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GarandM1

What will air combat on the western front in 1945 look like?

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Never mind the air combat. Imagine what the forums will look like, once the chart monkeys get started.

 

Coffee gone everywhere!

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Just go into dcs and try it out, it always turns out low lvl, flying in circles right above the tree tops. Dosent matter if its an E-4 or K-4 on multiplayer servers.

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Can I have some of those, please? This German winter grey is killing the very last of my energy.
Even sim flying seems straining. I'm sooooooooo tired....

 

post-289-0-40395600-1517780830.jpg

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Have you seen the chances of UK bombercrew and US bombercrew. They had less chance than the Marines in Omaha beach for survival. The rotation system was a war winning strategy. Germany did not have the human and economical resources for a 6 year war, in reality that was shown already when they started Barbarossa. Already by then the losses during BOB was very visable  And the pilots  was adicted to speed.

 

There have been a lot of research on battle fatigue, a infantryman can fight in frontline during wartime for 280 hours , about after that he will loose his mind. A battle pilot can focus in field for less than 2 hours, 4 as maximum , then try to fly 7 sorties a day for many month 

Erm....The Marines were not part of the Normandy landings....

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It will be just like in Redtails!

One can only hope that the devs extensively rely on this documentary when it comes to crafting the game. 

 

Edited by Porkins
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Hopefully the next in the great battles series will be entirely devoted to simming RedTails. "Battle of Redtails or 'How we won the war with Mustangs and Diversity'"

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One can only hope that the devs extensively rely on this documentary when it comes to crafting the game. 

 

I know right?

I was blown away by the realism.

 

Thanks George, as if I hadn't lost enough faith in you over Star Wars.

Putz.

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Hopefully the next in the great battles series will be entirely devoted to simming RedTails. "Battle of Redtails or 'How we won the war with Mustangs and Diversity'"

Borderline man. Pretty borderline.

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Depends on if it is multiplayer or single player.

 

Single player will have a much more historic balance of machines.

 

Multiplayer will have numbers of Luftwaffe planes all out of proportion with what was encountered by the Allies at the end stage of the war in Europe.  With the exception of the one day of Operation Bodenplatte, the Luftwaffe was essentially a non existent threat to the Allies.  They had lots of new aeroplanes, but no fuel and few pilots for them.  Which I admit from our perspective will be quite boring indeed if modeled historically.

 

This is why I don't really like late war scenarios.   If properly done, on a server with say 40 players, you should have maybe 10 guys in 109s, up against 30 Allied pilots in a mix of aircraft types that will not only hold control of the sky, but effectively suppress his ability to operate in the open on his own airfields.

 

What multiplayer will be is what we have now, good players doing well regardless of which side they fly for.

Well that assumes you want a WWII reenactment.   No thanks we know who won.  If done properly in MP you would have all the planes but restrictions on the number of types or it will just turn into 262s vs Tempest D-30s and other hot rod planes.  Again if done right restrict some of those crazy planes.  

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I'm more interested in seeing how the West will stack up going head to head with the East, when we get our fill of western front play.  Now that will be interesting.

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Basically armaments will have increased in power considerably. Engine power will have increased to allow this, along with higher speeds. But wing area won't have increased.

 

So the result is that weapons can be used at longer ranges, and complex turning fights are less aerobatic (and less likely). This is why I generally prefer pre-1943 theatres - less cannons mean long fights and lower wing loadings mean more elaborate fighting geometries as pilots jockey for position.

 

When I was a kid I loved the idea of cannon armaments and speed records... but I've kind-of grown out of that. This game-play preference is why I'd jump at the Spanish Civil War, or Sicily (even using mainly existing aircraft), or even an early Pacific theatre sim - but will likely get BooBP when it comes on sale instead of pre-ordering.

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Look like. Look like. Not sound like. :)

Oh. uh. yeah. sorry about that...

 

 

A glint of sunlight as clouds are pierced

Might be danger in those distant skies?

 

Mighty engine shakes and shudders

skyward, on shiny silver wings.

 

No birds nor bugs on these rare heights

but jerry and he has me in his sights!

 

With the head on a swivel,

no more time for this drivel,

 

Fight's on!

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If you have a P40 and want a taste of this now - fly a quick mission with "unbreakable" on. Then set RPM and throttle to 100% and watch... You should get something close, maybe even faster, to P51D in speed and the same armament.

 

Weapons... 6x 50 cals, or 2x 20mm, have enough firepower to quickly dispatch other fighters, already.

 

IMHO main difference will be in available energy levels, and G loads. Combat might be high in a velocity, but not in tempo - something like we have now, but stretched twice in space.

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Well that assumes you want a WWII reenactment.   No thanks we know who won.  If done properly in MP you would have all the planes but restrictions on the number of types or it will just turn into 262s vs Tempest D-30s and other hot rod planes.  Again if done right restrict some of those crazy planes.  

 

I don't disagree with you here.  However, we both know that the "crazy planes" are the sole reason a large number of people will purchase this expansion.  Left unchecked by server set up, the Spit Mk. IX, P38L, 190A8, and G14 will be the rarely flown bottom feeder aircraft in this expansion.

 

I fully expect to see the sky full of 262s, D9s, and a few K4s, vs. a few Allied pilots in P51s and P47s struggling to survive in lopsided online match ups, just like what we see now.

 

I'll be down low, specializing in fast, same day delivery of high explosive, specially gift wrapped, packages to the enemy airfields, no matter which side I fly for...

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I'll be down low, specializing in fast, same day delivery of high explosive, specially gift wrapped, packages to the enemy airfields, no matter which side I fly for...

This ^

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Borderline man. Pretty borderline.

 

You are right. I meant no slight to the actual brave pilots, or even the P-51. Just a slight slight to Hollywood.

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I don't disagree with you here.  However, we both know that the "crazy planes" are the sole reason a large number of people will purchase this expansion.  Left unchecked by server set up, the Spit Mk. IX, P38L, 190A8, and G14 will be the rarely flown bottom feeder aircraft in this expansion.

 

I fully expect to see the sky full of 262s, D9s, and a few K4s, vs. a few Allied pilots in P51s and P47s struggling to survive in lopsided online match ups, just like what we see now.

 

I'll be down low, specializing in fast, same day delivery of high explosive, specially gift wrapped, packages to the enemy airfields, no matter which side I fly for...

You really see lopsided matches?  I have seen numbers but not plane set issues.  42 43 should be a really good match up.  45 nobody is going to fly against multiple 262s for very long. Like I said if they can limit some of the numbers it should go a long way.  Spits vs 109s comes to mind

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Well that assumes you want a WWII reenactment. No thanks we know who won.

I’m not into e-sports. I do want to simulate WW2 and authentic unit operations.

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I don't disagree with you here. However, we both know that the "crazy planes" are the sole reason a large number of people will purchase this expansion. Left unchecked by server set up, the Spit Mk. IX, P38L, 190A8, and G14 will be the rarely flown bottom feeder aircraft in this expansion.

 

I fully expect to see the sky full of 262s, D9s, and a few K4s, vs. a few Allied pilots in P51s and P47s struggling to survive in lopsided online match ups, just like what we see now.

 

Almost exactly how I think it will go. But I think that G14 and K4 will be the most prominent.

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If at least some people are going to be ground pounding, then at least some people will come down from their perch to stop them, then a few more to stop them, and so on until even the most dedicated astronauts are cruising quite low just to have targets.

 

And in game the fight usually degenerates to low altitude turning eventually. So I don't see why you think the Spitfire will be a bottom feeder. As I said I expect that's the one that will be spammed until the axis are sick of the thing.

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Left unchecked by server set up, the Spit Mk. IX, P38L, 190A8, and G14 will be the rarely flown bottom feeder aircraft in this expansion.

I fully expect to see the sky full of 262s, D9s, and a few K4s...

 

Any server that is getting set up for a halfways realistic scenario, should definitely limtit the numbers of the more rare aircraft

like the Arado and Messerschmitt jet planes, or even the Focke Wulf D-9, the Bf 109 G-14 and K-4.

Or we would get nothing but an "aerial playground" without any closeness to how it really was.

 

I'd hope that servers like TACTICAL AIR WAR or COCONUT EXPERT will balance it halfways historically correct.

Edited by Wolfram-Harms

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I’m not into e-sports. I do want to simulate WW2 and authentic unit operations.

 

Agreed. It is good to see that at least some of us here finds the recreation of historical scenarios far more thrilling and interesting than the usual take off, meet mid-map, dogfight, rinse and repeat routine. 

 

As for the late war 'über' fighter planeset, few seems to realize that by this time of the war, ironically both sides mostly used their highest ever performance piston engined fighters for mundane task like strafing and fighter bomber sorties. Albeit for different reasons. 

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Agreed. It is good to see that at least some of us here finds the recreation of historical scenarios far more thrilling and interesting than the usual take off, meet mid-map, dogfight, rinse and repeat routine. 

 

My sentiments exactly... with the old IL2 I was always online, flying in either the large 'online wars' or co-op.

At least there you had one life, that's it. If you were unlucky to crash on take off you were out, simple as... it made pilots much more careful and attentive with their virtual lives.

It also made the missions mean more... not only for managing to complete objectives, but to make it back in one piece with most of your chums. 

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I’m not into e-sports. I do want to simulate WW2 and authentic unit operations.

Yep. If someone is into sports,do the real one. E-sport is the most lame kind of sport and by no means proof of ones manliness :D
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I’m not into e-sports. I do want to simulate WW2 and authentic unit operations.

 

Me too. Nothing like a dead-is-dead career stretching over several weeks of play to ramp up the tension. You actually get to be quite glad that the last mission had no enemy contact!

 

Not everything is about about "who won".   

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Yep. If someone is into sports,do the real one. E-sport is the most lame kind of sport and by no means proof of ones manliness :D

How many times have we seen someone post that real pilots/men fly online? I find that laughable in the extreme. With the right folks online is great. It's a miserable experience with the opposite.

Edited by Rjel
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I don't think that is accurate, at least as far as the U.S. pilots were concerned. More than a few pilots flew multiple tours, fighters and bombers. They rotated out as often as not due to moving to higher positions of command, leave and to go back home to share their combat experience with pilots in training. Too many times comments like yours make it sound like Allied pilots had it made. Made except for flying their missions hundreds of miles from home base, over enemy territory with little chance of escape if they went down. They deserve a lot more respect than the little chestnut, "they just went home when they were done with their tour".

 

 

The core won`t change - a strategic operation broken down into tactical operations performed by players.

 

Aircraft - much heavier and faster, less maneuverable, powerful weapons.

 

What I`m looking forward to is the change of landscape. The green fields of Netherlands, the countryside, roads etc.

 

If we got some upgrrades in tank warfare, it could be much different from EF. Given the right map, we could simulate some of the heavy bettles near Caen.

 

I am in accord with most of what is written here, but all confound strategic situation and tactical situations, in the point of view of the strategical situation the allies did smash the Germans in detail and the Luftwaffe was defeated on all western fronts but on a tactical point of view we may see some very interesting battles when the Luftwaffe could muster some planes, munitions and fuel to mount some resistance and so provide some interesting missions. And like I said the RAF and the future USAAF had both two principal missions that you do not find back in/on the east front. one Strategic to destroy the morale of the population and the industrial power of the Germans and the second the tactical mission to destroy the front troop or the near front transports or second echelons support troops of the enemy. And the last, tactical, missions are not very different from the ones on the east front. 

The UK or US had some pilots that did do more than one "tour" of operation but many did so in other theater of war an example is Pierre Closterman, other could not because they were shot down above enemy territory and could not fly again over enemy territory until a very late time in the war. Russia did send "old" veteran pilots to train new pilots like the USA and the UK did do also. Germans did plan it very badly and lost many of his best but not only because of this but also because the "experts" in the Luftwaffe where given the best plane or weapons or never did favor the training of new pilot so that they could survive. It is the “expertent” fault that the Luftwaffe lost so many pilot without experience. And that during all the war not only at the end. :salute: 

Edited by senseispcc

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Air combat in Il-2 will be affected not only by new aircraft, but also by changes to the game engine itself. 

 

For example, the increased terrain rendering distance announced in October will make high-altidue combat more attractive. It will no longer be disconcerting due to the absence of a horizon. 

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Air combat in Il-2 will be affected not only by new aircraft, but also by changes to the game engine itself.

 

For example, the increased terrain rendering distance announced in October will make high-altidue combat more attractive. It will no longer be disconcerting due to the absence of a horizon.

Oh yes, I am waiting for that. The current bubble is really annoying. That change will definitely make B&Z aircraft way more useful and comfortable.

 

But I have to mention that we will see a little change of pace, as no longer will German planes be able to easily dive away. Currently only La5 and Yak1b can follow 109s in a dive but they ultimately unable to catch them with enough separation.

 

With addition of P-51D, Tempest, P-38L and P-47 we will see that standard German planes like 109G14 and Fw190A will be unable to run away from most allied airplanes.

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With addition of P-51D, Tempest, P-38L and P-47 we will see that standard German planes like 109G14 and Fw190A will be unable to run away from most allied airplanes.

No, but they'll out-turns them instead, and they'll still out-climb them. So the situation will be reversed with the allies, particularly US, being the ones who have to play very cautious BnZ like the Germans have to now against the VVS.

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No, but they'll out-turns them instead, and they'll still out-climb them. So the situation will be reversed with the allies, particularly US, being the ones who have to play very cautious BnZ like the Germans have to now against the VVS.

I think you will be surprised by P38, 51 and Tempest. They aren't amazing at turn fighting, but good enough to make 109s feel uneasy and 190 will have no edge there.

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I think you will be surprised by P38, 51 and Tempest. They aren't amazing at turn fighting, but good enough to make 109s feel uneasy and 190 will have no edge there.

Yes, I meant mainly the 109s. I don't see the A-8 having any competitive edge at all in that matchup. And sure, but in the same way the F-4 can make a Yak feel uneasy in a turnfight. Doesn't make it a good idea. But then the allies have the Mk.IX so all bases covered anyway.

Edited by VC_

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Bf-109K4s and if they are all selected, Bf-109G14s. Nevermind the Me-262, lol. Then the few lucky allied pilots that get the 0/4 Tempest slots. The rest will be fully armed P-47s hell bent on flying them as ground attackers.

Luftwaffe pilots when they realize allied planes are modeled to 1943 power settings. 
cXmLtgo.gif

Who knows? We may see P-47s pulling 2800HP turning inside Bf-109s.  :cool:

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Yes, I meant mainly the 109s. I don't see the A-8 having any competitive edge at all in that matchup. And sure, but in the same way the F-4 can make a Yak feel uneasy in a turnfight. Doesn't make it a good idea. But then the allies have the Mk.IX so all bases covered anyway.

I think the 180A-8 and the P-47D will be a pretty good matchup. They are both heavy brutes with lots of guns, and the flying profile is quite similar. Poor climbers, mediocre at best turners, but with good high speed control.

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I’m not into e-sports. I do want to simulate WW2 and authentic unit operations.

I have no issue with setting up real battle scenarios from WWII but flying against 7 to 1 numbers isn't my idea of fun.   I remember certain 1946 Mod servers cherry picking scenarios and time frames which influenced the plane sets to favor a particular side.  In some cases we were flying 43 birds against late war 44.  That's not fun IMO. 

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Bf-109K4s and if they are all selected, Bf-109G14s. Nevermind the Me-262, lol. Then the few lucky allied pilots that get the 0/4 Tempest slots. The rest will be fully armed P-47s hell bent on flying them as ground attackers.

 

Luftwaffe pilots when they realize allied planes are modeled to 1943 power settings.

cXmLtgo.gif

 

 

That's what I am afraid of too.

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Honestly, I cannot wait to meet up in K4 or G14 against Allied planes. I am huge fan of 109s and 190s and I am up to any challenge. It will be fun with skill level which is in IL2:BoX

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