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After mixed results mainly flying the 109 for the month or so I've had this game, and getting a bit frustrated, I took the Yak-1 out today. I've flown it once or twice before, seemed pleasant. Today I got 5 kills in 2 sorties, 6 if you count the guy that rammed me to end my second one and 7 if I get cheeky and count a "manoeuvre kill" where I never hit him but he hit a tree trying to yo-yo after a long scissors. I don't consider myself a great pilot but that just felt too easy. In the 109 I work my a*** off and I'm lucky if I get one before I go down, and I almost never live long enough to RTB. Yak, chilled, not even trying that hard, 3 kills first sortie undamaged RTB, 2 second sortie total 5 for 1. I genuinely felt dirty flying this plane...

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Sounds like you were too aggressive in the 109, risking it all at first encounter?

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Sounds like you were too aggressive in the 109, risking it all at first encounter?

 

Oh absolutely, no doubt about that. Yesterday (as a comparison point) I made a very conscious effort to fly safe in the 109. I flew 3 sorties over 2 hours and only lost one plane (yay!) ... but I got 0 kills as well despite engaging a dozen targets in that time. It was even more depressing than getting shot down constantly.

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Well, pretty much all BoS Aircraft on the Russian Side have horrendously undermodelled Elevator Stiffening. Dive Pull Outs ingame can be accomplished fully within less than half the Altitude required in Real Life Testing. 

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Well, pretty much all BoS Aircraft on the Russian Side have horrendously undermodelled Elevator Stiffening. Dive Pull Outs ingame can be accomplished fully within less than half the Altitude required in Real Life Testing.

Will someone please tell my MiG-3 about this? It seems to have missed that bulletin.

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If you cant dominate the opponent with the 109 and you are doing better with the yak, then I'm afraid you are not using the 109s full potential or just using it wrong. Maybe your style is more turn N burn rather BnZ?

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Well, pretty much all BoS Aircraft on the Russian Side have horrendously undermodelled Elevator Stiffening. Dive Pull Outs ingame can be accomplished fully within less than half the Altitude required in Real Life Testing.

Try the MiG.

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Maybe your style is more turn N burn rather BnZ?

 

From my experience in WT I would pretty much say the opposite, although I do like to mix it up sometimes I enjoy fighting in the vertical and have (I think) some grasp of E-management and high speed slashing attacks. My problem with BnZ in the 109 is that I can't hit anything with the control stiffening. Your reward for, as I said, working your a*** off to "dominate" someone with your E-advantage is for them to flick their stick at just the right time to make you miss and you're back to square one. And as I found out in my Yak game, it's utterly trivial to dodge a 109 attack compared to how hard it is to set up and make it work from the 109s PoV.

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There are other ways to fight in a 109 that don't include high speed, high altitude diving attacks. You can, for example, use the 109's fantastic low speed maneuverability to your advantage, though that does come with associated risks. Alternatively you can use the 109's really quite good power to weight ratio to engage in a vertically rolling dogfight, the G series 109's are particularly good in this role. You can try a horizontal fight in the 109 but that is a crap shoot at the best of times but the leading edge slats make the 109 a real contender in these fights. You have options in the 109's beyond climb way up high, dive on the target and run away.

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If i could get a wish come true i would want to ask the devs ... please tell me you r sure abt the 109 fm. Just nicely ask that.

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Fly more with you horisontal stabilzer trim and bind it to an axis. takes a while to get used to but works very well in high speed dives,

you have to time it abit though, as it can take a second or two to adjust it from lets say -70% to -30%. but you can pull up very hard doing it this way.

 

Just the way i do it anyway. 

 

A pilot expect his plane to perform, a 109 expect it's pilot to perform.  :)

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After mixed results mainly flying the 109 for the month or so I've had this game, and getting a bit frustrated, I took the Yak-1 out today. I've flown it once or twice before, seemed pleasant. Today I got 5 kills in 2 sorties, 6 if you count the guy that rammed me to end my second one and 7 if I get cheeky and count a "manoeuvre kill" where I never hit him but he hit a tree trying to yo-yo after a long scissors. I don't consider myself a great pilot but that just felt too easy. In the 109 I work my a*** off and I'm lucky if I get one before I go down, and I almost never live long enough to RTB. Yak, chilled, not even trying that hard, 3 kills first sortie undamaged RTB, 2 second sortie total 5 for 1. I genuinely felt dirty flying this plane...

An unexperienced pilot will do better in the yak 1 because you dont need as much experience to exploit its strengths.

The 109 however has much greater potential than the yak but is way harder to master.

There is nothing dirty about the yak being easier to fly.

 

 

I enjoy fighting in the vertical and have (I think) some grasp of E-management and high speed slashing attacks.

 

High speed slashing attacks is exactly how you should not fly the 109.

You want to convert all you Ekin to Epot in the 109 while never raising your Ekin too high, because that means lock up.

The skill you have to acquire to master the 109 is to keep your energy JUST high enough that your enemy cant touch you and never to raise the Ekin of your plane above a certain threshold so your enemy cant evade your attacks without wasting all his E.

Edited by =ARTOA=Bombenleger
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Some people just don't jive with certain aircrafts. I have 1000+hrs in the BF109, and I am terrible with it. I'm lucky if I get 1 kill in 2hr30min game. I've gotten 3-5kills in 20min in a Yak1B/La5F

Edited by GridiroN
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Some people just don't jive with certain aircrafts. I have 1000+hrs in the BF109, and I am terrible with it. I'm lucky if I get 1 kill in 2hr30min game. I've gotten 3-5kills in 20min in a Yak1B/La5F

This is definitely true. More so than the notion that the Bf 109 is somehow a “hard” aircraft to master.

 

I feel this way about the MC.202. I’m just horrible in it.

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There are other ways to fight in a 109 that don't include high speed, high altitude diving attacks. You can, for example, use the 109's fantastic low speed maneuverability to your advantage, though that does come with associated risks. Alternatively you can use the 109's really quite good power to weight ratio to engage in a vertically rolling dogfight, the G series 109's are particularly good in this role. You can try a horizontal fight in the 109 but that is a crap shoot at the best of times but the leading edge slats make the 109 a real contender in these fights. You have options in the 109's beyond climb way up high, dive on the target and run away.

 

That's how I tried to play it most of the time and that comes more naturally to me. I did have some great rolling scissors where I came out on top against Yaks but as you say there are risks, usually there's another that comes in, then another, it's hard to commit to those kind of fights and expect to get out. I did have a K/D of 2 and a K/AC-lost just over 1 at one point doing this but it's not great just trading yourself 1 for 1 with an enemy. I wanted to focus on survival so I tried switching to straight BnZ instead. I need to find a balance now.

 

An unexperienced pilot will do better in the yak 1 because you dont need as much experience to exploit its strengths.

The 109 however has much greater potential than the yak but is way harder to master.

There is nothing dirty about the yak being easier to fly.

 

 

 

High speed slashing attacks is exactly how you should not fly the 109.

You want to convert all you Ekin to Epot in the 109 while never raising your Ekin too high, because that means lock up.

The skill you have to acquire to master the 109 is to keep your energy JUST high enough that your enemy cant touch you and never to raise the Ekin of your plane above a certain threshold so your enemy cant evade your attacks without wasting all his E.

 

I would not disagree with the first bit and I'm glad nobody thought my thread was a FM whine or something like that. It's obvious I need more practice and I will do. But that doesn't mean I can't feel bad when I feel like I'm seal clubbing, given a lot of 109 pilots I ran into seemed to be having the same trouble I had. I was cringing, watching guys come in thinking "if I was him I would do X and then I'd be dead... yup... he did X... *sigh*... sorry man!" Not only is the Yak easy to fly I was using my 109 knowledge against them on top of that. Just felt so mean, hence my little rant ;)

 

The second part is easy to say, hard to do. I'll keep trying but at the moment I feel I'm in a catch-22 where if I'm slow enough to get hits I'm already too slow to escape and vice-versa.

 

Some people just don't jive with certain aircrafts. I have 1000+hrs in the BF109, and I am terrible with it. I'm lucky if I get 1 kill in 2hr30min game. I've gotten 3-5kills in 20min in a Yak1B/La5F

 

I do enjoy flying the 109, it has a great feeling of power especially in the climb and handles really nice at the stall. I fly it because historically it's my favourite plane, not because I want to fly the strongest, that's partly why it frustrates me that I'm struggling with it. If I've said anything in this thread it's that I don't want to be flying the thing that makes it all feel too easy. Might come across a tad hypocritical from an aspiring 109 pilot but I'll get there. :salute:

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I understand. I will be spending a lot of time in the P39 even though I'm sure A) im going to be terrible in it and B) it was a pretty average airplane by class, though one of the most successful designs, oddly. 


This is definitely true. More so than the notion that the Bf 109 is somehow a “hard” aircraft to master.

I feel this way about the MC.202. I’m just horrible in it.

 

I feel like maneuvering is hard in the 109; in that sense I find it hard to master. It's easy enough to drop on people when you have the advantage and climb away, but when I lose the advantage or someone gets behind me, I find defensive flying in the 109 extremely difficult. I feel like I know what I want to do, but can't convince the plane to do it. Others I fight against when flying Russian don't seem to have this issue. It's rather frustrating when flying Germ. 

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This is definitely true. More so than the notion that the Bf 109 is somehow a “hard” aircraft to master.

 

I feel this way about the MC.202. I’m just horrible in it.

 

You all mean, there MIGHT be a craft even I could be good in?

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To me defensive in the 109 is pretty easy, if time consuming:

 

1. Pull angles to avoid giving him a shot until his energy is approaching yours.

 

2. Go into a shallow dive at WEP to gain a slight bit of distance.

 

3. Switch to combat power and start a shallow climb that only slowly degrades your speed.

 

4. Once you see him start to fall behind, pull back to get to optimal climb speed and get on top.

Edited by Finkeren
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The skill you have to acquire to master the 109 is to keep your energy JUST high enough that your enemy cant touch you and never to raise the Ekin of your plane above a certain threshold so your enemy cant evade your attacks without wasting all his E.

Exactly! This is very well worded and is the 109 in a nutshell. It took me a while to finally figure this out. The 109 is not a 190 and yet many seem to fly them the same.

 

It’s totally subjective and as mentioned earlier, different kites for different people. That said, I personally think that if you put 1000 hrs in a 109 and a 1000 hrs in a Yak, then had to choose one to dogfight in with your life on the line, you’d choose the 109. At least that’s my opinion :)

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To me defensive in the 109 is pretty easy, if time consuming:

 

1. Pull angles to avoid giving him a shot until his energy is approaching yours.

 

2. Go into a shallow dive at WEP to gain a slight bit of distance.

 

3. Switch to combat power and start a shallow climb that only slowly degrades your speed.

 

4. Once you see him start to fall behind, pull back to get to optimal climb speed and get on top.

 

Can confirm this works. Speed for the shallow climb extend about 450km/h as per advice here: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/33515-how-outdive-yak-109/

 

Having said that I've occasionally had success with:

 

1. Stick forward roll/opposite rudder (Hartmann defense) while dropping throttle to zero

2. Wind down flaps to 10-15 degrees and scissors on edge of stall

3. As he overshoots, slam the throttle to WEP, pull lead and pray to whatever you believe in that your shot connects, because you're not getting a second...

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A good tip I just received is to set convergence in the 109 F and early G quite far, like 600 or more meters,

Since all guns are concentrated in the nose, you do not need to fix a closer convergence spot.

The fire will be quite tight anyway.

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To me defensive in the 109 is pretty easy, if time consuming:

 

1. Pull angles to avoid giving him a shot until his energy is approaching yours.

 

2. Go into a shallow dive at WEP to gain a slight bit of distance.

 

3. Switch to combat power and start a shallow climb that only slowly degrades your speed.

 

4. Once you see him start to fall behind, pull back to get to optimal climb speed and get on top.

 

Yes, I do this all the time. It's more an issue of when this doesn't work, enemy too close, scissoring, deck fighting, that kind of thing. 

 

 

A good tip I just received is to set convergence in the 109 F and early G quite far, like 600 or more meters,

Since all guns are concentrated in the nose, you do not need to fix a closer convergence spot.

The fire will be quite tight anyway.

 

The problem with that is convergence on nose mounted aircraft rises the pitch of the guns making bouncing enemy aircrafts or shooting at targets closer overly difficult. 

 

I set my convergence in the BF109 @ 280. Gives best results for all distances for me. 330 in the Yak-1B

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This type of thread is a classic.

 

The OP always and only flies 109s; and is generally inefficient with the plane.

 

Then OP flies the Yak once and does well - because, comparatively, it can be more forgiving when fighting against turning & burning 109 pilots who are much like the OP - probably new players only now being exposed to the contagious ideas of bias and over-performance in team chat and teamspeak, all while they twist and turn their joysticks wildly left and right in the 16-man pain-trains on Wings of Liberty.  The OP probably starting talking in game chat about how easy the Yak was as soon as he took off.

 

Next, OP comes to forums proclaiming easy mode VVS.  Then OP is celebrated by the few die-hards who are so entrenched in this idea that they have spent years posting the same JPEGs of translated manuals, anecdotes, and their own ideas of combustion to cultivate the idea that Bf109s are perpetually misrepresented in flight sims. 

 

The next step is a fork in the road, and is always a fun one: the OP will either remove his head from the dark place it is in (y'know... sand, or something) and differentiate between fighting styles and strengths; or, he will get a shiny new avatar, some new quotes in his signature, and probably a JG tag in front of his name. 

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I'm going to second that some aircraft and their play styles are not entirely compatible. I'm passably good with the Bf109 but put me in the FW190 and I'm really really good - for me anyways :biggrin: . And that was even when the FW190's fm was terrible. It's just that I can fly that to that aircraft and its style much better than other types.

 

The Yak is another favourite that I've acquired after years and years of flying. It's great handling but it also just works for me.

 

Sometimes you just work with an aircraft. In the old days when we flew in the Pacific everyone was always having a great time flying the A6M Zero. I'm terrible at that plane... But put me in the Ki-61/Ki-100 and I can do well.

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In the old days when we flew in the Pacific everyone was always having a great time flying the A6M Zero. I'm terrible at that plane... But put me in the Ki-61/Ki-100 and I can do well.

 

Wow. I thought I was the only one. I was tutored in the Ki-61 and it came to be my most comfortable plane: While the most popular opinion of it then was "yeah, it's an OK plane for early-mid war", I did well in it. Curiously, and somewhat counter-logically, I did better in the "Ko" version with 2 12.7mm & 2 7.7mm guns than the "Otsu" version with 4 12.7mm guns.

 

Anyway, it really does seem all about "the groove", and I can't chalk it up to only familiarity and leave it at that: I've felt the groove on some planes right from the beginning...Other planes I've been able to fly well in the best of circumstances, but couldn't quite put the pieces together to do well when the going gets rough.

 

As I've heard some say of the car business: "There's an ass for every seat".

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Yes, I do this all the time. It's more an issue of when this doesn't work, enemy too close, scissoring, deck fighting, that kind of thing.

 

If you find yourself on the deck with a Yak with better energy state on your six, you better hope that he’s a bad shot, because you just played all your cards into his hand.

 

If you find playing defensive from that position hard, that’s because it is hard. A Yak, a Spitfire or maybe a Fw 190 might be better suited for getting out of such a mess, but even for them it’s still a very bad situation.

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After mixed results mainly flying the 109 for the month or so I've had this game, and getting a bit frustrated, I took the Yak-1 out today. I've flown it once or twice before, seemed pleasant. Today I got 5 kills in 2 sorties, 6 if you count the guy that rammed me to end my second one and 7 if I get cheeky and count a "manoeuvre kill" where I never hit him but he hit a tree trying to yo-yo after a long scissors. I don't consider myself a great pilot but that just felt too easy. In the 109 I work my a*** off and I'm lucky if I get one before I go down, and I almost never live long enough to RTB. Yak, chilled, not even trying that hard, 3 kills first sortie undamaged RTB, 2 second sortie total 5 for 1. I genuinely felt dirty flying this plane...

I felt pretty much the same in my rookie days. Easy maneuvering, easy kills and it`s simple to go horizontal all of the time. And then I went online...I couldn`t survive more than 8-10 sorties because when _____ hit the fan, my plane would fall apart 500m from the ground. When 3rd Reich planes hit, they mostly hit hard and unless you`re in a LaGG/La or something American, it`s going to hurt.

 

Now if you fly LW long enough, things get easier by every sortie. After some hours you get to see that pretty much every VVS flyer has an mo which you begin to counter. Better your deflection shooting and 3-5 kills a sortie is not so hard.

Sometimes you just work with an aircraft. In the old days when we flew in the Pacific everyone was always having a great time flying the A6M Zero. I'm terrible at that plane... But put me in the Ki-61/Ki-100 and I can do well.

I remember DFing with 3 Hellcats in the Zero on a daily basis. They just couldn`t get a shot at me. Still, the Ki61 is my fav Jap plane.

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High speed slashing attacks is exactly how you should not fly the 109.

You want to convert all you Ekin to Epot in the 109 while never raising your Ekin too high, because that means lock up.

The skill you have to acquire to master the 109 is to keep your energy JUST high enough that your enemy cant touch you and never to raise the Ekin of your plane above a certain threshold so your enemy cant evade your attacks without wasting all his E.

I`ll keep my high speed slashing attacks, thank you very much. Lockup is something I got to live with, shooting or maneuvering.

 

Lower speed df is good in a 1v1 scenario but in a coop where people cooperate in pairs or fours, you`re toast.

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with your life on the line, you’d choose the 109. At least that’s my opinion :)

It's true, when engaged you can choose to disengage in a 109, in a Yak-1 you either need to turn the dogfight or hope for your enemy to give up and disengage himself.

 

Given that most people fly as lone wolfs the 109 really lacks sometimes, if you fly a group of 109s vs a group of Yak-1s the superiority of the 109 will become pretty apparent though. Nothing against the OP, the Yak is very forgiving and a beast in itself.

 

Some people go on Berloga an compare aircraft perfomances there - how silly, of course airplanes with the lowest turnradius have an upper hand there.

Edited by 216th_Jordan

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Yeah a 1 vs. 1 scenario is never a good way to judge an aircraft's real life capabilities.

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This type of thread is a classic.

 

...

Ah, there we go, there's the patronising backlash I was expecting. If you had actually bothered to read anything I wrote you would realise that:

 

1) I am under no illusions about what the 109 can and can't do nor expect it to perform miracles when used wrong

2) I've been trying different things in the 109 including practicing using it in the way it's "meant" to be used and I fully accept the issue is with me not the plane

3) I did not make any generalisations or cry OP, just reflecting on my experience

4) I'm not looking for confirmation or excuses, I want to get good with the 109 and I have a decent idea of what I need to do to get there.

 

Anyway, it's interesting that someone raised escape. Yes the 109 has the power and climb to leave when it wants in theory, but in practice it's hard to disengage if you overcommit and reds will happily chase you to the ends of the earth. Flying red I find you get your 6 cleared by random friendlies much more regularly and can leave a fight simply because LW pilots disengage; they know tunnel vision on a low alt target is suicide in the long term. In that sense it feels much easier to really commit to a fight as red and expect to leave it at the end.

Edited by VC_
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 Flying red I find you get your 6 cleared by random friendlies much more regularly and can leave a fight simply because LW pilots disengage; they know tunnel vision on a low alt target is suicide in the long term. In that sense it feels much easier to really commit to a fight as red and expect to leave it at the end.

 

Even accepting this to be true - personally I don't experience that great a difference between how red vs. blue pilots conduct themselves - it says more about the attitude of the players than the aircraft themselves.

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To be fair I don't think there is anything unusual about a plane that is a vicious killer when it is able to dive on an unaware or low-E victim but struggles to escape when someone is on its six.  In fact that pretty much applies to *every* fighter;   once someone is on your six, I mean actually latched on rather than just trying a B&Z,  then you are in deep sh*t.  The only variable is just how deep the sh*t is.    Some aircraft give you a better *chance* to survive, or for a talented pilot to turn the tables, but I don't think any aircraft is so good that it is easy to achieve.     That said, even as a crap pilot I do sometimes feel a little uncomfortable with what I get away with in a Yak-1b :-)   OTOH,  I also feel uncomfortable flying the 109 as its ability to engage its rockets and return to the stratosphere more than makes up for any lock up in a dive.  Very similar to a fighter versus a bomber.  Patience will guarantee a kill but impatience can easily kill you.  Of course in a game people are impatient because they want to get the kill before someone else steals it :-)

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This type of thread is a classic.

 

The OP always and only flies 109s; and is generally inefficient with the plane.

 

Then OP flies the Yak once and does well - because, comparatively, it can be more forgiving when fighting against turning & burning 109 pilots who are much like the OP - probably new players only now being exposed to the contagious ideas of bias and over-performance in team chat and teamspeak, all while they twist and turn their joysticks wildly left and right in the 16-man pain-trains on Wings of Liberty.  The OP probably starting talking in game chat about how easy the Yak was as soon as he took off.

 

Next, OP comes to forums proclaiming easy mode VVS.  Then OP is celebrated by the few die-hards who are so entrenched in this idea that they have spent years posting the same JPEGs of translated manuals, anecdotes, and their own ideas of combustion to cultivate the idea that Bf109s are perpetually misrepresented in flight sims. 

 

The next step is a fork in the road, and is always a fun one: the OP will either remove his head from the dark place it is in (y'know... sand, or something) and differentiate between fighting styles and strengths; or, he will get a shiny new avatar, some new quotes in his signature, and probably a JG tag in front of his name. 

Didn't you find a thread where your post would actually fitted and it was too good not to post so you just had to post it in this one? Since that kind of thing can happen but obviously this thread was not really one of those?

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Tuesday's not wrong, though. People flock to the LW side of this game because they believe that the German equipment will be superior to the Soviet to such a degree that they will enjoy the kind of success in the sim that the experten did IRL. When that inevitably does not happen (for many reasons, flight models being just one), they suffer great frustration and disappointment.

 

I am well aware of this phenomenon. At the same time I am really tired of the assumption that everyone who flies (only) axis side is like this. Or that all the people who fly axis do so because they want to win and choose side with superior planes/greater numbers because of that. For example in my case I am interested about FiAF, Luftwaffe, USAAF, USN, USMC and RAF and don't give a rat's ass about VVS or Japanese Air Force or Navy. In Western Front scenario I am happy to fly either Axis or Allies but I have zero interest flying soviet air force and I have no intention of starting (Also Russia/Soviet Union was ancient enemy of Finland, fact that maybe influences my position.) 

 

Anyway this being off topic I will stop this line of discussion from my part now.

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Well it would help a lot if the 109 actually performed like it should in the turn :D

 

Currently esp. the 109 seems to be seriously underperforming in terms of turn rate, which makes it unrealistically hard for all you 109 jocks out there. 

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