Jump to content
OrLoK

ME262 rivals?

Recommended Posts

Not a realistic matchup but the YP-80 (essentially a P/F-80A) was deployed to Europe, and the Brits have their Meteors. I would imagine the Meteor might be planned as a special plane at some point at the very least.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is intriguing because at similar speed P51's ramjet radiator starts to gain efficiency, too.

 

Hahaha  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Btw if you fly with 1800 Liters of fuel instead of the full 2600 L, reducing the take off weight from 7100 kg to 6400 kg, then the Me262 can climb at well over 5000 ft/min.

But at that point you severely cut down your already short endurance. You’ll spend a good portion of the fuel just getting to combat speed and altitude, and then you are in trouble if your target avoids you for more than a couple of minutes.

 

It’s sort of an exacerbated version of the dilemma that’s likely gonna face us soon-to-be La-5FN pilots: Do we take full fuel and lose our edge in agility and climb performance or do we cut down on fuel and accept a maximum of 10mins combat time?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed:

http://www.supercoolprops.com/articles/meredith_effect.php

 

The same principle - just different heat source and, in case of Mustang enough thrust, to nullify cooling drag.

 

I've heard about it before, but it would only take away from those who argue that its speed was mostly due to how clean the design was and not that it had a makeshift ramjet adding thrust :)

 

Should be noted that the Spitfire had a particularly draggy radiator design, so it's not the best comparison :) That said most WW2 fighters enjoyed some benefits from the meredith effect, the P-51 was simply among those which benefitted the most from it. The increase in speed that the P-51 enjoyed over the Spitfire was however just as much down to how clean the design was.

Edited by Panthera

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think many people understand what the 262 is, or the historical usage of it. They just think it's a cool plane, that's a jet, and will own propellor driven opponents.

 

The 262, other than being highly difficult to fly as if you mishandle the throttle, the engines will break and you'll fall out of the sky, is so fast vs it's propellor driven opponents, you will almost never be able to hit anything unless you're an absolute legend, or you're willing to fly slow enough that propellor driven aircrafts can hit you just as easily as any other plane. 

 

The 262 was fitted with rockets for shooting down bombers because the plane was so fast the pilot only got about 1-2 seconds to line up a shot, which made actually fighting in a contemporary sense impossible. 

 

 

That's bs. The 262 was not that difficult to fly. The throttle required slow changes, and the plane operated at higher speeds then props, but, if the pilot understood it's flight regime and operating procedures, it was not difficult to fly.

 If it were so hard to hit props planes, with a jet fighter, how did the Russians cut to pieces all those B-29s in Korea, with the MiG-15? 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's bs. The 262 was not that difficult to fly. The throttle required slow changes, and the plane operated at higher speeds then props, but, if the pilot understood it's flight regime and operating procedures, it was not difficult to fly.

 If it were so hard to hit props planes, with a jet fighter, how did the Russians cut to pieces all those B-29s in Korea, with the MiG-15? 

 

It won't be difficult to fly no, infact it will be a lot easier to fly than most propeller driven aircraft as there will be no torque to deal with and no prop pitch to manage either. In addition to this the controls will be light at pretty much all speeds and the stall very benign due to the fully slatted wing.

 

HOWEVER, you can't compare at MiG-15 shooting at bombers with 700-800 m/s cannons with a Me262 shooting at much smaller and more agile prop fighters with cannons shooting at 505 m/s. There will be a difference! It's doable for sure, but it won't be the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 If it were so hard to hit props planes, with a jet fighter, how did the Russians cut to pieces all those B-29s in Korea, with the MiG-15? 

 

I think you missed the point.

Shooting a large, level flying bomber is not the same thing as engaging a Spitfire or other prop fighter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I'm flying for the Germans, I am upset by how easy most russian planes can dodge me, and how durable their planes are - when I fly as the Russians I am upset by how disciplined pilots can render themselves untouchable to my guns, and how they can disengage largely at will. The M262 will follow exactly the same principle, that is to say - it will be neither a match-winning wunderwaffe or an impossible-to-fly, useless suicide crate. It will occasionally be frustrating to face, and frustrating to fly. It will be good, it will be different, and I am keen to fly it.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm also very much opposed to the addition of the Me 262, but I guess we won't be able to avoid it. I just hope it will be strictly limited or locked on most of the servers I play. Not that I think it's necessarily OP, but it will just enhance the experience of flying in straight lines for very, very, very long times, sometimes being interrupted by an easy evasion of a 262, which will then proceed to bugger off. Large numbers of those planes will simply make aircombat incredibly boring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

109's are annoying enough as it is, this 262 is going to redefine the Luftwanaut program.. 

 

What will you say about the turbosuperchargernauts, then? :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This glorified vacuum cleaner will avail you nothing!

 

The VVS is on duty...and waiting. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you play any multiplayer maps right now, you'd know that there will only be 4 jets and they'll lock all the options, as well as make you fly from the farthest airfield

In all seriousness, I'm sure the devs will figure out a way to make it balancable if the mission makers so choose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a bomber killer, which is what Germany needed most.  Suffering from a huge numerical disadvantage a prop plane, even a very good one, was going to have tremendous difficulty getting through.  The 262 could blow past the escort and get to the bombers.  That was its purpose and strength.

 

German pilots returned to attacking bombers from the rear to reduce the closure rate.  It was still too fast for most bomber gunners to get an accurate shot in.  Rockets were also mentioned.  The 262 was fast enough to carry a full load of them and still out run the escort, allowing them to deliver this very effective weapon without being molested by the escort.  Previously that kind of load had t be taken airborne by Zestorers, which by 1944 had no chance of coming close to the bombers.

 

As for fighters, they were a side show.  If you were a 262 pilot and had a good bounce you took it.  It only took one, or at most two hits to take one down.  However, that was not your purpose.  The bombers were your purpose.

 

On a dogfight server?  Circle around and try to pick of unaware opponents I guess.

On a tactical server?  Hunt bombers.  

In a single player campaign?  No idea really without heavies.  For PWCG I will probably use the B25 as a stand in for lack of the real thing.  Should be fun.

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 If it were so hard to hit props planes, with a jet fighter, how did the Russians cut to pieces all those B-29s in Korea, with the MiG-15? 

 

 

Oh man, BoKorea would be so great.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm also very much opposed to the addition of the Me 262, but I guess we won't be able to avoid it. I just hope it will be strictly limited or locked on most of the servers I play. Not that I think it's necessarily OP, but it will just enhance the experience of flying in straight lines for very, very, very long times, sometimes being interrupted by an easy evasion of a 262, which will then proceed to bugger off. Large numbers of those planes will simply make aircombat incredibly boring.

I cant understand any dislike for a classic aircraft being added to the sim's line up but im sure there'll be servers wich wont allow it *if* its deemed OP.

 

I think its a wise choice for an additional plane.

 

This is part of the beauty of il2, we can play online and off pretty much how we all enjoy!

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm also very much opposed to the addition of the Me 262, but I guess we won't be able to avoid it. I just hope it will be strictly limited or locked on most of the servers I play. Not that I think it's necessarily OP, but it will just enhance the experience of flying in straight lines for very, very, very long times, sometimes being interrupted by an easy evasion of a 262, which will then proceed to bugger off. Large numbers of those planes will simply make aircombat incredibly boring.

Only 200 of them were used in ww2 and they had engines life limit of 12 hours so divide that on area, date, availability and me262 should be very rare.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there is no need for rivals for me262. The players are going to fly it like a me109 but amplifired by x10. IE stay completely irrelevant for the gameplay, high and safe etc.

Edited by Max_Damage
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed:

http://www.supercoolprops.com/articles/meredith_effect.php

 

The same principle - just different heat source and, in case of Mustang enough thrust, to nullify cooling drag.

it's funny how everyone points to the P51 when they hear meredith effect, the 109s radiators use it too

 

Only 200 of them were used in ww2 and they had engines life limit of 12 hours so divide that on area, date, availability and me262 should be very rare.

O.o 200 where did you get that from? they build almost 1500 and about 800 of them reached the frontline and were put into service

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it's funny how everyone points to the P51 when they hear meredith effect, the 109s radiators use it too

 

O.o 200 where did you get that from? they build almost 1500 and about 800 of them reached the frontline and were put into service

Sorry max of 200 were operational at any one time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The devs have figures of which squadrons operated with how many machines in that time period as well as combat records of those units. I don't think they need any educational advice on their choice of a historical planeset.

 

The 262 is historically fitting the time frame, saw action in battle and is popular. Thats why it's coming.

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The devs have figures of which squadrons operated with how many machines in that time period as well as combat records of those units. I don't think they need any educational advice on their choice of a historical planeset.

 

The 262 is historically fitting the time frame, saw action in battle and is popular. Thats why it's coming.

Don't get me wrong, 99,7% ppl here know more about me262 than i do.

My source was 4min reading wiki, and we were just chatting rather than suggesting, at least in my case!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 262 with rockets is just  the anwer to Pe-2 tail gunners. remaining on autolevel when swiching to the sniper position will be... interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Purpose of fighters is not to defeat other fighters, one-or-one or otherwise. Me-262 as a fighter could kill enemy bombers while being extremely hard for prop-driven escorts to catch. Using it to catch numerous, replaceble and not dangerous in themselves fighters would be a waste.

In BoB, I guess it will be used mostly in its other historical purpose, fast bomber / ground attack. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Purpose of fighters is not to defeat other fighters, one-or-one or otherwise. Me-262 as a fighter could kill enemy bombers while being extremely hard for prop-driven escorts to catch. Using it to catch numerous, replaceble and not dangerous in themselves fighters would be a waste.

 

In BoB, I guess it will be used mostly in its other historical purpose, fast bomber / ground attack. 

 

True, though I want to add the caveat, that while the purpose of "fighters" as a subgroup of combat aircraft isn't to defeat other fighters, it can be the purpose of individual aircraft designs. Escort fighters and to some degree air superiority fighters are deployed specifically to engage other fighters.

 

Fighters, especially in the mid-war and early years of WW2 were to a very large degree shaped by the need to be able to engage other fighters, prioritizing maneuverability and performance over armament and range. During the war we saw the tendency in most air forces swing towards prioritizing speed and firepower (and sometimes range) over everything else, and the Me 262 is arguably the most pure example of this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm also very much opposed to the addition of the Me 262, but I guess we won't be able to avoid it. I just hope it will be strictly limited or locked on most of the servers I play. Not that I think it's necessarily OP, but it will just enhance the experience of flying in straight lines for very, very, very long times, sometimes being interrupted by an easy evasion of a 262, which will then proceed to bugger off. Large numbers of those planes will simply make aircombat incredibly boring.

 

deal with it it was part of history and it fought without restriction in real life, remember we are in a simulation land, if you dont like it, please go to other arcade games where planes are separate by tiers

  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm also very much opposed to the addition of the Me 262, but I guess we won't be able to avoid it. I just hope it will be strictly limited or locked on most of the servers I play. Not that I think it's necessarily OP, but it will just enhance the experience of flying in straight lines for very, very, very long times, sometimes being interrupted by an easy evasion of a 262, which will then proceed to bugger off. Large numbers of those planes will simply make aircombat incredibly boring.

It is great addition to the allieas cos there is no better reward than shooting down me262

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

deal with it it was part of history and it fought without restriction in real life, remember we are in a simulation land, if you dont like it, please go to other arcade games where planes are separate by tiers

 

Good job there at completely missing my point entirely. And no, it did not fight without restriction, the restriction was being available in severely limited numbers, which I hope will be represented by the situation on the servers, because 45 262 against 20 P-51 without heavy bombers would be pretty ahistorical, amirite? And we're in "simulation land" where we look down upon those peasants of dogfight-oriented minds, who shall be banished from our hallowed halls of simulation elitism to that godforsaken game with tiers, which coincidentally brought over a shitton of people into the flightsim genre by being an easy stepping stone.

 

I was talking about the meta of the MP server gameplay, not historicism, but considering that you got a whopping 18 overall sorties on WoL to your name, your insights there would be greatly appreciated, too.

Edited by Evalew
  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it's funny how everyone points to the P51 when they hear meredith effect, the 109s radiators use it too

 

The Spitfire and the MC202 tried to utilize this principle, too. However, only the P51 had a proper diffusor and a turbulentless inlet - important and distinct features which made the difference.

Edited by Ehret

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The key is to avoid aggressive throttle movements (unless we get the throttle regulator introduced in Dec 44, then you can be carefree with the throttle), low speed turn fights and just in general never let speed drop below ~450 km/h, above that speed however you will outaccelerate any prop fighter and even be able to turn with them for a limited amount of time. Also the low muzzle velocity of the Mk108's really aren't that big of a deal when you're closing in at 200+ km/h and you only need a single hit.

 

I didn't hear about this throttle regulator, can you developp about ? any link ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good job there at completely missing my point entirely. And no, it did not fight without restriction, the restriction was being available in severely limited numbers, which I hope will be represented by the situation on the servers, because 45 262 against 20 P-51 without heavy bombers would be pretty ahistorical, amirite? And we're in "simulation land" where we look down upon those peasants of dogfight-oriented minds, who shall be banished from our hallowed halls of simulation elitism to that godforsaken game with tiers, which coincidentally brought over a shitton of people into the flightsim genre by being an easy stepping stone.

 

I was talking about the meta of the MP server gameplay, not historicism, but considering that you got a whopping 18 overall sorties on WoL to your name, your insights there would be greatly appreciated, too.

 

stop crying man, you checked my stats? LOL, the fact that I don't play this game so often its because there is a lot of to do(but played thousands of hours in the old 1946, so I have the experience and knowledge about combat, tactics, discipline...etc), but with the adittion of boddenplate will be even better, and no the post I just quoted said clearly that you opposed at the addition of me262, so stop changing your sentence, and ovbiusly have to be limited in numbers and sorties, but you instead opposed at the addition of a wounderful plane.

Edited by SJ_Butcher

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Play nice guys n gals.

 

If someone is being rude or has upset you just ignore them or flag it up for the mods to deal with.

 

Lets get back on topic!

 

(sorry to backseat moderate, mods if i have!)

Edited by OrLoK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

really funny to read all this fanboy wishful thinking:)

 

Yeah. The 262 will be useless against propfighters because its so fast. bla blah. ROFL.

Thats why it was considered superior to its contemporary planes back in the day.

LOL

 

We will see how the devs will "model" it to be fun for "both" sides:P

Wouldnt wonder if we will see some sort of "190 deja vu" :P

While I agree that it’s a bit silly to count a fighter’s high speed as a disadvantage, the “waaah the devs are biased” BS is getting really tiresome.

  • Upvote 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who said devs are biased? Dont put words into my mouth.
I didnt play and post for quite some time.
Ill rather keep "not posting". Have fun in your little world guys:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

stop crying man, you checked my stats? LOL, the fact that I don't play this game so often its because there is a lot of to do(but played thousands of hours in the old 1946, so I have the experience and knowledge about combat, tactics, discipline...etc), but with the adittion of boddenplate will be even better, and no the post I just quoted said clearly that you opposed at the addition of me262, so stop changing your sentence, and ovbiusly have to be limited in numbers and sorties, but you instead opposed at the addition of a wounderful plane.

 

I am opposed to the addition of the plane, but recognize that it will come. This is why I hope that the situation on the servers will not get out of hand and therefore hope it will be used by servers sparingly or not at all, depending on mission and scenario. And yes, I always check people who come at me aggressively and with weird shit, since most of the time it turns out that these people are a) not affected (you) or b) don't know what is being talked about (in this case the gameplay experience and mission meta on the MP servers of this sim, so also you).

It just saves time, because I don't have to discuss back and forth for 2 pages to conclude that I don't have to take their opinions seriously, since they're not based on experience. I never cried, I cautioned about the addition of the plane in light of what that will probably mean for the gameplay on the servers, which is my first concern when it comes to planesets and balance. Other people can obviously have different priorities and tastes, and they're absolutely free to voice 'em. But you instead chose to come at me like a sim elitist wehraboo who cannot stand someone not liking his favourite toy. So there, that's that.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would have liked to have seen the meteor included in the line up jet v jets would have been fun, though the 262 is the superior plane.

 

That said I can see why they included the 262 only , it seems to me by this stage of the war the 190s and 109s were inferior to the allies planes, namely the tempest and p51. It would have been difficult being on the axis side in game and maybe the devs thought including 262 balances the sides out somewhat.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...