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Ryzen versus 8700k IL2 and VR

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The problem with the i5-8400 is it doesn't have the clock speeds needed for VR in BoX/DCS. There isn't a single CPU on the market that can run those two at 90 fps out of the box at anything above minimum detail (or close to it). You absolutely have to overclock them to get good performance with the dated graphics engines we are stuck with. For the same reason, I also cannot recommend the i7-8700. If it isn't an intel k model able to hit 4.7 GHz, don't waste your money. You will be stuck at 45 fps or less regardless of if you get a $60 Pentium, a $100 Ryzen 3 or an i7-8700 (non-k). Now in terms of total processing power, the i5-8400 is a pretty good deal. I can definately recommend it, just as I can recommend the very comparable Ryzen 5 1600. But neither is suited to VR in BoX/DCS due to game engine limitations.

I just bought AM4 motherboard (Gigabyte AB350 Gaming 3) and i will buy Ryzen 5 1600 and DDR4 memory in two weeks time,so i definitely report back how it runs BOS for me with GTX 1060.

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I dont multiply anything ,nobody with brain should buy 4 core i3 over 6 core i5 in 2018 if both CPUs cost the same...4 cores just start hitting the wall in games and i am sure nobody play only Il2 BOS...Il2 mainly uses 2 cores but in DCS 2.5 all 4 cores on my i5 4690k hitting 100% most of the time,with nothing left on the table.

This makes no sense.  DCS is still single core and makes minimal use of a second core.  Even on my old i5 2500k hardly any CPU was used with DCS.

 

On my 8 core it barely uses 20% of CPU.  Up to 91% GPU is used on my GTX 1070.

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DCS 2.5 does use more than 2 cores but I haven't been able to nail down exactly what for. Their usage doesn't seem to impact FPS, but I have seen as much as 40-something % usage on my 8700k from DCS itself. I suspect it has something to do with speedtree, but as said, it doesn't seem to have any real impact on performance. Seems like an empty loop or something that needlessly eats CPU resources without actually doing anything.

 

Back on topic, Ryzen works great in both BoX and DCS outside of VR. With the vanilla 1600, you can reasonably expect 70+ fps minimums when paired with a 1060 6GB (that's what I got at 1440p ultra with the 1600x + RX 480 8GB). I don't know know of anyone using Vega for anything but crypto mining though. In theory the Vega 56 = a GTX 1070, but you simply cannot get one unless you order by the land/sea shipping crate for your Ethereum mining farm. That seems unlikely to change for the life of the RX Vega line of cards. They aren't anything special for gaming while also being a little too good at crypto mining.

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Poor Fishbed64, he doesn't want to listen to advice by what people painfully have found out in regards to Ryzen and VR, and will run full speed head-first into a wall. Like telling a child "don't put your hand on the plate, it's hot", and yet it says "no!" and wants to do it.

 

The amount of warping in VR in remotely complex scenes and scenery dragging below 45fps will be so much, he will stop playing afterwards, with a real bad aftertaste. Null immersion and brainpain, such people return to a monitor in frustration - without understanding that the PEBCAK - problem exists between chair and keyboard.

 

When the guys here told you their own experience with this Fishbed64, they were being nice, and already paid a high price for this experience. Noone forced them to tell you their estimates they could just let you run into open knives.

 

P.S. "It's 2018" is not an argument for anything.

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On 2/27/2018 at 5:24 AM, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Poor Fishbed64, he doesn't want to listen to advice by what people painfully have found out in regards to Ryzen and VR, and will run full speed head-first into a wall. Like telling a child "don't put your hand on the plate, it's hot", and yet it says "no!" and wants to do it.

 

The amount of warping in VR in remotely complex scenes and scenery dragging below 45fps will be so much, he will stop playing afterwards, with a real bad aftertaste. Null immersion and brainpain, such people return to a monitor in frustration - without understanding that the PEBCAK - problem exists between chair and keyboard.

 

When the guys here told you their own experience with this Fishbed64, they were being nice, and already paid a high price for this experience. Noone forced them to tell you their estimates they could just let you run into open knives.

 

P.S. "It's 2018" is not an argument for anything.

You get it all wrong...first i dont care about VR ,and second i have core i7 4770 and core i5 4690k so i DONT NEED UPGRADE and i also dont expect Ryzen 1600 OC 3.8ghz to be faster in BOS and DCS than those CPUs ,but i just want new platform and my pick is Ryzen 1600, if that CPU will be really that terrible i can return it any time and pick i5 8400...We will see and as i say i will report here when i have Ryzen PC up and running ,and share my experience.

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Given the choice for BoX and DCS, I would take the Ryzen 5 1600/1600x over the i5-8400. They have roughly equal IPC and clock speeds once accounting for overclocking and the all core turbo, so performance should be basically equal. But if you consider motherboards, Ryzen is cheaper and I think the better platform overall thanks to upgradability and features.

 

Last year I moved from an i5-4690 (locked) to the 1600x and was very happy with the move. The quicker RAM, higher IPC and higher clock speeds (4.0GHz is trivial with 1600x) gave a nice performance bump and the overall platform (M.2, USB-C...) was a lot nicer too. And Fenris greatly exaggerates Ryzen's problems in VR. My 1600x + RX 480 8GB never really dropped below 45 fps, even at absolute max detail in an epic mission. The problem was it almost never hit 90 fps either except at "balanced" detail with just about everything turned off. Outside of VR, 100+ fps was normal with max detail settings. DCS 2.x was the same way. Crank detail to max at 1440p and my GTX 1080 TI was the bottleneck, the 1600x wasn't anywhere near pegged.

 

The only reason I moved to the i7-8700k is for VR in those two games, which I hadn't even considered doing when I did the Ryzen build cause the Rift was still $700 for just the headset I think. And even in VR, the 1600x is fine for 99% of games. It's just BoX and DCS that fall short of a locked 90 fps with it.

 

Ranking the current generation of CPU's with BoX/DCS a primary concern, I think it goes like this (best to worst):

1) i7-8700k

2) i5-8600k

3) i7-8700

4) Ryzen 7 or 5 at 4.0GHz (should be trivial with an x model, non-x's will be subject to the silicon lottery)

5) i5-8400

6) Ryzen 5 2400G

7) i3-8350k

8) Ryzen 3 2200G

 

I ignored HEDT, servers and previous generation chips in that list.

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I came very close to ditching my Ryzen 1700 a week ago and going back to intel.  Disappointed with the low overclock of 3.85 and 3466 on my 4000mhz ram. I’ve changed my mind after optimising the ram. My system got a massive boost in performance by using the ram calc utility and calculating optimal timings for given ram speeds.  Took about 20 mins to copy all of the timings into the bios manually setting each advanced ram parameter.  The end result is a massive jump in performance resulting in faster boot, lag-free desktop and top score on cinebench.  Since doing the optimisation I have also updated the bios to the latest for my gigabyte gaming 5... That gave many new bios features including extra ram frequency choices. I was able to push the ram up from 3466 to 3522.

 

 

Edited by feathers632

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Its funny what results ive been seeing people post.

DCS im able to run at well above the minimum settings in VR on my Ryzen 7 1700 @ 3.8GHz and ram at 2933MHZ and 1080ti at 90fps solid unless im playing multiplayer.

IL2 I rarely see over 50fps in VR, and my older I7 6700K at 4.6GHz had about the same performance, however all my testing has been in multiplayer.

No matter what settings i set, no matter which guide ive followed on these forums I just don't see the performance people here claim to get in IL2 in VR with either CPU.

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On 04/03/2018 at 1:19 AM, DeadMeat0383 said:

Its funny what results ive been seeing people post.

DCS im able to run at well above the minimum settings in VR on my Ryzen 7 1700 @ 3.8GHz and ram at 2933MHZ and 1080ti at 90fps solid unless im playing multiplayer.

IL2 I rarely see over 50fps in VR, and my older I7 6700K at 4.6GHz had about the same performance, however all my testing has been in multiplayer.

No matter what settings i set, no matter which guide ive followed on these forums I just don't see the performance people here claim to get in IL2 in VR with either CPU.

 

I'll receive my 1080 ti in a couple of days. We'll have the exact same system then. I guess I shouldn't expect much out of it... :(

Btw, in a multiplayer game, isn't all the physics stuff supposed to be calculated by the server?

 

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Yes, on the rare occasion I hop into BoX MP, performance is almost always higher than SP.

 

Edit: The game will bottleneck on a single CPU thread on any CPU available with the 1080 TI at any resolution under 4k (including in VR) and may still do so at 4k. BoX uses very little GPU and a whole hell of a lot of a single CPU thread without doing much with all the others you have. My i7-8700k at 5.0 GHz bottlenecks my 1080 TI, so a Ryzen at 3.8-4.0GHz isn't going to do any better. You will be "CPU bottlenecked" at about 15% total CPU usage though, which is a bit irritating to say the least.

Edited by BeastyBaiter

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On 25/02/2018 at 5:45 PM, Fishbed64 said:

i am sure nobody play only Il2 BOS

I only play IL2 BOS VR

 

This is the IL2 BOS VR forum, When I recommended the i3-8350K is because the performance was measured in IL2 VR. So the recomendation was just for IL2 VR which is what matter in these discussions.

I can bet you that i5-8400, (despite is a better procesor for other duties) will produce a much lower performance (fps) than a well overclocked i3-8350K.

 

Anybody here with a i5-8400 able to run the test??  

Edited by chiliwili69

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Not that I know of but I could set my i7-8700k to not use hyper-threading and down clock it to 3.8GHz. I see no reason to do it though,  can say right now that it's going to be slower than the cheaper Ryzen 5 1600x at 4.0 GHz in BoX (once accounting for the motherboard). It's probably slower than the i3-8350k too once overclocked, though I just can't bring myself to recommend a quad core.

Edited by BeastyBaiter

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So i have my Ryzen PC up and running i chose r5 1500x for now over r5 1600 coz i want to wait for much improved Ryzen 3xxx 6 cores next year.

So far i am very very impressed with Ryzen everything works great out of the box paired with Gigabyte AB350 Gaming 3 mobo and 16gigs of Gskill Flare X 2400mhz ram(i now faster ram are better for Ryzen but 3200mhz flare x are just too expensive(70$ more) right now and from what i saw there is no difference in gaming performance with GTX 1060 or GTX1070 coz gpu is bottleneck in this case) and GTX 1060.

In terms of performance Bos and DCS 2.5 runs very well(fps are of course dependent on what mission you play or how many iA objects are on the map but in Mig 3 scramble mission from BOM single mission list i got around 90fps most of the time) on Ryzen even on default sett. with no OC ,its very close with my i7 4770,in general all the games i tested are very smooth on Ryzen somehow smoother than on intel 1150 platform, i also think that loading times in games are much improved over i7 4770 or i5 4690k. Overall i am very happy with Ryzen and i will definitely recommended especially Ryzen r5 1600 if you buying CPU for another 5 years or so.       

IMG_20180309_223516.jpg

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Hello! Another Ryzen new user, after asking on this forum and getting good advice for 1080p gaming I decided to go for a 1600. Everything is running brilliant. DCS 2.5 and Il-2. The temps are great, I can stream while playing without notiticing.

I had to go for 8Gb of ram but I have them running now on 2900 mhz. Hyper X 2x4 Gb if anyone is interested. It's great and so far no problems with stability. I can even play MP on DCS without being a stutter fest

 

I bought the Asus 350 plus mobo too as I heard it had a lot of potential for OC and safety, VRM etc..

 

After my whole PC died with my old PW I had to build a new rig except my GPU. I am using a Limited edition 970 100ME from MSI.  WIll stick with this GPU for a long time as it doesen't have the 3,5 + 0,5 Vram issue. The prices are crazy tho..

 

I am really impressed with the overall performance and as I work a lot with the PC I welcome all of the potential of the 1600. I know for sure that a 8400 could make better framerates but I would still prefer this beast for all of the threads and temps. 

PS: Didn't OC the cpu yet

Here is a video in DCS.

a9fbf680bccd3b9abff3b949dc136005.jpg

 

Regards!

Edited by LF_ManuV

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On 3/11/2018 at 10:25 AM, Fishbed64 said:

So i have my Ryzen PC up and running i chose r5 1500x for now over r5 1600 coz i want to wait for much improved Ryzen 3xxx 6 cores next year.

So far i am very very impressed with Ryzen everything works great out of the box paired with Gigabyte AB350 Gaming 3 mobo and 16gigs of Gskill Flare X 2400mhz ram(i now faster ram are better for Ryzen but 3200mhz flare x are just too expensive(70$ more) right now and from what i saw there is no difference in gaming performance with GTX 1060 or GTX1070 coz gpu is bottleneck in this case) and GTX 1060.

In terms of performance Bos and DCS 2.5 runs very well(fps are of course dependent on what mission you play or how many iA objects are on the map but in Mig 3 scramble mission from BOM single mission list i got around 90fps most of the time) on Ryzen even on default sett. with no OC ,its very close with my i7 4770,in general all the games i tested are very smooth on Ryzen somehow smoother than on intel 1150 platform, i also think that loading times in games are much improved over i7 4770 or i5 4690k. Overall i am very happy with Ryzen and i will definitely recommended especially Ryzen r5 1600 if you buying CPU for another 5 years or so.       

IMG_20180309_223516.jpg

 

Your system is really similar to mine!

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Hello there !

 

On 19/02/2018 at 9:35 PM, BeastyBaiter said:

[...] A case can be made for 7700k, but I really can't recommend it due to poor value. [...]

 

I'm about to buy this one, as my Z170-based motherboard won't accept anything higher. I'm surprised to read this as I thought there wasn't so much advantage with Intel's Core 8th generation over the previous, aside for 2 additional physical cores, which won't bring anything to flight sims such as IL2...

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25 minutes ago, ShugNinx said:

I'm about to buy this one, as my Z170-based motherboard won't accept anything higher. I'm surprised to read this as I thought there wasn't so much advantage with Intel's Core 8th generation over the previous, aside for 2 additional physical cores, which won't bring anything to flight sims such as IL2...

The 7700K is very good if you find one for a low price. Otherwise, it's tough to recommend over the newer CPUs.

 

It's curious that you have a Z170 board. Are you upgrading from a 6600K/6700K? If so, the 7700K is unlikely to be a significant improvement.

Edited by Mitthrawnuruodo

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7 minutes ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

The 7700K is very good if you find one for a low price. Otherwise, it's tough to recommend over the newer CPUs.

I can buy the i7-7700K for 350€ here in France. I've seen Silicon Lottery offers starting at 350$ for a 5GHz delidded and tested 7700K, but it'll come with much higher shipping fares + import taxes...

 

Quote

It's curious that you've got a Z170 board. Are you upgrading from a 6600K/6700K? If so, the 7700K is unlikely to be a significant upgrade.

 

I currently own a 2 year old rig, based on a Gigabyte Z170-HD3P mobo with an i5-6600 upgraded with a 1080Ti last summer (from a 970). The latter is likely struggling because of the 6600 now.

Edited by ShugNinx

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12 minutes ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

That makes sense. At 3.9 GHz, it is rather limiting. 

 

OK, thx for dissipating that uncomfortable doubt ;-) 

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In your specific case, the 7700k does make sense. My comment on the 7700k applies to those getting both a new mobo and CPU. If you're going from a locked 6th/7th gen Intel CPU to an unlocked one, the 7700k is a good option. 350€ seems extremely high to me, but maybe it's due to taxes. I would expect around $250 USD at this point for it as retailers are trying to dump their inventory now that the 8700k is pretty easy to get a hold of. Quick and dirty converter shows the expected price of the 7700k to be around 200€.

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2 hours ago, ShugNinx said:

I can buy the i7-7700K for 350€ here in France. I've seen Silicon Lottery offers starting at 350$ for a 5GHz delidded and tested 7700K, but it'll come with much higher shipping fares + import taxes...

 

 

I currently own a 2 year old rig, based on a Gigabyte Z170-HD3P mobo with an i5-6600 upgraded with a 1080Ti last summer (from a 970). The latter is likely struggling because of the 6600 now.

This is really crazy price for i7 7700K,...you can buy 6 core i5 8600k + very good motherboard for 350e ,at least in my country(CR), i7 7700K cost around 290e here... 

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This is confusing, this was a VR thread before. Right now it's placed in Hardware, and the thread title still refers to VR. The guys like chiliwili, me, and others were referring to VR performance.

 

To clarify:  If you play IL-2/DCS/other games in 2D, a Ryzen should be perfectly capable, that is correct. Here it's just not VR ready.

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20 hours ago, BeastyBaiter said:

350€ seems extremely high to me, but maybe it's due to taxes.

 

20 hours ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

It does seem ather high. I see an 8700K available for a similar price. 

 

18 hours ago, Fishbed64 said:

This is really crazy price for i7 7700K,...you can buy 6 core i5 8600k + very good motherboard for 350e ,at least in my country(CR), i7 7700K cost around 290e here... 

 

350€ is the common price among the main IT parts resellers, it can down to 300€ from some shady low cost resellers, or up to 450€ for a delidded version with liquid metal thermal paste and new copper lid. So yes I guess taxes and resellers' margins are quite high around here.

Edited by ShugNinx
grammar and so on...

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Hmm, just checked amazon and it seems you're right. Must have finally dumped all their stock and now their trying to scalp with the few new 7700k's still floating around. I recommend a full upgrade to an 8600k at that price or checking ebay for a 6700k/7700k second hand.

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1 hour ago, BeastyBaiter said:

I recommend a full upgrade to an 8600k at that price or checking ebay for a 6700k/7700k second hand.

 

I wasn't planning on changing the mobo, and am very reluctant to buy second hand 'K' versions, as you never know what kind of silly stress it might have been put on...

I'll stick with a brand new 7700K, but thanks for your input.

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Usually Intel does not reduce the prices of old CPUs. They tend to keep the same prices as long as stocks lasts. So (if buying new) don't expect to get the previous top of the line CPU much cheaper just because they have a new CPU generation out.

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I currently have a 4970k which I've been using since it first released, with 32gb of ddr3 1866mhz ram.

My FPS in VR is usually around 45 with balanced settings. I've been considering an upgrade for a while and I must admit, that my head was turned a bit by ryzen 2 or + or whatever the correct terminology is.

I was reading about boost 2 which sounds interesting.

 

uhjshfc.png
 

Whatever I get, All i'm really interested in is having significantly better performance than I have now. It doesn't have to be the absolute best performance money can buy, but it does need to make me feel that the upgrade was worth it.

If any of you do happen to get ryzen2, please do share your VR BoX results, because I am interested to know how it stands up to intel's offerings.

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I plan to buy on the day of release R7 2700X, either Asrock taichi or Asus Crosshair mobo, 4000 mhz B-die ram and M.2 ssd. Will spend some time testing current and new config, will see how far can new cpu be pushed and how important high speed ram is. Will probably use Balaplan track or whatever its called since its comparable with all other results guys have. 

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Non-OC performance should be a fair bit better due to the new  boost mode. Currently Ryzen gets a 100 MHz all core boost over the base clock in all situations unless you use process lasso to shove all 5 million windows processes onto a single thread. The new boost setup should result in having either the top boost speed or close to it in most situations without such non-sense. Overclocked, I expect the max boosted speed of the 2700x to be the brick wall we hit again with overclocking, so 4.35 to 4.4 GHz will be all I expect out of them. Still, that's pretty good for 6 and 8 core chips with SMT/HT.

 

They still won't be the best CPU's for BoX, due to the 4.3-4.4 GHz clock compared to 4.7+ on Intel's current offerings. But given the 1800x is already faster than the 8700k both overclocked and out of the box in properly threaded applications, AMD is really going to pull ahead of Intel in more general cases.

 

For non-gaming, Coffee Lake is slow, power hungry and hot. It's the new Bulldozer.:lol:

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On 20/3/2018 at 7:40 PM, =362nd_FS=Hiromachi said:

Will probably use Balaplan track or whatever its called since its comparable with all other results guys have.

 

The Balapan track doesn´t work anymore with IL-2 v3.001.

Now we have a new track thanks to Samuel. Please, all of you are welcomed to run the new test:

 

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Ok, thanks for the update. It's still almost a month till 2700X release though, I hope there wont be mobo and cpu shortage in Poland like it was a year ago.

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Not a very technical  summary, but this weekend I swapped my Ryzen 1800X system for an i7-8700K.  IL-2 would normally run at 45 FPS with ASW enabled, but now I'm consistently running at 90 FPS.  What a difference!  (ignore my signature, I gotta update that!)

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2 hours ago, BlueHeron said:

Not a very technical  summary, but this weekend I swapped my Ryzen 1800X system for an i7-8700K.  IL-2 would normally run at 45 FPS with ASW enabled, but now I'm consistently running at 90 FPS.  What a difference!  (ignore my signature, I gotta update that!)

Ryzen needs very low latency ram timings and ram as fast as possible. Steamvr has boosted everyone's performance with vr games since auto supersampling was introduced. 

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