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Huntsman

Who is going to buy and fly the G-6?

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It should be remembered that what we have bought is Battle of Kuban not Battle of 1943.

 

This isn't directed at you specifically - your post simply mentions dates so it prompted this thought.

I don't think it is bad to want certain mods and options and I agree that mission makers have ample freedom to constrain types and field modifications ot be historically accurate as they see fit, but people need to stop short of demanding that things be included in BOK because they existed somewhere in the world during the time of the Kuban campaign.

 

They may not be anachronistic from a manufacturing or even availability standpoint, but many of the options people have said emphatically must be included simply weren't used on the Eastern Front at this time. There are plenty of 109 mods we shouldn't get in this particular title in the series in the same way you shouldn't see Mustangs, Mk.IX Spitfires, Corsairs etc. They will undoubtedly come in titles that target the appropriate theatres.

I’m not going to comment on the point you are making but I have to say that was a very well written post. The more I read the stupider I felt :)

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German type sheets from mid 1944 describe the G-14 as ‘like G-6 but with methanol pressure provided by the supercharger’. And that is really it, by that time G-6s were commonly fitted with MW boost but the air pressure to drive the tank’s contents into the superchargers eye was provided by onboard pressured air bottles (like in the case of GM-1 boost, since many were conversions from that earlier system) whereas the G14 had tapped the supercharger itself to provide pressurized air.

 

Other than that, the G-14 was pretty much a standardized G-6 with ‘Service Pack 2’ in Windows terms. ‘G-6’ production pretty much ceased as the G-14 production began.

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German type sheets from mid 1944 describe the G-14 as ‘like G-6 but with methanol pressure provided by the supercharger’. And that is really it, by that time G-6s were commonly fitted with MW boost but the air pressure to drive the tank’s contents into the superchargers eye was provided by onboard pressured air bottles (like in the case of GM-1 boost, since many were conversions from that earlier system) whereas the G14 had tapped the supercharger itself to provide pressurized air.

 

Other than that, the G-14 was pretty much a standardized G-6 with ‘Service Pack 2’ in Windows terms. ‘G-6’ production pretty much ceased as the G-14 production began.

Perfect explanation, thank you :salute:

 

So in reality there is practically nothing that set a late production G6 apart from a G14 other than a very slight reduction in weight (due to losing the pressurized air tanks) and a very slightly less effective supercharger (due to it providing air pressure for the MW 50)

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I think that given the fact collector planes are not necessarily tied to a "battle" release and that most planes are available across a wide range of scenarios and time periods, the Erla canopy and maybe even MW50 might make sense as modifications on the G-6, only locked in BoK scenarios. Then the plane would be very useful when BoBp comes out and could be used in that without being sub-par.

 

But the development and release of each of the collector planes is tied to a particular battle. This is clear from both the Dev Diary posts and the sales material on the website.

People shouldn't get too uptight about it though. I expect all the mods that have been mentioned in this thread will ship in BoBp, either by default or as DLC. Why wouldn't they - its easy development and guaranteed money.

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I wouldn't mind the mw50 included despite slight historic inaccuracy. And even without it I'd consider the g6 a worthy adversary for the la5fn or any other red fighter. I'd enjoy taking it for a spin against the Fn.

But as for multiplayer and historic aspect aside - If I enter a server where 48 blue 109's with ~2000hp and mk108's are running down and shoulder shooting the two red guys that dared to enter the fight, I'd leave as I wouldn't consider joining either side much fun. I would assume the same goes for most players. So for Mp and as it doesn't fit the time frame anyway I'm not sure what purpose it would serve.

Edited by a_radek
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Perfect explanation, thank you :salute:

 

So in reality there is practically nothing that set a late production G6 apart from a G14 other than a very slight reduction in weight (due to losing the pressurized air tanks) and a very slightly less effective supercharger (due to it providing air pressure for the MW 50)

There is a much bigger difference between the late G6 and the G14 than between the G2 and G4. A new larger supercharger in the engine, the removal of the bottle, and you're forgetting the rebuilt rudder, made from wood and taller.

 

Although, there were even some G5 with the new tail, as well as a few G6.

 

What you need to keep in mind, just like with the Mw50, Messerschmidt production was not standardized. They were built in different industrial facilities, and often underground during the bombing campaigns of the Western Allies. There were features in any series, highly customized, depending on in which facility the aircraft was built. They manufactured in:

Augsburg, Leipzig, Kassel, Oschersleben, Bremen, Warnemünde, Vienna, Regensburg, Obertraubling, as well as later many underground plants in more locations. And each had supply bottlenecks regarding materials, parts, and machinery, but each had engineers ready to redesign parts on-the-fly and based on supply, not on demand.

 

Hence it was the opposite from standardized. You can't just bracket in the serial numbers like you could for example with American or Soviet planes. That's where all the disparities come from. If you were lucky, as a pilot, you'd get a good early Me109 G-6 with MW50 and better tail, if you were unlucky, you'd get a G-6 without Mw50, without new tail, no 13mm, and shitty gear, or if you were very lucky you'd not receive any and you were in rotation, on the ground doing mechanics duties while your rotation's aircraft was shot down, and you'd survive the insanity of war, to go back to enjoy what you enjoy most right after the war: Just flying.

Edited by 4./JG52_Fenris_Wolf

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There is a much bigger difference between the late G6 and the G14 than between the G2 and G4. A new larger supercharger in the engine, the removal of the bottle, and you're forgetting the rebuilt rudder, made from wood and taller.

 

Although, there were even some G5 with the new tail, as well as a few G6.

 

IIRC it wasn't "a few". It was hundreds.

 

What you need to keep in mind, just like with the Mw50, Messerschmidt production was not standardized. They were built in different industrial facilities, and often underground during the bombing campaigns of the Western Allies. There were features in any series, highly customized, depending on in which facility the aircraft was built. They manufactured in:

Augsburg, Leipzig, Kassel, Oschersleben, Bremen, Warnemünde, Vienna, Regensburg, Obertraubling, as well as later many underground plants in more locations. And each had supply bottlenecks regarding materials, parts, and machinery, but each had engineers ready to redesign parts on-the-fly and based on supply, not on demand.

 

Hence it was the opposite from standardized. You can't just bracket in the serial numbers like you could for example with American or Soviet planes. That's where all the disparities come from. If you were lucky, as a pilot, you'd get a good early Me109 G-6 with MW50 and better tail, if you were unlucky, you'd get a G-6 without Mw50, without new tail, no 13mm, and shitty gear, or if you were very lucky you'd not receive any and you were in rotation, on the ground doing mechanics duties while your rotation's aircraft was shot down, and you'd survive the insanity of war, to go back to enjoy what you enjoy most right after the war: Just flying.

 

All that is true, except for the "no 13mm G6s" The 13mm guns along with the provision for GM-1 is pretty much what made the G5/G6 line. I have never heard of an aircraft labeled Bf 109G6 that didn't have the MG 131s.

 

In the end, what it comes down to is the fact, that this sim is never going to have the insane amount of variety in the plane set, that we saw in IL2-1946. Tough choices will have to be made, and making the G6 for BoK and the upcoming Kursk map that comes with Tank Crew and the G14 for BoBP seems reasonable to me.

Edited by Finkeren

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Always trying to contradict me, aren't you :biggrin: I remember seeing various photographs of one found in the dirt without them, with the gunpoints simply bolted shut. Maybe the pilot removed them because something was broken and there was no replacement, or for any other reason. I didn't take a picture, so it doesn't really matter anyway. There were also various recon versions of the plane, which were also used in combat due to necessity, with incomplete armament. The point is, an Emil or Gustav was different based on where it was built. If you didn't get one built by the Erlawerke during a certain timeframe, you might have had no Erla canopy, while your buddy had one, even though you were both flying G-6 produced in the same month. That's the point. ;)

 

I agree that the variation is not as much as in 1946, but that's okay, as long as the main variations like Erlahaube, MW50s, G1s, et cetera, are kept as optional modifications. It's a collector's plane, not a "beginning of Kuban" plane. Otherwise it wouldn't even come with a Mk108.

Edited by 4./JG52_Fenris_Wolf
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I thought the larger supercharger was specific to the AS and ASM variants. Anyway early series G-14s had the short tail so even that wasn't standardised. Even with the tall tail there are I think three possible different configurations of rudder trim tabs.

 

Basically the only things the G-14 "standardised" were the Erla canopy and MW50 installation.

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Work on the G6 was started in August 2017 (dev diaries)

 

at this time Bodenplatte was not a consideration

 

The G6 and FN were intended for use with BoK due to customer demand for later A/C

 

one of the good things about whole BoS series is that they (seem) to have a strict product plan and to the most part stick to it, and the schedule, rather than getting caught up in feature creep and 'added' value

 

this dev 'philosophy' has provided good and timely updates and expansions compared to other titles

 

considering this history I would expect the G6 and FN will be built to Kuban timeframe,

 

The effort to make a later model G6 prior to Bodenplatte would be wasted unless other 'timeline' correct A/C are available, it would be a lone '44 unicorn banned on all servers

 

better to wait for G14 which may be available without AS version which would give late G6

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

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Always trying to contradict me, aren't you :biggrin: I remember seeing various photographs of one found in the dirt without them, with the gunpoints simply bolted shut. Maybe the pilot removed them because something was broken and there was no replacement, or for any other reason. I didn't take a picture, so it doesn't really matter anyway. There were also various recon versions of the plane, which were also used in combat due to necessity, with incomplete armament.

 

Ah ok, I misunderstood you then. I thought you were talking about production G6s without MG 131s. Yeah, I agree there might well be examples of G6s that had the MGs removed either due to shortages or a desire to make the plane lighter (as was done on the Yak-1)

Edited by Finkeren

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I thought the larger supercharger was specific to the AS and ASM variants. Anyway early series G-14s had the short tail so even that wasn't standardised. Even with the tall tail there are I think three possible different configurations of rudder trim tabs.

 

Basically the only things the G-14 "standardised" were the Erla canopy and MW50 installation.

Yes larger supercharger (and streamlined engine cowling) is only for the AS (and G-10/K-4. Was taken from the 603 to improve high altitude performance. G-14 and G-14AS were not the same thing.

 

That being said at the end of the war planes were build with whatever was lying around. K-4s mixed in with G-14 bits etc etc.

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Work on the G6 was started in August 2017 (dev diaries)   at this time Bodenplatte was not a consideration

 

These statements are based on what exactly? According to your information, when did they start considering doing Bodenplatte?

 

The G6 and FN were intended for use with BoK due to customer demand for later A/C

 

So you mean, if the devs expand later on to Continuation war or Mediterranean or Italy etc, then they would build new G6's? Is that why they tell in the Pre-Order introduction that "The G-6 played a major role in middle and late war aerial engagements over Eastern and Western fronts, above the Mediterranean and in Reich air defense actions. They were also supplied to allies of Germany." We will see what they will do and I guess it is possible for them to add options later on, too, but I think it would be odd to restrict the most produced Bf109 variant to a narrow time scale at the end of one battle. 

Edited by II./JG77_Kemp

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So you mean, if the devs expand later on to Continuation war or Mediterranean on Italy etc, then they would build new G6's? Is that why they tell in the Pre-Order introduction that "The G-6 played a major role in middle and late war aerial engagements over Eastern and Western fronts, above the Mediterranean and in Reich air defense actions. They were also supplied to allies of Germany." We will see what they will do and I guess it is possible for them to add options later on, too, but I think it would be odd to restrict the most produced Bf109 variant to a narrow time scale at the end of one battle.

That’s certainly possible. They added the ASh-82F engine for the La-5 to extend its usability in BoK. Why shouldn’t they be able to add things like the MW-50 to the G6 later on to fit a different timeframe?

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That’s certainly possible. They added the ASh-82F engine for the La-5 to extend its usability in BoK. Why shouldn’t they be able to add things like the MW-50 to the G6 later on to fit a different timeframe?

 

That is what I said - it is possible for them to add options later on, too. The point is again, G6 is sold as a separate collector plane. It fits BoK time frame. Great. It is still a separate collector plane, no need to restrict to BoK only.

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That is what I said - it is possible for them to add options later on, too. The point is again, G6 is sold as a separate collector plane. It fits BoK time frame. Great. It is still a separate collector plane, no need to restrict to BoK only.

Agreed, but no need to include a mod right now, that would put it completely outside BoK timeframe either. Thst can wait.

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The BoK and G6 topic actually reminds me, when BoK was announced, there were questions why G4 was chosen instead of G6 and the answer was that G6 does not really fit BoK ... but possibly could be done as a collector plane later on. In that light it is quite interesting to see how it is now suddenly so tightly intended for BoK and not a stand-alone collector plane.

Edited by II./JG77_Kemp

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It's because a few folks don't want the MW-50 to get released even as a mod. They want the G-6 heavier and less maneuverable than its predecessors in any case, without accepting the thing would be an optional mod only. 

 

 

But why is that? 

 

 

Do they prefer to fly VVS only? Or did they not buy the Collector's Plane anyway and begrudge it to those who bought it? Why do they not even agree when it would be a mod, then lockedable by their own mission design?  :negative:

Edited by 4./JG52_Fenris_Wolf

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The BoK and G6 topic actually reminds me, when BoK was released, there were questions why G4 was chosen instead of G6 and the answer was that G6 does not really fit BoK ... but possibly could be done as a collector plane later on. In that light it is quite interesting to see how it is now suddenly so tightly intended for BoK and not a stand-alone collector plane.

 

The issue was not, that the G6 didn't fit the BoK timeline, it does, but that it doesn't fit the entire timeline of BoK, which means that people who'd buy BoK without owning BoS and thus having the G2 (however many that might be) would  be unable to start a Bf 109 career from the starting point of the battle. It's the same reason why the Yak-7b and not the Yak-9 was chosen.

 

The G6 is not specifically tied to BoK (neither plane really is) but since we currently have no maps or plane sets allowing us to create a mid-1944 scenario, why include a mod that would make a single plane a 1944 plane?  

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There is a reasonable precedent that the collector planes are intended to enhance the current planeset

 

where exactly do you want to fly a 1944 G6, and against who? and what?

 

good grief I would have thought people would be happy that some correct aircraft are now available for the latter part of Kuban/Taman scenario

 

give an inch and people want a mile... :)

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

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It's because a few folks don't want the MW-50 to get released even as a mod. They want the G-6 heavier and less maneuverable than its predecessors in any case, without accepting the thing would be an optional mod only. 

 

 

But why is that? 

 

Because that's what the G6 was like at the time when the rest of the plane set for this sim were operational. 

Do they prefer to fly VVS only? Or did they not buy the Collector's Plane anyway and begrudge it to those who bought it? Why do they not even agree when it would be a mod, then lockedable by their own mission design?  :negative:

 

Nope, that's definitely not it, try again.

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Collector plane. Not BoK plane. We bought a Collector's Plane G-6, not an early few months G-6.


The G6 is not specifically tied to BoK (neither plane really is) but since we currently have no maps or plane sets allowing us to create a mid-1944 scenario, why include a mod that would make a single plane a 1944 plane?  

 

Because the mission designer can turn that mod off anyway.

 

So why not?

Edited by 4./JG52_Fenris_Wolf
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Collector plane. Not BoK plane. We bought a Collector's Plane G-6, not an early few months G-6.

 

As Dakpilot already explained. Collectors planes so far have been made to fit the general timeline covered by the sim. And it's not like this is something that solely applies to German planes. The P-40E-1 has the engine limitations of 1941-42, even though it was later cleared for higher MP.

 

Modeling the MW-50 for the G6 would put it at least as late as April 1944 and later still on the Eastern Front. Why would we want that?

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Because that's what the G6 was like at the time when the rest of the plane set for this sim were operational.

 

I'm a bit asthonished, that sim builders can be so strikt about variatons that did exist.

As long as the 3D model itself must not be changed, why not offer modifications/variations like MW-50 or other, when those are only data to be changed in the game scripts?

 

There will always be "some folks" who don't want to see this or that improvement on an "enemy plane", cause they mostly fly "their side".

So what? Why listen to those? The Bf109 was already becoming more and more obsolete in comparison with new Allied aircraft.

So why not give the Bf 109-flyers at least what was - partly - available?

 

You could still build/script it so, that any creators of any online multiplayer servers could switch this and that off as "not available", if it's just data?

Edited by Wolfram-Harms

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Because the mission designer can turn that mod off anyway.

 

So why not?

 

2 reasons: 

 

1. Extra work required to make that mod. A mod that suddenly adds several hundred horsepower to a plane and requires a completely new heat modeling for the engine is not something you do in an afternoon.

 

2. You know as well as I do, that that mod won't be locked on most servers. 

 

I conversely ask: Why are you so dead set on flying a 1944 aircraft against 1943 aircraft?

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Maybe you don't, as well as a handful of the other forum warriors.

 

 

 

 

There are more than enough people who do, who expect it to be in and who don't post on the forums, but rather play the game. Realistically everyone I have talked about this with so far.

 

 

 

So again, why would you want to remove an option - one that you can disable anyway, to have your summer1943-only scenario?

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The G6 is not specifically tied to BoK (neither plane really is) but since we currently have no maps or plane sets allowing us to create a mid-1944 scenario, why include a mod that would make a single plane a 1944 plane? 

 

Why not? 

I guess we will pretty soon find out what mods it will have anyway, but just to counter your question, why couldn't the devs add lockable options that were part of G6 historically? They have added experimental or limited use weapon options to planes before, so would it be a crime to add historically available lockable options to a stand-alone collector plane?

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2. You know as well as I do, that that mod won't be locked on most servers. 

 

 

The most popular, WoL, has most modules locked by default. Just like the engine mod on the La-5, or other specialties on FW190 or Me109s. 

 

Why would you believe the mission designers would suddenly not be capable to block it for their 1943' set missions?

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Why not? 

I guess we will pretty soon find out what mods it will have anyway, but just to counter your question, why couldn't the devs add lockable options that were part of G6 historically? They have added experimental or limited use weapon options to planes before, so would it be a crime to add historically available lockable options to a stand-alone collector plane?

 

Absolutely not a crime, no. And if the devs choose to include it, I will shrug, think it was a bit of an odd choice and go on. Any VVS pilot is gonna be on his/her heels against a well flown G6 regardless, we are used to that. It's not like this is gonna break the game or anything.

 

On the other hand we have a few people here who scream bloody murder at the mere thought, that the MW-50 might not be included, talking about "pre-nerfing" and whatnot. Those people I don't get.

The most popular, WoL, has most modules locked by default. Just like the engine mod on the La-5, or other specialties on FW190 or Me109s. 

 

Why would you believe the mission designers would suddenly not be capable to block it for their 1943' set missions?

 

I would hope that you're right. I never fly for more than 5 mins at a time on WoL anyway, so I wouldn't know much about that.

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Fenris_Wolf, are you a "werewolf" ?? You suddenly changed your appearance?

Or are you trying to change your appearance to a more friendly one, so might get what you want a bit easier? :happy:

What is that beside the Smiley with the German colours???

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I appears to be a bar of chocolate. Maybe Fenris and I can find something to agree on here, a love of chocolate?  

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good grief I would have thought people would be happy that some correct aircraft are now available for the latter part of Kuban/Taman scenario   give an inch and people want a mile...
 

 

What inch and mile are you talking about here? There is a discussion of what mods could be possible. People might be quite happy with limited options. I can understand how people might be even happier with more options. What is a bit harder to understand, why some people are so strongly against these options and try to come up with all kinds of "reasons" why there should be less options. 

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Maybe Fenris and I can find something to agree on here, a love of chocolate?  

No. You two would start duking it out over milk vs dark :P 

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No. You two would start duking it out over milk vs dark :P

 

Milk! Definitely milk!

 

 

What inch and mile are you talking about here? There is a discussion of what mods could be possible. People might be quite happy with limited options. I can understand how people might be even happier with more options. What is a bit harder to understand, why some people are so strongly against these options and try to come up with all kinds of "reasons" why there should be less options. 

 

 

What some of us were trying to convey is why the MW-50 will likely not be a mod for the G6. Apparently that really got people up in arms and extremely mad throwing around ad hominems etc. 

 

Personally I want options that fit the timeframe of the sim, because I personally feel like a bit of a cheater using mods or planes that doesn't fit a scenario (though I have been known to make exceptions when it comes to Fw 190s over Stalingrad ;) ) but I'm not gonna freak out, if the MW-50 makes it into our G6. Who knows? Maybe I might even make an exception for that myself. :)

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Some players:  "We want MW-50 because it was available about a year after the BoK timeframe, close enough".

 

Fine then, can I have a P51B now too?

 

kthanksbye

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Some players:  "We want MW-50 because it was available about a year after the BoK timeframe, close enough".

 

I do wonder: What would those same people have said, if the PTAB had been made available for the IL-2 mod. 42 back when BoS was first released? It's not like they couldn't carry them, they just didn't exist at the time.

Edited by Finkeren

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I do wonder: What would those same people have said, if the PTAB had been made available for the IL-2 mod. 42 back when BoS was first released? It's not like they couldn't carry them, they just didn't exist at the time.

 

A wild guess would be that if that option did not exist for real, then people would not want it, and if that option existed for real, then having that modelled in the sim would only be good thing.

I do wonder though, as some people feel so strongly against having more options in the game and there will be lots of new stuff and features coming with BoK, doesn't it carry an additional heart attack risk for these people...  ;)

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I do wonder though, as some people feel so strongly against having more options in the game and there will be lots of new stuff and features coming with BoK, doesn't it carry an additional heart attack risk for these people... ;)

I wouldn’t know about that. You’ll have to ask someone who feels strongly about it.

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Did someone mention chocolate? Count me in!

 

To be honest, I will be happy they are producing the G6 in any form...

Along with the E-7, (the E series being my favourite 109) the G-6 is a close second as it is the 109 that also stands out from the crowd with it's large 'blisters'.

Not only do they make it easily recognisable, but it makes it look more of a brute than the E version. 

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Some players: "We want MW-50 because it was available about a year after the BoK timeframe, close enough".

 

Fine then, can I have a P51B now too?

 

kthanksbye

Exactly, but if you say that you want 72'hg power for P51D in December 1944 because 8th AAF used it they will tell you that not enough planes had it even if it is well documented.

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