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What will air combat on the western front in 1945 look like?


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#1 GarandM1

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 01:59

Some of you guys know a lot more about this stuff than I do, so what new tech can we expect in BoBP? How will combat be affected by it? I'm curious to see what everyone is expecting.


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#2 CUJO1970

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 02:31

It is impossible to simulate the actual late-war western front, computers may never be able to simulate it. As far as the sim is concerned - combat will be faster and higher than it is now - especially if objective-based co-ops develop. Aircraft will be faster, and more heavily armed - closing speeds will be greater.

 

People that are experienced, and good at tactics will continue to do well. Lazy players that expect their aircraft to compensate for their impatience will get destroyed as usual, only in even more spectacular fashion. Some won't understand why their favorite plane isn't saving them - others will learn to adapt.


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#3 BlitzPig_EL

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 02:34

Depends on if it is multiplayer or single player.

 

Single player will have a much more historic balance of machines.

 

Multiplayer will have numbers of Luftwaffe planes all out of proportion with what was encountered by the Allies at the end stage of the war in Europe.  With the exception of the one day of Operation Bodenplatte, the Luftwaffe was essentially a non existent threat to the Allies.  They had lots of new aeroplanes, but no fuel and few pilots for them.  Which I admit from our perspective will be quite boring indeed if modeled historically.

 

This is why I don't really like late war scenarios.   If properly done, on a server with say 40 players, you should have maybe 10 guys in 109s, up against 30 Allied pilots in a mix of aircraft types that will not only hold control of the sky, but effectively suppress his ability to operate in the open on his own airfields.

 

What multiplayer will be is what we have now, good players doing well regardless of which side they fly for.


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#4 Cathal_Brugha

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 02:47

New tech will be jets (ME262) and K-14 gyro gunsight for P-51.


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#5 =CFC=Conky

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 02:59

Combat will be fast and brutal, faster, better-armed kites.

 

Can't wait  :P .

 

Good hunting,

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#6 Rjel

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 03:01

Lots of shiny aluminum.


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#7 Y-29.Silky

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 03:08

If properly done, on a server with say 40 players, you should have maybe 10 guys in 109s, up against 30 Allied pilots

 

 

 

Ugh, this stuff drive me nuts. The last P-51 memoir I read there were 30 BF-109's and 40 MC-202's against only a couple squadrons of P-51's during a raid in 1945. 

I'll reinstall the e-book to get the exact numbers.  He had a lot of milk runs in Italy, but when they started bombing Czezh, he said the Luftwaffe brought everything.


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#8 Pail

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 03:17

The only limiting factor for the Allies was the weather.

 

Part of the planning for the German land operation required the attack to be conducted under the cover of bad winter weather,

 

It initially succeeded, but the weather also grounded...

 

However, the weather proved particularly bad and operations were shut down.

 

However, the same bad weather

 

had lost momentum owing to Allied resistance and clearing weather

 

I hate to say it but... ;)


Edited by Pail, 04 February 2018 - 03:19.

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#9 ShamrockOneFive

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 03:19

I'm re-reading the 2nd Tactical Air Force Vol 1 through 3 by Christopher Shores and although on a strategic level the Allies numbers far outweigh the Germans, at the individual tactical level the numbers are fairly even. It's not unusual for a 8 ship Tempest patrol to find itself outnumbered. The key difference is something like Bodenplatte where the Allies lost a couple hundred aircraft but were so well equipped in reserves that it took days for new aircraft and replacement pilots to arrive on the front. The Luftwaffe didn't have the same ability for replenishment.

 

Multiplayer won't be that far off of a real air battle in terms of numbers.

 

As far as actual combat is concerned... tactics are going to be basically the same. Just with aircraft that are faster and better armed on the whole. You cover a lot more ground in a late war air battle at times. Still, its not dramatically different and tactics that work with the aircraft we have now will work in '45.


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#10 Riderocket

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 03:31

it wont look any different to what we have now, only with no ground attack and everyone flying around at almost mach speeds


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#11 Wolfram-Harms

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 04:01

In the real war, the 1945 air war was already lost by the Germans, before the war ended - the Allied had reached air superiority.

While the British, French and American pilots had a limited service time, after which they got exchanged so they wouldn't "crack up"

from the combat stress, the German Luftwaffe could not offer the same for their pilots - they just didn't have enough fresh men.

German pilots served throughout the whole war.

Many of them must have been wrecked by 'uppers' and 'downers' and all the permanent combat stress.

Many of the veterans and old aces had already fallen.

And when the Americans came to Germany, there were mostly young pilots in the air, who had not yet learned how to manoeuvre

and how to fight their superior opponents.

These young fellers are mostly what you can see getting shot down in the American gun cam footage of late 1944 and 1945.

 

Operation Bodenplatte was the last big gasp of the Luftwaffe. It could not stop the far stronger Allied forces anymore.

Of course there was the JV44 of Galland, where he had assembled several "old aces" - and they had the most advanced technology -

the Messerschmidt Me 262; plus Focke-Wulf 190 D-9 Staffeln to shield their takeoffs and landings.

But they were too few to stop or even only delay the endless bomber streams flying over the "Reich".

 

Whilst several interesting and some real high-tech developments were still getting designed and even built in rather small numbers,

the war was already lost for Germany - it was only a question of the remaining time.

Young half-educated pilots were sent up in Rammstaffeln (ram units) to run their fighters into the bombers to bring them down -

a kind of German Kamikaze. Desperate measures - the "Eagle" could not defend the skies above the homeland anymore.


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#12 Rjel

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 04:20

In the real war, the 1945 air war was already lost by the Germans, before the war ended - the Allied had reached air superiority.

While the British, French and American pilots had a limited service time, after which they got exchanged so they wouldn't "crack up"

from the combat stress, the German Luftwaffe could not offer the same for their pilots - they just didn't have enough fresh men.

I don't think that is accurate, at least as far as the U.S. pilots were concerned. More than a few pilots flew multiple tours, fighters and bombers. They rotated out as often as not due to moving to higher positions of command, leave and to go back home to share their combat experience with pilots in training. Too many times comments like yours make it sound like Allied pilots had it made. Made except for flying their missions hundreds of miles from home base, over enemy territory with little chance of escape if they went down. They deserve a lot more respect than the little chestnut, "they just went home when they were done with their tour".


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#13 VC_

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 09:22

Why do people think we'll suddenly have high altitude, near-mach combat in BoBp multiplayer? I think the missions will still have ground target objectives (like airfields, as in the historical operation) and various fortifications and logistics trains to bomb and strafe. If anything I expect it to be very close air support heavy, and things like P-51s either flying in their element finding nobody or having to give up their altitude advantage to actually help the ground fight, much like the LW have to do now vs. the VVS.

 

Also, inB4 anyone else calls it, the forum will be flooded with "Spitfire IX OP" or "Stop the Mk.IX spam" threads, in the meta that plane will likely dominate so much it won't even be funny.


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#14 schurem

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 09:53

What will air combat on the western front in 1945 look like?

 

neeeeeEEEEAAARRRROOOOOWWWWWrrrrrrr DAKKADAKKADAKKA wwwrRRRRRRROOOOAAAAARRRRRRR RATATAT RATATAT kerBOOM! 


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#15 Juri_JS

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 09:55

During the last month of the war the Luftwaffe had largely stopped intercepting daylight heavy bomber raids. The only exception were units equipped with the Me 262. The most common mission types when looking at documents from fighter units from this periode were either fighter-bomber or fighter-bomber intercept missions. So historically we should see mostly Luftwaffe missions at lower altitudes, usually flown by a single Staffel.
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#16 Dakpilot

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 10:15

Late war will be fun, but it will punish tactical mistakes more due to high performance of aircraft and generally much more effective weapons

 

often if you make a mistake it will be your last, I also feel (but it is just opinion) that with higher performance, experienced Pilots with good knowledge of their aircraft limits, will widen the gap between newcomers or those with less experience on type

 

because I am a fairly crap combat pilot I usually prefer the slightly more sedate 41-mid/early 43 period, generally because a good engagement can be fun for longer, but late war has an excitement all of its own so it is all win

 

Cheers Dakpilot


Edited by Dakpilot, 04 February 2018 - 10:17.

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#17 Luftschiff

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 13:07

It will be just like in Redtails!


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#18 Mac_Messer

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 13:08

The core won`t change - a strategic operation broken down into tactical operations performed by players.

 

Aircraft - much heavier and faster, less maneuverable, powerful weapons.

 

What I`m looking forward to is the change of landscape. The green fields of Netherlands, the countryside, roads etc.

 

If we got some upgrrades in tank warfare, it could be much different from EF. Given the right map, we could simulate some of the heavy bettles near Caen.


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#19 unreasonable

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 13:20

The core won`t change - a strategic operation broken down into tactical operations performed by players.

 

Aircraft - much heavier and faster, less maneuverable, powerful weapons.

 

What I`m looking forward to is the change of landscape. The green fields of Netherlands, the countryside, roads etc.

 

If we got some upgrrades in tank warfare, it could be much different from EF. Given the right map, we could simulate some of the heavy bettles near Caen.

 

I agree  - except about the "green fields" part - although I suppose that depends on us getting a summer or spring version of the map. Not much green grass to be seen in NW Europe in the middle of winter IIRC.  (I am not there now, thank God).


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#20 ST_ami7b5

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 13:22

Not very exciting for me, I would prefer Africa/Mediterenian/Pacific/Finland...
But pre-ordered.


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#21 AeroAce

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 13:24

For online play the server design will dictate how the play unfolds. It is that simple.
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#22 Wolfram-Harms

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 13:25

They deserve a lot more respect than the little chestnut, "they just went home when they were done with their tour".

 

I didn't mean to be disrespectful.

But it is still a fact, that the German pilots had to fly throughout the whole war, until they broke or fell.

And the Allied pilots did not.

As a matter of fact, it is even rather respectful to mention that fact.

Cause it explains, how German pilots could have hundreds of kills, whilst no Allied pilot neither from Britain, France or America, got even near such numbers.


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"One thing I've learned is this: Never allow yourself to hate a people because of the actions of a few. Hatred and bigotry destroyed my nation, and millions died.
I would hope that most people did not hate Germans because of the Nazis, or Americans because of slaves.

Never hate, it only eats you alive. Keep an open mind and always look for the good in people. You may be surprised at what you find."      [ Erich Hartmann ]


#23 Wolfram-Harms

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 13:32

As a "skinner", I am looking forward to using the late war German colours, RLM 80 - 83, and the greensih undersides "eggshell".

 

fzygcdgxctqfnb8zg.jpg


Edited by Wolfram-Harms, 04 February 2018 - 13:38.

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"One thing I've learned is this: Never allow yourself to hate a people because of the actions of a few. Hatred and bigotry destroyed my nation, and millions died.
I would hope that most people did not hate Germans because of the Nazis, or Americans because of slaves.

Never hate, it only eats you alive. Keep an open mind and always look for the good in people. You may be surprised at what you find."      [ Erich Hartmann ]


#24 6./ZG76_Archie

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 13:34

Some people will fly in the stratosphere hoping to find an opponent while the rest of us will be down in the mud blowing **** up.


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#25 II./JG77_BlueCordBandit

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 13:55

It will be just like in Redtails!


Lol...I hope our version of the 262 isnt armed with 4x MG17s like those depicted in Redtails!
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#26 VC_

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 15:51

As a "skinner", I am looking forward to using the late war German colours, RLM 80 - 83, and the greensih undersides "eggshell".

 

Yup, Luftwaffe 1944-45 is a goldmine for widely varied camo schemes and interesting colours. You get some planes with engine cowlings replaced and they end up having 6 to 8 different colours in the camouflage, plus bare metal underwing panels. Then the RVT band as icing on the cake. It's a fantastic patchwork.


Edited by VC_, 04 February 2018 - 15:53.

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#27 GridiroN

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 17:13

As usual, the topic has gotten somewhat out of hand with people debating history instead of answering the actual question, lol. 

 

Personally, I think there will be more altitude fighting because A) most of the fighters are altitude fighters, B) the German planes we're getting (G4, G6 G12) won't be competitive vs Typhoons and Spitfires on the deck, and C) German players are used to flying around a 6K now anyway. 

 

The only reason we don't have high altitude fighting now is because the 109 is several degrees the superior at altitude to every Russian fighter currently available. 


Edited by GridiroN, 04 February 2018 - 17:13.

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#28 Rjel

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 19:12

neeeeeEEEEAAARRRROOOOOWWWWWrrrrrrr DAKKADAKKADAKKA wwwrRRRRRRROOOOAAAAARRRRRRR RATATAT RATATAT kerBOOM! 

Look like. Look like. Not sound like. :)


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#29 Wolfram-Harms

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 19:59

... the 109 is several degrees the superior at altitude to every Russian fighter currently available. 

 

Are you sure? I thought the MiG-3 was a very good fighter above 4000 meter? hat do the experts say?


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"One thing I've learned is this: Never allow yourself to hate a people because of the actions of a few. Hatred and bigotry destroyed my nation, and millions died.
I would hope that most people did not hate Germans because of the Nazis, or Americans because of slaves.

Never hate, it only eats you alive. Keep an open mind and always look for the good in people. You may be surprised at what you find."      [ Erich Hartmann ]


#30 GridiroN

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 20:08

Are you sure? I thought the MiG-3 was a very good fighter above 4000 meter? hat do the experts say?

 

The MiG is complicated. 

 

It basically just loses less speed the higher it goes. It's still slower than an F4 and even more slow than a G2. 

 

On the deck, the MiG has a 1350HP boost which means it can keep up with a 109 for about as long as it's boost lasts, as long as the 109 isn't running in a straight line and is already out of gun range, so weirdly enough, I'd still say it's probably a better scenario for the MiG to be on the deck.

 

IINM, and someone who flies the MiG more expertly can correct me if I'm wrong, but the only thing the MiG can outrun just because it's at altitude is the FW190 as its supercharger gets slow at altitude. I have been outran by a MiG as a 190 before, and this is historically accurate. 190s couldn't keep up with their 109 escorts attacking bombers and such. 


Edited by GridiroN, 04 February 2018 - 20:10.

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#31 Wolfram-Harms

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 20:27

Ah, okay, thx! I am still quite "noob" and only begin to get to grips with ONE plane: the Bf 109.

To grips with the plane - not with the opponents! Tthat will be another matter in a world, where every second pilot is an experienced ace... :unsure:

 

190s couldn't keep up with their 109 escorts attacking bombers and such. 

 

Well, it should be the other way round, right? The escorts should stick to the 190 ! After all, it is not a racing competition... :rolleyes:


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"One thing I've learned is this: Never allow yourself to hate a people because of the actions of a few. Hatred and bigotry destroyed my nation, and millions died.
I would hope that most people did not hate Germans because of the Nazis, or Americans because of slaves.

Never hate, it only eats you alive. Keep an open mind and always look for the good in people. You may be surprised at what you find."      [ Erich Hartmann ]


#32 Ehret

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 20:33

New tech will be jets (ME262) and K-14 gyro gunsight for P-51.

 

The turbos in P38/P47 can be considered as such, too.


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#33 GridiroN

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 20:41

Ah, okay, thx! I am still quite "noob" and only begin to get to grips with ONE plane: the Bf 109.
To grips with the plane - not with the opponents! Tthat will be another matter in a world, where every second pilot is an experienced ace... :unsure:


You will be thrown around online like a rag-doll by even mediocre pilots. Everyone goes through this. The bright side, you will get better very quickly. There are pilots on now who'd I would have considered not at all good when I first started seeing them, who are definitely in the top skill ranks now.
 

Well, it should be the other way round, right? The escorts should stick to the 190 ! After all, it is not a racing competition... :rolleyes:


Well purposely going slow wastes fuel, and puts you in a bad position if you're intercepted, so it was a strategic issue...on a serious note that is.
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#34 RoflSeal

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 20:52

 so what new tech can we expect in BoBP

 

Stuff they definitely will develop

 

  • jet engines (Me-262)
  • turbochargers (P-38 and P-47)
  • hydraulic controls (P-38)
  • gyro gunsights (P-51D definately, possible also for P-47, Spitfire Mk IX, FW 190D-9 and Me-262)

Stuff they might develop

  • G-suits (P-51 and P-47)
  • tail warning radar (P-51)

Edited by RoflSeal, 04 February 2018 - 20:52.

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#35 Rolling_Thunder

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 20:59

What will it look like? The movies man. P-51 baby, P-51


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#36 71st_AH_Barnacles

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 21:12

Eggshell really suits ww2 planes, love the picture!

As a "skinner", I am looking forward to using the late war German colours, RLM 80 - 83, and the greensih undersides "eggshell".

 

fzygcdgxctqfnb8zg.jpg


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#37 Feathered_IV

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 21:31

Never mind the air combat. Imagine what the forums will look like, once the chart monkeys get started.
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#38 216th_LuseKofte

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 21:45

But it is still a fact, that the German pilots had to fly throughout the whole war, until they broke or fell.

 

Have you seen the chances of UK bombercrew and US bombercrew. They had less chance than the Marines in Omaha beach for survival. The rotation system was a war winning strategy. Germany did not have the human and economical resources for a 6 year war, in reality that was shown already when they started Barbarossa. Already by then the losses during BOB was very visable  And the pilots  was adicted to speed.

 

There have been a lot of research on battle fatigue, a infantryman can fight in frontline during wartime for 280 hours , about after that he will loose his mind. A battle pilot can focus in field for less than 2 hours, 4 as maximum , then try to fly 7 sorties a day for many month 

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Edited by 216th_LuseKofte, 04 February 2018 - 21:51.

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#39 Frenchy56

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 22:37

Look like. Look like. Not sound like. :)

Well, slightly faster dots, tracers, fuel trails and explosions.


Edited by Frenchy56, 04 February 2018 - 22:37.

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#40 Simba

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 22:39

fw-190d-9-dora-jpv-10.jpg

D9 protecting Me-262


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