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Kalthios

Force Feedback Induced Camera Movement Stutter

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On ‎11‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 11:51 AM, [DBS]TH0R said:

 

You can offset this, to a good extent, with TiR profile modification.

 

(Speed and Smooth settings, under motion control - sliders)

Having a good TrackIR profile always helps, but you'll still get lag from the camera smoothing.

 

Support said: "If we can repeat your situation, we will definitely deal with this issue."

I responded with: "Try cycling force feedback on and off and seeing the difference. Make sure noise filtering and camera smoothing are at 0. Little hard to notice with just mouse, but it is silky smooth with force feedback off and a little choppy with force feedback on. It is more noticeable with head tracking. I am using a 1080p monitor without freesync or gsync."

 

It may be helpful if some more people that also have this issue contact support as well. https://il2sturmovik.com/support/ Click on the red button labeled "I have not found a solution in the FAQ".

Edited by Kalthios
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I've spent a ridiculous amount of time trying to fix this on my own. Messing with whatever files that aren't in machine code. Nothing in the input folder matters, they either aren't read at runtime or are overwritten.

 

Also found that Under realism if you turn on Simplified Controls, the stuttering goes away.

 

Here's a short video demonstrating the stuttering:

 

Video starts with smooth head motion with auto-level on and then starts to stutter when disabled. When auto-level is turned back on the stuttering begins to decrease until head motion is smooth.

 

 

69 posts.. nice.

Edited by Kalthios

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I'm sure some of the effect types are not being sent to the joystick, probably going to the pilots head by mistake. Played with CloD and the FF effects are much more complex and dynamic.

 

Just looking through the files in the input directory, I noticed the mistake that periodic effects are misspelled as "pereodic_effects", referenced here: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/windows/desktop/ee417541(v%3dvs.85) . But maybe in their implementation that is consistent. Impossible to tell without having a look at the source files.

Edited by Kalthios

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I suggested to support they test with realism on expert and linked to them my stutter video, they responded with:

 

Probably you used TrackIR for survey.
This situation can sometimes happen on some systems that share TrackIR and MS "Sidewinder Force Feedback 2". With other FFB joysticks, this situation was not registered.
Our specialists are working to reduce the probability of occurrence of this situation.
Unfortunately, we do not have information on the final date for this issue.
 
For now, we can recommend you:
- if possible, connect your "Sidewinder Force Feedback 2" to one USB controller and other USB devices to another USB controller
- try to reduce the "Shaking" parameter in the "Settings" => "Input Devices" in the game
 
I responded with:
 
I get stuttering if I dont turn on the trackIR software and use the mouse to look around. It is just harder to demonsteate because the mouse is only two-dimensional rotation while the trackir is fully 3D rotation and translation.
 
I'll try uninstalling and disconnecting trackir. I'll then connect the sidewinder to it's own USB controller and the test. I'll then connect trackir and reinstall drivers and test. I'll let you know the results. 
 
In the meantime it may help your directinput programmer fix the problem if you give them a copy of my test results.
 
 

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Tested with MS FFB2 on its own USB controller (connected to front panel usb): still stutters.

With TrackIR uninstalled and disconnected: still stutters.

 

Here is a video with the stuttering with just mouse, trackIR not installed or connected, just using the mouse to look around:

 

The problem simply resides in 777 Studio's DirectInput8 force feedback implementation for the MS FFB2, either within input.dll or inputinterface.dll, and the source files used to compile them. 

Edited by Kalthios
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3. Force Feedback joystick owners who experience stutters can alter the new value in startup.cfg that governs the maximum frequency of FFB effects polling to try to eliminate them (update_freq parameter in [KEY = force_feedback] section can be set to a value from 0.5 Hz to 10 Hz, example: update_freq = 10.0);

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I don't see the line, do we add  it ourselves?

 

 

[KEY = force_feedback]
    amplitude = 1.00000
    enabled = 1
    force = 1.00000

Edited by 7./JG26_Smokejumper

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Yes, add update_freq = 0.5, so it reads:

 

[KEY = force_feedback]
    amplitude = 1.00000
    enabled = 1
    force = 1.00000

    update_freq = 0.5

 

This is a workaround, reducing 95% of the stuttering. The force feedback effects that aren't going to the joystick and are instead effecting the pilot's head are still doing so, but at a maximum of only once every two seconds with update_freq = 0.5.

 

What is great about this workaround as opposed to noise filtering or camera smoothing, is that we can now look around without huge amounts of lag and at least we have force feedback ramp and constant effects, if not periodic ones.

 

I'm hopeful that this issue will be sorted out soon and will keep trying to work with the devs and support to help stomp out the bugs.

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i ve seen this , no time to test it today nor until this week end , will do on saturday sunday and tell you here  ... hope it will finally work !!!!!!!!!

Fingers crossed 😃

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28 minutes ago, Kalthios said:

Yes, add update_freq = 0.5, so it reads:

 

[KEY = force_feedback]
    amplitude = 1.00000
    enabled = 1
    force = 1.00000

    update_freq = 0.5

 

This is a workaround, reducing 95% of the stuttering. The force feedback effects that aren't going to the joystick and are instead effecting the pilot's head are still doing so, but at a maximum of only once every two seconds with update_freq = 0.5.

 

What is great about this workaround as opposed to noise filtering or camera smoothing, is that we can now look around without huge amounts of lag and at least we have force feedback ramp and constant effects, if not periodic ones.

 

I'm hopeful that this issue will be sorted out soon and will keep trying to work with the devs and support to help stomp out the bugs.

 

Settings fits, I have BOS recently uninstalled, but I'll tell this news to all friends.

Kalthios did you do for the community, a real piece of work, thank you very much.

 

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Then ... Does it works better? No Stuttering?

 

I´ve got one FFB2 waiting in a box and a G940 working, but FFB2 feeling is the best for me :D. Can I unbox it? 😄

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36 minutes ago, III/JG52_Necro_v said:

Then ... Does it works better? No Stuttering?

 

I´ve got one FFB2 waiting in a box and a G940 working, but FFB2 feeling is the best for me :D. Can I unbox it? 😄

 

For now you will probably get better force feedback from the G940 as I believe many of the effects for the MS FFB2 are currently not playing properly. I'm not sure though because I only own the MS FFB2.

41 minutes ago, =FCU=PetSild said:

Kalthios did you do for the community, a real piece of work, thank you very much. 

 

Thank you, I've put a bunch of time into this, probably too much! Maybe Santa will send me some IL-2 expansions. 😃

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Does this lessen the quality of the FFB effects on the stick?

 

EDIT:  Yes, 0.5 completely screws up the FFB as to make it completely unplayable. 

Edited by II./JG1_EmerlistDavjack

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42 minutes ago, II./JG1_EmerlistDavjack said:

Does this lessen the quality of the FFB effects on the stick?

The FFB effects that I tested it with, firing weapons and stalling the airplane, start when they are supposed to, but can end up to two seconds later than they should. It isn't very noticeable while in a dog fight, and is worth the trade-off. The constant centering force seems unaffected.

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Huh, for me it was absolutely terrible.  I could yank the stick over and feel no force and then it would kick in after I was at full deflection.  The centering force seemed borked completely.

 

Luckily for me, the settings the Th0R gave me at the end of the first page work well enough that I barely notice the problem.  It's just too bad we have to compromise. 

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Saladin, no need to be rude and call Kalthios' advice fake.  He has done a lot of work figuring this out.   If that doesnt work for you, try using this post's options from Th0R:

 

And if that isn't perfect, set the smoothing to 100 as I have done, but the most important things seem to be the Inertia options set to 0.  I use this and currently have been happy enough given my OpenTrack setup.  It has a very slight lag to it, but is more than useable to the point where I barely consider the bug anymore.   

 

 

On mine, the trigger is silver.  I have one of the wide-based USB FFB2s, likely late model.

 

Also, it should be noted that I have experienced vastly different "qualities" of FFB while in the same flight, if I press Escape and go to the Input options, and then close back out, it resets the FFB.  I have to do this whenever the FFB gets the "engine pulsating" bug that happens a lot on takeoff in Rise of Flight (but also happens in IL2).  Each time the FFB is reset with the Options>Input>Close method, it seems to have a different relationship with FFB strength.  

 

Conclusion:  This game is a bit borked for FFB, but since it is such a niche tech these days, I can't be too angry.  Anymore.

Edited by II./JG1_EmerlistDavjack

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I added the line (update_freq = 0.5) and it WORKS for me. Heavy stutter, that made the game unplayable, while looking around with FF enabled is GONE. I am new to BoS and I am still tuning the system and the game setup to get the best experience but I can confirm that the update frequency option made a radical improvement for MSWFF2 + looking around (TrackIR4 in my case).

Regarding other users reporting the borked and erratic behaviour of the FF, I have been flying with MSWFF2 since 2001 and can tell that this joystick lives in a world of its own. I flew it under Win98, XP, Win7 and Win10. At first, under Win 10, FF behaved differently and unusually everytime I ran the game but then I came across Mr. 54RAF_Talisman's third post and his tips in the thread below and it helped me. I connect power first before connecting USB, and I use USB 2.0 port that is directly on the motherboard. Do not use extensions, USB 3.0 or front panel USB ports. Always use the same port. Following these three steps made the joystick's FF behave and work correctly everytime I run the game. There are still certain quirks, if I toogle FF in game the stick sometimes goes limp (no forces/centering at all) - this is fixed by restarting the game. MSWFF2 is capable of being used without FF as well, being properly centered by the motors, even though there were users in other threads claiming otherwise.  

 

Edited by HF_Kami
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I believe some of the inconsistent results we are seeing could be caused by differences between our MS FFB2 models.

 

I have one with the red trigger while Davjack has a gray trigger. His responds poorly to update_freq while mine responds favorably. There may be a difference in PIDs or friendly names.

 

There are differences in force feedback implementation for different joystick models, but I don't know how they are defined as I don't have access to the source code. I suspect either by VID and PID, or perhaps friendly name.

 

The gray version could be using the default, while the red uses the specific implementation, or vice versa.

Edited by Kalthios
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I have the one with the Red light, Red trigger and Red top buttons.

I didn't have to add the line, just started the game, came out of it and restarted it and the line was there.

Changed mine to 0.5, and altered the smoothing as well and its made a massive difference.

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Ok ! I thought this advice came from DEVS...!  that's why i was disappointed.

 

To answer Kalthios : i have both but i am using the red one. The Camera trick is not viable for me. I have noticed no difference with  "0.5"    (Smoothness FF 0% ,  camera 0%)

 

Thank you anyway. 

 

 

 

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Working again using 0.5 :). I´ll check online in Berloga (many planes).

 

Trigger Red. I have other Sidewinder with Silver trigger I´ll test next week

Edited by III/JG52_Necro_v

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1 hour ago, I/JG2_Saladin said:

camera 0%

 

You may want to try increasing camera smoothness to something between 50%-70%. 100% is very slow, but there are intermediate values that give fast enough camera movement and significantly decrease the jerkiness. 0 smoothing is not good for me regardless of whether I have FFB on or off.

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I've tried a range of settings, so far I've settled on (not 0.5). Using MSFFB2, for the record.

 

[KEY = force_feedback]
    amplitude = 1.00000
    enabled = 1
    force = 1.00000
    update_freq = 5.000000

 

I've gone as low as 1 but noticed a delay there. I'm sure 0.5 is even worse. 2 may also be enough, but I think that 5 updates per second are probably enough and it's the setting where I clearly noticed that stuttering is reduced, if not eliminated.

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When in the air, stuttering goes away after lowering landing gear, but returns when landing and taxiing, or when raised again while in flight. 

 

It looks like the culprit is a periodic effect, perhaps a shaking effect, that is driven by landing gear suspension movement when the gear is down, or driven by control surfaces when the gear is up.

 

Perhaps the effect is not changing what is driving it, in turning maneuvers with the gear down, and also right after takeoff, there is stuttering before the gear is raised. It could just be the bouncing of the landing gear suspension driving a force feedback effect, but I am uncertain of how the system changes as the landing gear is stowed. After the landing gear is raised, the stuttering is very constant.

Edited by Kalthios

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Are there any planes that don't have suspension systems on their landing gear? I thought perhaps the stuka, but it does. Perhaps the I-16 or some biplanes? I'd like to test to see if stuttering goes away if the airplane doesn't have landing gear suspension but I don't have access to those aircraft.

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AnPetrovich says:

 

Thanks for PM, but you no longer need to spend time on these tests. We exactly know the essence of the problem and this problem appears every time when FFB receives update of the force or shaking parameters. It doesn't matter what the source of this update: aerodynamics, landing gear, or gunfire. In the case you described the source is aerodynamic shaking because of landing gear down at high airspeed. Just slow down the speed or retract the landing gear and the shaking will go away, with the statters. All we need is work on the low level of API for FFB devices, but we can't do it right now. I hope we will find the solution somewhen. Thanks for cooperation!
S!

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hello community, 

so they finally identified stuttering issue with ffb. I hope they will address that in the upcoming patch.  I have a ffb logistics g940 and also stuttering .

 

happy new year to all of you and families

 

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On 12/5/2018 at 6:17 PM, Kalthios said:

3. Force Feedback joystick owners who experience stutters can alter the new value in startup.cfg that governs the maximum frequency of FFB effects polling to try to eliminate them (update_freq parameter in [KEY = force_feedback] section can be set to a value from 0.5 Hz to 10 Hz, example: update_freq = 10.0);

 

I was happy to read that in the patchlog, immediately went to my startup.cfg file to see it was set as in the provided exemple yet : "update_freq = 10.0"

To me most of my smoothness problems now are related to netcode, as I can run a QMB with 8 fighters + 8 bombers over all ground units ticked, even with 4/8 clouds @59-60 fps and without any noticeable stutters.

 

Yet I still didn't understand what setting is recommended regarding that "update_freq".. Any advice ? (I'll try with 0.5 to see..)

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I believe there is memory management errors in IL2 GBs' force feedback implementation which causes unpredictable behavior. You'll have to experiment with the update frequency and see what works best for you.

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I started this thread One Day, One Month, and One Year ago, and 777 Studios' stance is still:

 

"...We exactly know the essence of the problem... All we need is work on the low level of API for FFB devices, but we can't do it right now."

 

Wonder when we will get that fix? 😟

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+1 ,

i' m playing with a 5.0 value in the update frequency line , and till this line was introduced in the Start up CFG , i' ve been able to reduce the smoothing of the camera to 80 % instead of the 100 % i was running before to get rid of  the stuttering .

To tell the truth ,  if 80 % smooth is better than 100 %  , the view is by far not as free , as fast and as "natural" that it is with  0% smoothing , especially in fast movements ... so it 's still a walkaround ...

 

Edited by 13Nrv

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