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Of course I understand that I am not a complete idiot! The point is that WW2 airmen DO have a way to alert you, so I am curious to see how BoS will eventually handle that.

Well, for one thing, the all seeing friendly Sauron Ai should make you alert long before you notice anything. :biggrin:

If for anything, I'd welcome Ai in my flight solely for that.

 

Judging by the things so far it'd probably be suffice to drop flight of my mud-movers in alt for some 1-2k meters and go stealth, bird of prey mode. :ph34r:

 

Well at least for humans.

 

But what if they bring their Ai (tracker hounds)?

...

Argh, I knew I overlooked something, it sounded too good to be true anyway. :scare:

Edited by dkoor

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I'm an active ROF player. Spotting in BOS at the moment is much harder than in ROF. There must something be wrong or different to ROF since the last update. Before the last update it was much better in BOS.

You are right.

I can't say that I'm super experienced or something in RoF but surely I spot 'em harder than in RoF.

Edited by dkoor

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Fingers crossed is all i can say now...highly hoping 777 and devs are reading those lines, and could find a spotting distance compromise.

 

It's the #1 issue for me in BOS actually.

And i can't imagine myself flying BOS with labels on, nope.

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Cannot there be a simple system to kind of bring up the contrast of an aircraft to the background?

Have this barely visible halo-like thing around the aircraft instead of a dot. It'd be kind of 'spreading' the colour of the aircraft like a fresh ink spot would spread on a wet paper.

IMO it wouldn't take my mind away from 'simulation', because nothing extra would be there, I would simply notice the contrast sooner and easier.

 

No idea how well it would work in practice, though. Just a thought.

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Cannot there be a simple system to kind of bring up the contrast of an aircraft to the background?

Have this barely visible halo-like thing around the aircraft instead of a dot. It'd be kind of 'spreading' the colour of the aircraft like a fresh ink spot would spread on a wet paper.

IMO it wouldn't take my mind away from 'simulation', because nothing extra would be there, I would simply notice the contrast sooner and easier.

 

No idea how well it would work in practice, though. Just a thought.

 

because everyone uses different resolutions and monitor sizes....thats the problem

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Pity me, a fellow past 50 and near sighted.  I can't see anything in the first pic and just a bit in the second.

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Just to add my thoughts. I've got perfect vision in real life, a nice monitor running at 1920x1080, and unless my FOV is zoomed in I also have trouble spotting planes at a distance. I had this problem in ROF, too, and was hoping it would be corrected in this sim. It's still early, but I'd like to see if maybe there's a build of the game with the view distances of planes increased.

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  I can't see anything in the first pic and just a bit in the second.

 

 

 

Yeah me too...but probably Meow get bio-ionics eyes...

Unless somebody tell me ennemy is right there even in second pict, i can't see a damn thing.

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Well, second picture shows that the game does render something at 5km. I agree it would be nice if those two pixels could be more visible at default zoom.

(You should be able to clearly see two pixels in the middle of the second pic. First pic, I see nothing)

Edited by Calvamos

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If at least those 2 pixels were really black...but 2 poor fading pixels among my 2560X1440 pixels screen  :rolleyes:

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because everyone uses different resolutions and monitor sizes....thats the problem

 

That's a great point. 

 

But there is worse... I don't know if you ever tried a night mission: during a SEOW campaign the players had to be guided by Radar to the bombers over Germany and take them out using BF110 and Ju88. Some guys could see them clearly while other could not even land because of their screen.

 

I could only see them in contrast with the dim of the sun so I had to fly at their side, some could see them at their 12 while others landed since there was no way to see anything (somebody actually collided chasing the same bomber).

 

Screen quality is important if you have to hunt for pixels.

 

I repeat myself: with the increasing of the screen resolution and more powerful GPU (>>> really high AA) rendering the contacts as pixels is not more enough. It was good 10 year ago.

Edited by 6S.Manu

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Actually, screen resolution or size would be irrelevant to what I described. It would actually get rid of the disadvantage of a low resolution IMHO (on some level).

 

For example, if there was an enemy in the sky barely visible as a single pixel, with my thought, the sky would be slightly dimmed around the aircraft, just a little bit. "Like a fresh ink spot would spread on wet paper", that spot being the aircraft. So instead of being a single black pixel that you most likely wouldn't notice (or wouldnt be able to see with low resolution), it would be a small blotch slightly darker than its surrounding sky, visible even on low resolutions.

 

11systg.jpg     2euu9mg.jpg

 

But again, no idea how well it would work in practice.

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I'm an active ROF player. Spotting in BOS at the moment is much harder than in ROF. There must something be wrong or different to ROF since the last update. Before the last update it was much better in BOS.

 

 

I totally agree that the spotting mechanic in ROF is vastly superior to the current BOS release. I prefer not to have tags on when I play, but then spotting AC becomes impossible at anything other than close range. It's also why I don't try to play CloD anymore...the disappearing dot at midrange issue was horrible. ROF seems to handle the issue extremely well...I actually enjoy being able to distinguish AC types by mk1 eyeball at range. 

 

I'm waiting for attention to be focused back in this area. I understand we are early in the alpha state, but having sight issues keeps my log in time to next to zero.

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Cannot there be a simple system to kind of bring up the contrast of an aircraft to the background?

Have this barely visible halo-like thing around the aircraft instead of a dot. It'd be kind of 'spreading' the colour of the aircraft like a fresh ink spot would spread on a wet paper.

IMO it wouldn't take my mind away from 'simulation', because nothing extra would be there, I would simply notice the contrast sooner and easier.

 

No idea how well it would work in practice, though. Just a thought.

 

IMO, if this was fixed most complaints would likely disappear. Make all of the pixels associated with the LOD of the aircraft fully opaque. Currently lots of the pixels have high levels of transparency or aliasing or something which makes them fade into the background. In some cases none of the pixels reach a opacity that is actually visible without using Photoshop to digitally zoom in and see them.

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IMO, if this was fixed most complaints would likely disappear. Make all of the pixels associated with the LOD of the aircraft fully opaque.

 

I spent most of last weekend doing ground targeting, will have to do some more dogfighting this weekend and check it out... I agree though, would make a lot of people happy.

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An aircraft with white camouflage against white background at long distance is a white pixel against white pixels contrast and very hard to spot, same as a light blue against the sky is hard to see. Imho the main problem is that the human eye is really sensible to movement, which isn't present on a computer screen. We've got all sorts of vibrating stuff that disturbs our vision, and in addition the single aircraft pixel (pretty much proper size for a frontal view from about 3km away) doesn't really move against its background and remains near invisible. Which means the natural spotting mechanisms don't work.
If we were playing 10800x19200 on 120" monitors, realistic spotting would probably be possible. But since we're not, some unrealistic mechanisms will have to be used to simulate real life visibility.

For reference, using wide screen view I'd need to be about 15 cm from my screen to perceive things in about their real size. At that distance, I have absolutely no problem counting the pixels on my screen, I can see a single pixel from about a meter away. So for my natural eye resolution and normal viewing distance of about 45 cm I'd need a screen three times as wide and three times as high each with more than twice the full HD resolution I'm using.

Edited by JtD
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An aircraft with white camouflage against white background at long distance is a white pixel against white pixels contrast and very hard to spot, same as a light blue against the sky is hard to see. Imho the main problem is that the human eye is really sensible to movement, which isn't present on a computer screen. We've got all sorts of vibrating stuff that disturbs our vision, and in addition the single aircraft pixel (pretty much proper size for a frontal view from about 3km away) doesn't really move against its background and remains near invisible. Which means the natural spotting mechanisms don't work.

If we were playing 10800x19200 on 120" monitors, realistic spotting would probably be possible. But since we're not, some unrealistic mechanisms will have to be used to simulate real life visibility.

 

:salute:

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Not strictly on topic, but once you are within 3km, I think this game makes it much, much easier/better to spot aircraft over a forest or cityscape, compared to the other IL2 games. (Fully patched/modded.)

Edited by Calvamos

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With the latest update of 61Mb, plane is slightly more easier to spot!

Couldn't see it at 2Km and further (even though it was there) before update, and now i can see it at 2Km!

Or is it due to my balanced settings with 0.9 gamma adjusted?...

Still way not enough, but slightly better  :)

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An aircraft with white camouflage against white background at long distance is a white pixel against white pixels contrast and very hard to spot, same as a light blue against the sky is hard to see. Imho the main problem is that the human eye is really sensible to movement, which isn't present on a computer screen. We've got all sorts of vibrating stuff that disturbs our vision, and in addition the single aircraft pixel (pretty much proper size for a frontal view from about 3km away) doesn't really move against its background and remains near invisible. Which means the natural spotting mechanisms don't work.

If we were playing 10800x19200 on 120" monitors, realistic spotting would probably be possible. But since we're not, some unrealistic mechanisms will have to be used to simulate real life visibility.

 

For reference, using wide screen view I'd need to be about 15 cm from my screen to perceive things in about their real size. At that distance, I have absolutely no problem counting the pixels on my screen, I can see a single pixel from about a meter away. So for my natural eye resolution and normal viewing distance of about 45 cm I'd need a screen three times as wide and three times as high each with more than twice the full HD resolution I'm using.

Exactly so!  Which means that having some sort of "artificial " spotting aid is not arcadey.  I'm not a fan of icons, especially the ones in RoF which you can see through the planes. I think larger than "real" dots at distance is a reasonable compromise.  After all, how many of us could look at a depiction of an aircraft against the sky, and say how far away it is?  If the blob is a bit bigger than "real life" at, say 5km, is that really such an immersion killer?

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Exactly so!  Which means that having some sort of "artificial " spotting aid is not arcadey.  I'm not a fan of icons, especially the ones in RoF which you can see through the planes. I think larger than "real" dots at distance is a reasonable compromise.  After all, how many of us could look at a depiction of an aircraft against the sky, and say how far away it is?  If the blob is a bit bigger than "real life" at, say 5km, is that really such an immersion killer?

Only if you are defending the undefendable, imo.  :D :D :D

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So instantly spotting an aircraft from 5 to 8K out. All aircraft should be instantly spottable, no concentration required. Everything spotted with ease, so we should have smart scaling because icons are somehow less realistic than that.

 

And then all of those accounts of bouncing aircraft and being shot from aircraft they didn't see were just figments of the imagination.

 

I'm sorry guys, I just did a test - and while it's difficult - the dots are there out to at least 5K (that's where the aircraft spawn currently). They may not instantly pop out, but then neither do real aircraft - and then we should make all aircraft dark dots so that they can be easily seen because it would otherwise take away from some aircraft's strengths? Unless that aircraft's strengths was being Kitt from Knight Rider and calling out contacts to the pilot, it doesn't do that.

 

I circled the dots at 5K in the screenshots. There's also a zoomed in shot. Hard to see in a still, yes. When I saw it flying I didn't lose it - but just having contacts pop out, nah - use icons then. Icons are no less real than dots that pin point aircraft or the smart scaling.

 

attachicon.gif5KM dot.jpg

attachicon.gif5KM dot zoomed in on.jpg

 

I only saw two faint pixels in the zoomed image, nothing in the unzoomed pic. This is completely unrealistic for a 5km distance!

Edited by sturmkraehe

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(...)

If we were playing 10800x19200 on 120" monitors, realistic spotting would probably be possible. But since we're not, some unrealistic mechanisms will have to be used to simulate real life visibility.

 

I think this might even not work because theres more than resolution that allows the eye to see better:

 

It's stereoscopic view (less important at far distance however) and depth of vision (which is imho more important also at large distances) combined to periferal vision.

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Welcome to reality gents!

 

What I have seen so far I can only describe as AWESOME! The improvements in what those of us in RL combat aviation called "atmospherics" that you see in ROF and BOS compared to any of the older sims is a remarkable step - no LEAP - in the right direction! Personally, I applaud the developers on their efforts. Keep going!

 

As an example I often fought Navy and Marine F-18s in training. We never bothered to look outside until we hit 10 miles. Mind you, this was usually between 20,000" and 30,000' where there is FAR less moisture present to make things harder to see. At combat altitudes in WWII, there is far more moisture that lowers visibility - even on a "clear" day - than at our training altitudes. With my vision then (since gone to hell...) I could reliably spot Mr. Hornet at about 10 miles if i had the benefit of the "TD" box in the hud that drew a square around him. A Bf-109 is roughly half the size of a Hornet so that range would be about 8 KM if you know exactly where to look. Without the TD Box, F-18 spotting occurs around 6-8 miles... if you are lucky or at 4-5 KM if we convert to the 109. Remember, this is the optimal! Your results will differ...

 

Backing up what others have stated, I can often not see an oncoming airliner just a thousand feet above or below me until he is well inside 10 miles. 3-4 miles is not unusual with the right combination of sun angle, moisture, paint scheme and aspect.

 

Down lower, it is going to be worse. If you are lucky, he hasn't seen you yet and is not nose-on. A glint from a canopy or a wing surface as he maneuvers pushes spotting further out and may save your life. There are several other factors you may be able to influence that have an effect on spotting distances. Sun angle is critical. Where he is relative to the sun and where you are relative to his sun makes a huge difference. Even a white aircraft can appear dark with the right lighting. Snow glare was a factor in the real BOS and should be in the game as well. Figure out how to use this to advantage!

 

Aspect and numbers matter HUGELY. Two planes are four times easier to spot than one. The closer together they are, the easier. A small group of 6 or 8 is even easier to spot. The difference of the target against the background grows in your perception as their numbers grow. This is why our modern tactical formations emphasize putting space between you and your wingman.

 

Don't forget, this is a two way street. Other humans will have the same problems as you. Yes, different res and zoom may have an effect and I will do my best to use them to advantage. I just hope the developers realistically "cuff" the AI to be no more able to spot than we.

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Have to say that I also feel that spotting distance is too short. Maybe things get better when I get back home and can use my desktop, but now with laptop, there is no way I can spot enemy ac over 2km away. I have been testing it now, using orange first and then turning it off when I know where to look at.

 

 

if you are lucky or at 4-5 KM if we convert to the 109. Remember, this is the optimal!

 

I would be really happy if there was any chance to spot LaGG or 109 from that distance. But looking at screenshots FuriousMeow posted, it's not gona happen. In unzoomed picture I can see absolutely nothing. In zoomed, yes there seems to be something in there. I think those pictures are the best proof that it needs to be tweaked a bit.

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After what Conan wrote, I am willing to accept things as is. Sure, it is hard to spot planes in BOS, but if that is the way it is in reality, I am happy with things staying the way they are.  :salute: MJ

Edited by =69.GIAP=MIKHA

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I don't think we can even spot planes at the lowest distances you're giving, and that's not even taking into account the whole monitor vs eyes thing. The technical draw distance is meaningless, as 2 grey pixels against a blue/grey sky are nearly completely invisible to 95% here.

 

There's no way that what we currently have is acceptable.

Edited by iLOVEwindmills
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I don't think we can even spot planes at the lowest distances you're giving, and that's not even taking into account the whole monitor vs eyes thing. The technical draw distance is meaningless, as 2 grey pixels against a blue/grey sky are nearly completely invisible to 95% here.

 

There's no way that what we currently have is acceptable.

 

Exactly. Rendering distance is only one aspect of the issue.

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After what Conan wrote, I am willing to accept things as is. Sure, it is hard to spot planes in BOS, but if that is the way it is in reality, I am happy with things staying the way they are.  :salute: MJ

 

He is talking of 4/5 up to 8 Km for a 109...

Currently in BOS, further than 2 Km i can't see nothing :rolleyes: ...in a cristal clear weather. What will it be in a cloudy weather??

Only soluce for me is to fly while juggling with the H key, on and off depending the distance. 

I'm not going to like that for long believe me. But still patiently waiting for an improvment each update....

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If things don't get a lot better then the combat will have no strategic depth whatsoever.

 

When it's just semi-blind people flying around until they bump into each other at stabbing distance, there's not much chance for anything else to develop but a turnfight. When you can see your enemies at longer distance, you have time climb, gain energy, move towards better positions (clouds, friendlies, own AA etc). None of this will happen when you don't have a reasonable chance of seeing your opponent before you're practically on top of each other.

 

This is not even about realism imo, multiplayer would be absolutely horrid with the current spotting mechanics.

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If things don't get a lot better then the combat will have no strategic depth whatsoever.

 

When it's just semi-blind people flying around until they bump into each other at stabbing distance, there's not much chance for anything else to develop but a turnfight. When you can see your enemies at longer distance, you have time climb, gain energy, move towards better positions (clouds, friendlies, own AA etc). None of this will happen when you don't have a reasonable chance of seeing your opponent before you're practically on top of each other.

 

This is not even about realism imo, multiplayer would be absolutely horrid with the current spotting mechanics.

 

Of course, fully agreed  :)

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And people will soon vote with there feet in multiplayer servers, and do something else imo.

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S!

 

 Devs need to find a balance in Playability vs Realism. We can not take realistic values straight to a game as it simply won't work due the limitations the monitors have compared to what we really see and can see. Maybe one of the toughest aspects to model in a sim are the dots and how they are displayed and at what range. Shall see how this develops.

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Welcome to reality gents!

 

What I have seen so far I can only describe as AWESOME! The improvements in what those of us in RL combat aviation called "atmospherics" that you see in ROF and BOS compared to any of the older sims is a remarkable step - no LEAP - in the right direction! Personally, I applaud the developers on their efforts. Keep going!

 

As an example I often fought Navy and Marine F-18s in training. We never bothered to look outside until we hit 10 miles. Mind you, this was usually between 20,000" and 30,000' where there is FAR less moisture present to make things harder to see. At combat altitudes in WWII, there is far more moisture that lowers visibility - even on a "clear" day - than at our training altitudes. With my vision then (since gone to hell...) I could reliably spot Mr. Hornet at about 10 miles if i had the benefit of the "TD" box in the hud that drew a square around him. A Bf-109 is roughly half the size of a Hornet so that range would be about 8 KM if you know exactly where to look. Without the TD Box, F-18 spotting occurs around 6-8 miles... if you are lucky or at 4-5 KM if we convert to the 109. Remember, this is the optimal! Your results will differ...

 

Backing up what others have stated, I can often not see an oncoming airliner just a thousand feet above or below me until he is well inside 10 miles. 3-4 miles is not unusual with the right combination of sun angle, moisture, paint scheme and aspect.

 

Down lower, it is going to be worse. If you are lucky, he hasn't seen you yet and is not nose-on. A glint from a canopy or a wing surface as he maneuvers pushes spotting further out and may save your life. There are several other factors you may be able to influence that have an effect on spotting distances. Sun angle is critical. Where he is relative to the sun and where you are relative to his sun makes a huge difference. Even a white aircraft can appear dark with the right lighting. Snow glare was a factor in the real BOS and should be in the game as well. Figure out how to use this to advantage!

 

Aspect and numbers matter HUGELY. Two planes are four times easier to spot than one. The closer together they are, the easier. A small group of 6 or 8 is even easier to spot. The difference of the target against the background grows in your perception as their numbers grow. This is why our modern tactical formations emphasize putting space between you and your wingman.

 

Don't forget, this is a two way street. Other humans will have the same problems as you. Yes, different res and zoom may have an effect and I will do my best to use them to advantage. I just hope the developers realistically "cuff" the AI to be no more able to spot than we.

 

This is interesting what you write. And I agree completely that the sim should get as close as possible to the spotting possibilities as in real life.

 

I don't know if you've played BoS (I guess not as you don't have a founder tag) but some information that might help you to compare the experience (mine in this case) in playing the game and your experience from real life:

 

- I can see a dot at a distance below 2 km, perhaps at 2.5 km when using zoom.

- I don't see anything beyond this range (I use icons to measure distances).

- The icons appear at about 6.5 km.

- I don't dare to switch off icons (which I hate) because sighting distance of 2 km is too critical - particularly when in a slow Lagg3

- I don't know if we have different weather conditions right now or if it is always the same but the spotting distance is always the same.

- The spotting problem discussed here might be linked to the resolution used by the player. In theory the planes are drawn much farther away as far as I understand the statements by the developpers.

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