said:

 

A little tip: Watch his rudder. Most people don't use enough rudder, especially in scissor/rolling maneuvers and situations. Although I personally don't like the furballing on Berloga, I sometimes fly there myself just to get myself into bad situations fast and get some training on some last ditch effort-maneuvering. One just doesn't want to risk that as much on other servers, since getting to combat takes a lot more time there. On dogfight servers like Berloga you can get a lot of dogfighting in a very short amount of time and can painlessly get yourself and your plane to the limit, without having to fly for 10 minutes afterwards. And how to do those effective barrel rolls efficiently and how to know what to use in which situation? Practice, practice, practice. There is simply no "formula" to use, unfortunately. There is a reason why most good fighter jocks in flightsims have played for years and years. ^^ But I think you can accelerate your progress by watching people who do it well and try to imitate certain things in your playstyle.

Many fighter pilots are bad in those kinds of situations, because they never really practiced them. That is especially true for pilots who tend to fly planes that, if flown to it's strenghts all the time, don't have to rely on it (looking at you, Luftwaffe). But to actually get to know your plane and that of your enemy, you have to get yourself into these situations and practice them, otherwise you will always stay half a pilot, one that is good in situations when he has the advantage, but will never be able to get himself out of shitty situations where there is a Yak stuck to your butt. So I can only recommend incorporating that kind of stuff into your playtime. :)

video is good, but it was made with the old FM of bf109

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2 hours ago, 3./JG15_Kampf said:

video is good, but it was made with the old FM of bf109

Doesn't matter, the principles still work.

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13 hours ago, Etherlight said:

Doesn't matter, the principles still work.

Do you think bf109 can do the same movements with the current Fm?

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The rudder was the focus of the FM, so no it cant do what it could pre-patch. The roll rate got a huge boost by using rudder. Now you get a better yaw movement, but no roll assist. And you need to stay in the 350-450 kph range to get that kind of turn rate. Before you could be in the 500+ range and still get that kind of deflection. 

 

EDIT: the second part of that video is even more exciting. 

 

Edited by Field-Ops
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33 minutes ago, Field-Ops said:

The rudder was the focus of the FM, so no it cant do what it could pre-patch. The roll rate got a huge boost by using rudder. Now you get a better yaw movement, but no roll assist. And you need to stay in the 350-450 kph range to get that kind of turn rate. Before you could be in the 500+ range and still get that kind of deflection. 

 

EDIT: the second part of that video is even more exciting. 

 

Yes, it doesn't seem like you can do snap rolls without using some aileron input as well now.

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All I can say is that the principles behind the maneuvers shown in that video still apply. Yes, the planes behave a bit differently, but it still works. It is absolutely possible to slow down a fight with a bandit on your six to get these kind of maneuvering ranges quickly, so the high speed maneuverability, which was indeed nerfed in the FM rework, has only a marginal bearing on the kind of situations shown. I have a pretty decent rate of success with getting myself back from a shitty position into a good position, although it should be obvious that is is very difficult against good opponents, as it should be, since a bandit at your close six is the worst position to be in.

 

The rudder rework still leaves you with quite a decent effect on rolling maneuvers and the increased yawing effect can arguably be even better now, since you can use it even more to push yourself out of the gunsight of your opponent when used in the correct moment.

Edited by Etherlight

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I was just about to say is this an old FM. Two things caught my eye in the video , Roll rate of the 109 and damage on the Reds . 

But your correct principles are the same i normally extend away never turn now !  if i see yak turn i continue straight and extend hopefully the wingman will pick him up . 

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Hey Motoadve, I’ve run into you on the Coconut server before. When I did , you were we’re flying allied and balled up against a pair of 109 AI. I just flew in high, hot and handsome and saddled right up on you before you even knew I was there. At that point you were in 3 vs 1 and that rarely ends well. My biggest threat was keeping the friendly drones from killing me   while I finished you off. I would suggest always having a wing man or sticking to fast slashing BnZ attacks if your behind enemy lines on a much used route. That way you can look around between attacks and bug out if need be. 

I’ll keep an eye out for you and we can wing up if your axis. I’ll cover while you beat up them nasty drones. 

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You can never shake off the russian pilot from your six. Thast just impossible. Thats the answer.

 

perharps a destiny of all the german pilots?

who knows...

 

 

Salut !

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well I decided to be nice and here is some advice:

 

Never underestimate your opponent. 

And always go to the limit of your plane. That means: lowest speed when needed, maximum speed when needed (forsage, closing your radiators), sharp maneuvers on the best flaps settings, you must find that. Be precise, be quick, still focus on the enemy and look  for the other contacts in the sky, All the hard maneuvers your enemies do, are with Flaps almost fully extended, with trimmed elevators and with throttle at zero, those are that maneuvers you are talking to yourself: How did he managed this???

Try it and you will see the difference.

 

But still remains what I posted above.

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Etherlight hit the nail on the head.  Practice makes perfect.  Berloga is the most efficient way to get your backside handed to you on a semi consistent basis and learn how to get out of those "oh crap" situations.

 

On a more technical level for dealing with bandits close in on your six, there's a general rule of thumb I use: 180, tight, wide, tight.

 

Assuming this fight started at level flight, generally you and your attacker will be traveling in some direction while the fight unfolds.  This is the engagement's forward velocity vector.  Generally you guys would be rolling around that vector.  

 

180: basic guns defense. Roll your wings 180 degrees from his wings and pill under his nose.  As soon as he rolls to follow, roll back 180(ish) and repeat until you are "out of phase" with your attacker. Out of phase meaning you guys are on opposite sides of the forward velocity vector. The it's time to pull him...

 

Tight: reduce throttle, idle if you need too.  Deploy flaps only if absolutely necessary to either stay in the air or slow down faster. Then it's time to get...

 

Wide: once you pull him hopefully you're still out of phase with him you want to minimize forward-aft displacement and maximize lateral (Side to side along the forward velocity vector) displacement.  This should bring the fight neutral with both people flight parallel (ish).  From here you can either disengage or nut up and bring him in...

 

Tight: again by anticipating his turns and rolls to position yourself for a snap shot or to saddle him up.  Careful though, the roles have been reversed and he may not give up that easy...

 

On mobile so this was a bit of a word vomit but I hope I got the idea across.  Read this then watch the videos linked and it should click... I hope.

 

 

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