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ME262 rivals?

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Hmm... Germany would have been much better had it not indulged in an ideology based on outrageous ethnic fantasies? 

 

What's obvious is obvious, but since you're new, FYI it's best to just keep it about hardware, tactics etc around here.

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Well, that last sentence is actually true :)

 

Finkeren: Your two weapons systems were very mature systems with a long service life.  If the war had lasted longer I am pretty sure the ROI on the 262 would have looked better.  Since it didn't we'll never really know for sure. I would argue that in 1945 it was providing a much better ROI than the Me109s and FW190s.  

Way off topic.  True ... but still way off topic.  Nazis were bad.  Good that they were defeated.  Would have been better if the never existed.  But they did exist.  And they lost.  The end.

Yes they were bad, to an extent but they were a reaction to the realities of the day.  Realities that unfortunately seem to be raising their heads again in the West (think of Money Systems and Cultural Financial issues).

 

The 262, to little too late.  Had it been developed for the purpose it was intended without the interference of the idiot in charge, then it would have had a much more devastating effect on the 8th Air Force and probably limited their operations to night like the RAF Bomber Command was doing.

 

As for the East, racial clap trap and a policy of scorch earth by the Germans didn't help their cause.  Why they had such nonsense against people in the East, I do not know but it definitely played against them, that and their logistics but I see those 2 issues both tied together.

 

Frankly, War sucks and yet here we are sleep walking blindly into another.  I like technical development and challenge of this simming but knowing that it is not a real life situation.

 

My vote for challenge to the 262, Tiger Moth ;)

Doh! did I just commit a cardinal sin???

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Still going to disagree.  The Internet (which is never to be disputed) says about 56K RM for a 109 or 190 while the 262 (including two engines) cost about 100K RM.  For the task of taking down heavies IMHO the 262 provides more than twice the value of the prop planes.  A Tiger cost 3x a Stug ... different argument altogether.

 

You could argue that the development costs should be added, and that is a fair point.  However, when you are already horribly outnumbered I am not at all sure that more relatively equivalent equipment is the answer.  I do agree that an investment in logistics would have been the best use of money, as that was the achilles heel of the German army, but again, different topic.

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I don't think you can characterize the Me 262 as "too little, too late". Germany would have lost the war just as well without it as they would have done had it been available in numbers in 1941.

 

In the history of warfare I struggle to find even a single example of a war that was turned around drastically much less decided by the introduction of a new technology during the war. It just doesn't happen.

 

Was the Me 262 worth it? I personally doubt it, but I can't say for sure. Its combat record is far too spotty, poorly documented and seriously affected by other factors to definitively call it one way or the other (something that is much easier to do with other German oddities like the Me 163) 

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I think you missed the point.

Shooting a large, level flying bomber is not the same thing as engaging a Spitfire or other prop fighter.

 

 

If you check the text i quoted, he said that even shooting bombers was difficult. That's why i answered. 

  It's true. The Mk108 has pretty crap trajectory, and inexperienced pilots had problems. But inexperienced pilots had problems hitting aerial moving targets with any guns. The 262 is not exactly bad from the gunnery perspective. It has a pretty good gunsight, four cannons, with identical trajectory, right the center line. You won't be distracted by secondary weapons and once you get used to it and understand the sight and trajectory, it can work. ... It just takes time.

Edited by Jaws2002

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It's true. The Mk108 has pretty crap trajectory, and inexperienced pilots had problems. But inexperienced pilots had problems hitting aerial moving targets with any guns. The 262 is not exactly bad from the gunnery perspective. It has a pretty good gunsight, four cannons, with identical trajectory, right the center line. You won't be distracted by secondary weapons and once you get used to it and understand the sight and trajectory, it can work. ... It just takes time.

 

Four Mk108 offer a good combined rate of fire for such big projectiles, too. Considering that a single hit most certainly will down a fighter, the spray and pray should be a valid tactic in a dogfight.

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What are those factors for success then if the capability of the weapon is in question? The end result would be based on what?

 

- Pilot training

- Pilot availability

- Numerical situation once in the air/on the battlfield (who has overall superiority of the air/ground?)

- Maintenance

- Fuel 

 

Just to name a few...

Edited by Panthera

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Meteor? lel

hahaha, don't get me wrong dude, but I already see how spit and p51 gets beaten up in DCS by Bf 109K4. :-) It's so easy that someone new to ww2 dogfights, could rek a P51 without any problems.

History Channel is bad mkay?

 

I feel a bit sorry for the P51 fans out there because i like 51 and saw it live, but there is no hope for it when a 109 at same alt meets a P51.

It's questionable trying to base opinions of real life experience from flying a sim, no matter how good it is. The game is still just an approximation of reality. I think this sim is amazing and as true to life as I expect to experience but it can't replicate the physical and emotional stresses felt by pilots in WWII where every decision had life and death. It doesn't factor in wear and tear on the airframes or the quality of its manufacture from the start. Whether the Bf-109K4 in DCS eats P-51s for lunch means little in regards to reality. And as has been said many times, how we fly in a game bears little resemblance to real life. If we could somehow be magically transported back in time and strapped into our favorite fighter plane the majority wouldn't last the day, no matter how badass we think we are.

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And that exactly is the problem of introducing radical new weapon systems in the middle of a war, especially if you're losing.

 

Also: The Fw 190 only entered mass production in 1941 and the Panzer III (which was the basis for most Stugs) in 1939. Neither of them had particularly long service lives, nor where they very mature at the point where they started to prove their worth. What sets them apart from stuff like the Me 262 is the fact, that they were comparatively cheap, conventional and immediately effective. 

 

Both of those weapons systems you mention were first fielded during a period where the Germans didn't lack oil, fuel and trained personnel. Later weapons systems had to perform under MUCH worse conditions, which included:  

- lack of trained operators

- huge numerical disadvantage everytime they went into combat 

- greatly increased time between maintenance stops due to lack of oil & spare parts

- limited fuel reserves which meant you couldn't even operate all the examples you managed to produce, and the ones you could operate you could only do so for half the time.

 

In short, and as already mentioned, the performance of a weapons system in combat is affected mostly by the combined effect of the skill of the guys operating them, how regularly they are maintained, how well they are supplied and what numerical odds they are facing once in action.

 

The Finns proved the above pretty conclusively as they mauled the VVS whilst flying Brewster Buffalos.

Edited by Panthera

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190's exist for the bounce - I don't believe a decent pilot will have difficulty making the 262 work. The speed delta already exists with prop jobs bouncing fights on the deck. People in here know how to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Theory crafting the cans and cant's of a plane is typically a myopic affair and generally a waste of time. We'll know how well the 262 works when we can get our filthy hands on them.

 

von Luck

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The 262, to little too late.  Had it been developed for the purpose it was intended without the interference of the idiot in charge, then it would have had a much more devastating effect on the 8th Air Force and probably limited their operations to night like the RAF Bomber Command was doing.

 

 

 

There is actually an alternate version of that story told in "Wages of Destruction", by Adam Tooze (an essential read for any WW2 nut BTW).

 

The ME 262 prototype first flew in the summer of 1942 and Hitler gave it top priority, although that did not mean much in the Third Reich since he seemed to give top priority to a pet project every month or so.

 

Willie Messerschmitt had been burned on the ME-210 project when he hurried it into mass production without adequate testing so he dragged his heels on the ME 262, presenting other alternative projects instead. To be fair, there were also massive technological challenges in getting the first jet fighter in the air, not least of which was a serious lack of raw materials .

 

However the real problem was Albert Speer. He had been expanding his authority over armaments production, but could not get authority over Luftwaffe procurement because of Goering. When he found out the V1/V2 program was an "Army" project and therefore under his authority, he used that to try to get authority over the Luftwaffe indirectly. Speer got Hitler to give the V2 rocket program "top priority" in the summer of 1943 and then used that to siphon resources to the V1/V2 program. So in 1943-44, the V1/V2 and the ME 262 were all competing for resources with the results that we know.

 

OTOH, even if the ME-262 had been given top priority, it is doubtful it would have appeared more than say 6 months before it did. The ME-262 first flew in july 1942 and became operational in July 1944. The British jet, the Gloster Meteor, first flew in march 1943 and also became operational in july 1944.

 

Again, according to Tooze, the myth that Hitler slowed the 262 program by insisting on a bomber version, was constructed after the war by Galland, Messerschmitt and Heinkel to place all the blame on Hitler. Again that is not unusual,  there were a lot of self serving biographies that came out right after the war where important figures in German business/Army blamed Hitler for all of their mistakes.

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Ah yes, the infallible brits. Milo you're living in a fantasy world.

 

No fantasy world. What the general public got and what the authorities knew was quit different.

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Instead of trying to field Carcharodon carcharias, which are few and far between, and possible to avoid even if you do encounter one, the Germans would have been better off fielding swarms of Pygocentrus nattereri, which come in large schools and are tough to shake off if you get into a bunch of them. They'll strip your bones clean.

 

That's my ichthyological theory of air warfare.

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If you check the text i quoted, he said that even shooting bombers was difficult. That's why i answered. 

  It's true. The Mk108 has pretty crap trajectory, and inexperienced pilots had problems. But inexperienced pilots had problems hitting aerial moving targets with any guns. The 262 is not exactly bad from the gunnery perspective. It has a pretty good gunsight, four cannons, with identical trajectory, right the center line. You won't be distracted by secondary weapons and once you get used to it and understand the sight and trajectory, it can work. ... It just takes time.

 

I was really not going to say anything, and I do like you, so I didn't want this to get ugly, but you're being unfair and unrealistic, both for calling my input on this thread "BS", and for disagreeing with the general idea being made. It is hard enough in a conventional aircraft like a 109, in a simulation, that doesn't account for Gforce on the pilot, or pressure on the control surfaces, coming down on a PE2 at 700kph to steer, and line up a shot that's actually going to hit, let alone at 900+. 

 

Source:

 

The Royal Navy's best test pilot, Captain Eric Brown, chief naval test pilot and commanding officer of the Captured Enemy Aircraft Flight Royal Aircraft Establishment, who tested the Me 262 noted: "This was a Blitzkrieg aircraft. You whack in at your bomber. It was never meant to be a dogfighter, it was meant to be a destroyer of bombers... The great problem with it was it did not have dive brakes. For example, if you want to fight and destroy a B-17, you come in on a dive. The 30mm cannon were not so accurate beyond 600 metres. So you normally came in at 600 yards and would open fire on your B-17. And your closing speed was still high and since you had to break away at 200 meters to avoid a collision, you only had two seconds firing time. Now, in two seconds, you can't sight. You can fire randomly and hope for the best. If you want to sight and fire, you need to double that time to four seconds. And with dive brakes, you could have done that."%5B50%5D

Eventually, German pilots developed new combat tactics to counter Allied bombers' defences. Me 262s, equipped with up to 24 unguided folding-fin R4M rockets—12 in each of two underwing racks, outboard of the engine nacelle—approached from the side of a bomber formation, where their silhouettes were widest, and while still out of range of the bombers' machine guns, fired a salvo of rockets with strongly brisant Hexogen-filled warheads, exactly the same explosive in the shells fired by the Me 262A's quartet of MK 108 cannon. One or two of these rockets could down even the famously rugged B-17 Flying Fortress,%5B51%5D

Both of these are from the book "Air Combat Manoeuvres [2008]"

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I was really not going to say anything, and I do like you, so I didn't want this to get ugly, but you're being unfair and unrealistic, both for calling my input on this thread "BS", and for disagreeing with the general idea being made. It is hard enough in a conventional aircraft like a 109, in a simulation, that doesn't account for Gforce on the pilot, or pressure on the control surfaces, coming down on a PE2 at 700kph to steer, and line up a shot that's actually going to hit, let alone at 900+. 

 

 

It should be noted that the Me262 had no issues with "steering" at 700 kph, or even 900 kph. 

 

That said no'one ever said it was going to be "easy", however seeing as we can fly the aircraft again and again, pushing all the limits as we see fit and simply respawn everytime we die, we will also undoubtedly end up a lot more proficient than most of the pilots who were pressed into flying the thing with precious little training during WW2 ever had the chance to become.

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Steering in a slightly different direction... There's the inherent cool factor of flying a jet in a sim that is otherwise populated by propeller fighters. That jet sound and the smooth flying that you don't get from the propeller aircraft that vibrate so much. Also, when you put the Me262 in a sim you get that sense that you're flying the future. I realize that it happened over 70 years ago but the 262 is just really interesting as an aircraft that marks a change in propulsion and a new era in flight.

 

That has a certain appeal.

 

 

I'm pretty excited to see them model it and I'm going to have a heck of a great time flying it too.

Edited by ShamrockOneFive
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It should be noted that the Me262 had no issues with "steering" at 700 kph, or even 900 kph. 

 

That said no'one ever said it was going to be "easy", however seeing as we can fly the aircraft again and again, pushing all the limits as we see fit and simply respawn everytime we die, we will also undoubtedly end up a lot more proficient than most of the pilots who were pressed into flying the thing with precious little training during WW2 ever had the chance to become.

 

Absolutely agree with that. Im sure even the mediocre pilots around here are far better than many of the actual pilots who flew these birds simply by virtue of that simple fact. 

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It should be noted that the Me262 had no issues with "steering" at 700 kph, or even 900 kph.

 

Critical Mach 0.86, according to Willy. This is where you *lost* control. How many km/h that is depends on altitude etc. But as you say, it was very easy to hit this barrier as controls were ok and it accellerated very fast at that speed (compared to props) until suddenly the nasty things start to happen.

 

Critical Mach in comparison:

 

Tempest V: 0.83

Spitfire XiV: 0.89

 

With prop planes, going above Mach 0.8 is certainly interesting. It is of note that the 262 is not very different form those late war piston fighters in max. dive speed. The Spitfire XIV however suffered from skin wrinkling on the wings in full power dives, something that could be mitigated by clipping the wings. For the Tempest V, especially from the second series on with the reinforced wings, you could go as fast as you dared without any worry to the aircraft.

 

As long as you come in fast and maintain shallow dives or climbs, you're untouchable in the 262. But the question is whether you can really touch something as slow as a LA-5 going on combat speed.

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At critical mach the 262 was subject to severe flutter (depending on build quality this could happen earlier) which was dangerous due to the fact the 262 is not easy to stop. If you get overspeed in a dive your chances of recovering are minimal.

 

If and how flutter is/will be included ingame is uncertain however.

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I guess flutter is modelled so far. This is supposedly what makes planes shed their control surfaces, but without the heavy shaking that comes along with it. Or was there another reason why control surfaces come off?

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I guess flutter is modelled so far. This is supposedly what makes planes shed their control surfaces, but without the heavy shaking that comes along with it. Or was there another reason why control surfaces come off?

I think it is. I remember watching ingame record, when I was diving with MiG-3 and at high speed wings start waving (a little) to me  :fly:

Edited by =L/R=Mad_Mikhael

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It would be silly to have the technochat tell us that “flutter is imminent” if it wasn’t modeled.

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It would be silly to have the technochat tell us that “flutter is imminent” if it wasn’t modeled.

:huh: There is a such thing in technochat? I'm flying without technochat, so I have no idea  :lol:

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Critical Mach 0.86, according to Willy. This is where you *lost* control. How many km/h that is depends on altitude etc. But as you say, it was very easy to hit this barrier as controls were ok and it accellerated very fast at that speed (compared to props) until suddenly the nasty things start to happen.

 

Critical Mach in comparison:

 

Tempest V: 0.83

Spitfire XiV: 0.89

 

With prop planes, going above Mach 0.8 is certainly interesting. It is of note that the 262 is not very different form those late war piston fighters in max. dive speed. The Spitfire XIV however suffered from skin wrinkling on the wings in full power dives, something that could be mitigated by clipping the wings. For the Tempest V, especially from the second series on with the reinforced wings, you could go as fast as you dared without any worry to the aircraft.

 

As long as you come in fast and maintain shallow dives or climbs, you're untouchable in the 262. But the question is whether you can really touch something as slow as a LA-5 going on combat speed.

 

As far as I am aware shallow dives and climbs was the technique.  You were already much faster so the sorts of violent dives that one might do in a prop were not as useful in the 262.  

 

I go back to purpose: bomber killer.  Fighter kills were opportunity, not purpose.  You would not put your 262 into a screaming dive to attack a group of fighters below.  You would mostly ignore them and keep going for the bombers.

 

Mission making for the 262: I am going to create bomber intercepts using the B-25 as the closest thing to a heavy.  Put as many B-25s as the game can handle, give them an escort, and see if the missions are fun to play.  Maybe occasionally spawn a fighter patrol over your base to let you deal with that.  

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Critical Mach 0.86, according to Willy. This is where you *lost* control. How many km/h that is depends on altitude etc. But as you say, it was very easy to hit this barrier as controls were ok and it accellerated very fast at that speed (compared to props) until suddenly the nasty things start to happen.

 

Critical Mach in comparison:

 

Tempest V: 0.83

Spitfire XiV: 0.89

 

With prop planes, going above Mach 0.8 is certainly interesting. It is of note that the 262 is not very different form those late war piston fighters in max. dive speed. The Spitfire XIV however suffered from skin wrinkling on the wings in full power dives, something that could be mitigated by clipping the wings. For the Tempest V, especially from the second series on with the reinforced wings, you could go as fast as you dared without any worry to the aircraft.

 

As long as you come in fast and maintain shallow dives or climbs, you're untouchable in the 262. But the question is whether you can really touch something as slow as a LA-5 going on combat speed.

You're always going to have to be mindful of entry speed when diving the 262, the aircraft picking up speed much faster than any propjob and featuring no dive breaks to save you incase you crossed 1,000-1,050 kph and control was lost.

 

A small amount of flaps can be used to keep the acceleration down, but no more than 10 to 15 deg at speed.

 

In short it will be a different experience flying the 262, one where you will have to be much more mindful of your speed as compared with the conventional types. I used to fly around at medium throttle and 700 kph most the time in IL2 46, that way I had a good 300 kph buffer between max permissable and what I considered the minimum fighting speed.

Edited by Panthera

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As far as I am aware shallow dives and climbs was the technique.  You were already much faster so the sorts of violent dives that one might do in a prop were not as useful in the 262.  

 

I go back to purpose: bomber killer.  Fighter kills were opportunity, not purpose.  You would not put your 262 into a screaming dive to attack a group of fighters below.  You would mostly ignore them and keep going for the bombers.

 

Mission making for the 262: I am going to create bomber intercepts using the B-25 as the closest thing to a heavy.  Put as many B-25s as the game can handle, give them an escort, and see if the missions are fun to play.  Maybe occasionally spawn a fighter patrol over your base to let you deal with that.

 

For sure, shallow dives or shallow climbs with high entry speeds is what keeps you alive in the 262. My point was more that IF you have a late war prop fighter steeply diving at you (being lucky enough to be in position for an intercept), you will not be faster than him when diving away. All you can do is go the same speed, hoping he is not in firing range before compressibility sets in for everyone involved. This should not be the case however with the P38 that has a very low Mach number. This low Mach number was also the primary reason for not using the P38 as escort fighter anymore, once faster alternatives became available.

 

I very much like the idea of the B25 intercept missions. 262‘s not only intercepted heavies, Marauders etc. were indeed also common diet.

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I'm looking forward to killing them with my IL-2 1942. I'm getting bored with shooting down 109s. :biggrin:

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You're always going to have to be mindful of entry speed when diving the 262, the aircraft picking up speed much faster than any propjob and featuring no dive breaks to save you incase you crossed 1,000-1,050 kph and control was lost.

A small amount of flaps can be used to keep the acceleration down, but no more than 10 to 15 deg at speed.

In short it will be a different experience flying the 262, one where you will have to be much more mindful of your speed as compared with the conventional types. I used to fly around at medium throttle and 700 kph most the time in IL2 46, that way I had a good 300 kph buffer between max permissable and what I considered the minimum fighting speed.

You would use flaps at these high speeds? I guess that must affect trim badly if they stayed on at all? Or was this done? I never read about such procedure.

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You would use flaps at these high speeds? I guess that must affect trim badly if they stayed on at all? Or was this done? I never read about such procedure.

 

It affects trim quite a bit yes, but I would only use it shortly to prevent picking up speed too rapidly.  I don't believe it was done in reality much if at all though.

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Do you have the undercarriage switch in the 'neutral' position when operating the flaps?

No? There are 6 settings available by push buttons, 0,10,20,30,40 & 50 deg of flaps. I only ever used 10 at speed in IL2 46.

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So you are gaming the game.

 

For flap operation the u/c switch had to be in neutral to operate the flaps. Also flaps were infinitely variable thru the deployment range.(Me262manual)

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So you are gaming the game.

 

For flap operation the u/c switch had to be in neutral to operate the flaps. Also flaps were infinitely variable thru the deployment range.(Me262manual)

 

I simply used the flaps the only way the game allowed me to, which was in steps. Remember the cockpit operations weren't particularly well modelled in IL2 '46, at least not back when I played it.

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If a 262 is caught slow (especially on takeoff/landing) pretty much anything is a match for the 262. This is why historically you'll see lines of flak and AA emplacements leading up to the end of a runway or fighter sweeps over top of 262s that are landing. If a 262 catches you unawares or they play smart and keep their speed, opperating the throttle smoothly and carefully, the thing will be uncatchable, and with those 30mm, a force to be reckoned with. Like with most planes in this sim it'll all come down to pilot skill/flight style.

 

Also, from what I understand, the thing was agile at high speeds. Like the 190s we have in BoX.

I really hope that when your ME 262 is first spotted, a flight of Tempests spawn and immediately fly to your airbase, where they will loiter at 2000m and wait. Once you return, they will attack your flight as you come in to land. After a few days, the Germans dump a ton of AA at the approaches to the airfield, making it more dangerous for the Tempests, and after a while they stop. However, expect to take losses while landing, and just hope the Tempests miss their first burst, or you may be in quite a bit of trouble.

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Funny, I fly it now and its so slow any propeller plane can catch me....max 500 km/h in level flight is it some bug or iam doing something wrong??? I am using auto engine management.

Anybody same experience?

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5 minutes ago, easyTarget said:

Funny, I fly it now and its so slow any propeller plane can catch me....max 500 km/h in level flight is it some bug or iam doing something wrong??? I am using auto engine management.

Anybody same experience?

My guess is, don't use auto engine management and you will be much faster. I don't know how it works, but you are not the first player having issues with it in any plane and as far as I remember the issues were always gone after the players turned it off. You don't need it anyway. Don't fly with more than 8400RPM for longer than 15minutes, hold the gas temperature between 400 and 600°and increase and decrease power not too fast.

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After having flown this bird aplenty I can routinely fly @ just under 600kph with 2xsc250 bombs, 75% fuel, only two 30mm canon, front armor removed, and throttle setting @ 94%.  She's slow to climb but once at altitude nothing can catch you and when diving into drop your load you're a bird among rats scurring around to catch you.  Once free of those bombs speed is around 650-700 kph and I then just fly around in shallow turns and look for airborne targets, remember to keep your speed up or you're a dead duck.  A good example is I got shot down by a P-38 today because I got cocky after damaging him and climbing straight up, well the left engine stalled and then you know the ending.  She's a winner if flown properly, just know what that is and don't let the whispering engine cloud your thoughts and stick to it's design, interceptor/JABO.

2019_11_9__19_41_25.jpg

Edited by GSP_Hund

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Cool necro.... 2 years ago that was all speculation, now we have actual data and experience.

 

In my P51 career, I experienced 3 missions against the 262 already. In all of them the AI 262 pilots did only one thing: dogfight in low altitudes - where they were caught in a very disavantageous situation and were shot down "easily". Insofar I am not finding that they are operated properly by the AI. 

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In this game / sim, the only real rival to the 262 is the MP mission builders. 

Not once since it come out, have I been able to fly it, in any MP mission. 

Seems to me that the mission builders are afraid of it. If it's there only one or two is available. 

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Go to the UnProfessionals server, they have it pretty much on every map that's in their rotation, but in limited numbers.  It does aggravate the other side with their inability to tackle this bird when properly flown, I can see why the allies setup patrols over known jet bases to keep them grounded or under "control".

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