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Out of curiosity, I checked the the reviews of the sim on Steam and recently they are mixed. Now, if you are super-pro at knowing how the game market works (like me lol), then you obviously know it's better to buy your flight sims directly from the company that makes them, so that all them cash-moneys go to the devs instead of contributing a percentage to Gaben's weight. :)

 

However, most of PC gamers like Steam and it's their go-to platform for wasting money on the next iteration of CoD. And I understand that, Steam is a well developed and convenient platform, hell, as much as I prefer DRM-free marketplaces like GOG, I still use Steam for IL-2 for tracking records, friends' records and updates. Among those gamers, there are people who would be more than willing to get into the genre, especially taking advantage of sales and such Steam has to offer and the way they go about it is check the Steam reviews.

 

So I had a look at those "not recommended" and one thing was that was constantly repeated is that there is no tutorial or any kind of help in-game to assist a total newbie to learn to fly them planes. They are right in a certain way - if it's your first flight sim (and why shouldn't it be? it's great!), there is little to get you into it, unless you do some googling and make an effort (and make an effort you should, it's what it's all about in this genre and it's damn sure part of the fun). Obviously, a complex tutorial is probably not financially viable (though there are some brilliant people out there making that content and I would love for the devs to reach out and maybe start some official coop thing), but as it IS the community that generally fills that gap, I think we can make a little effort through Steam reviews to help potential buyers make the call and get them started.

 

I am not asking anyone here to be a shill, it can only cause damage, but if you haven't written a Steam review yet for BOS, consider doing so, and consider as well that it will be read by people who have no idea about combat flight sims and they need some guidance. Let them know that it takes some time to learn, and definitely link some tutorials online, or other resources that would get them fast into learning the game, rather than being overwhelmed and confused about the simplest things like setting up their controls.

 

I think that a few more honest reviews (yes, be honest, mention the things you don't like, it's the basic principle of any review and you are morally compelled to this), with some guidelines to potential buyers might help IL-2 as a franchise, but also, bring in some new blood to the genre.

I mean, why would all them PC gamers not play flight sims? It's only the best genre in the world! They simply don't know any better, and it' kind of our job to help them see the light, right? :)

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There is a thread like this that got moved to the suggestions section.

 

You can see how absurd some people are with the Steam review, i posted some examples.

 

Unfortunately Steam reviews are now being used as weapons instead of honest reviews.

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I believe someone started a wiki page for the game but I don't think it got a lot of love. It could be a great resource for new players but really the Devs need to promote it more or come up with something better. There is a good amount of community content that could help out new players in the form of articles and training videos but it really needs to be tied together better and linked to the Steam pages to address the nay-Sayers.

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Acquiring new customers is one thing, keeping a larger percentage of them and pushing your brand is another. Latter can be done by a proper tutorial.

 

By all means, building a tutorial is financially viable of course.

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There is Quickplay where you can start with parked Plane. Thats the kind of Tutorial i prefer in most games  :) for exempel Tekken a fighting game... people there as well go to the practice mode to learn the game and not a Scripted hand holding Tutorial. ... well Tekken 7 was critized by newbs as well for not having a scripted Tutorial. Its just something i dont understand. 

 

Sandbox mode = best Tutorial. 

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There is Quickplay where you can start with parked Plane. Thats the kind of Tutorial i prefer in most games  :) for exempel Tekken a fighting game... people there as well go to the practice mode to learn the game and not a Scripted hand holding Tutorial. ... well Tekken 7 was critized by newbs as well for not having a scripted Tutorial. Its just something i dont understand. 

 

Sandbox mode = best Tutorial. 

Air sims have their own little quirks.

 

"Start engine, remember to set mixture, set RPMs, use tailwheel and brakes and rudder to turn, remember to apply rudder, etc."

I agree that a basic tutorial set should be included in the game. "Basic controls", "startup and taxiing", "takeoff", "landing", "navigation", "attacking a target", "spin recovery", "basic ACM". These don't obviously pop out of ether, someone has to make them.

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isn't you tube pretty much a defacto resource these days for pretty much anything that we are not sure how to do ? I even fixed my washing machine thanks to YT.

Problem with BoX is one tutorial would not fit all. Take off for example. most german AC you need to kick right rudder to keep straight on the runway, where as allied AC are a mix. Also you might get people buy the game knowing nothing about principles of flight, where as more experienced simmers / pilots, may want to know very specific things.

 

I think a tutorial would be a whole lot of work, that would have little real benefit at the end of day. If people really want answers, a very quick search would help them find them.

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Air sims have their own little quirks.

 

"Start engine, remember to set mixture, set RPMs, use tailwheel and brakes and rudder to turn, remember to apply rudder, etc."

I agree that a basic tutorial set should be included in the game. "Basic controls", "startup and taxiing", "takeoff", "landing", "navigation", "attacking a target", "spin recovery", "basic ACM". These don't obviously pop out of ether, someone has to make them.

Yeah but you have to set up the Controlls for the joystick anyway so you will have them in mind because you manualy set them up.

 

Would be weird to start a sim without manualy changing controlls.

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Air sims have their own little quirks.

 

"Start engine, remember to set mixture, set RPMs, use tailwheel and brakes and rudder to turn, remember to apply rudder, etc."

I agree that a basic tutorial set should be included in the game. "Basic controls", "startup and taxiing", "takeoff", "landing", "navigation", "attacking a target", "spin recovery", "basic ACM". These don't obviously pop out of ether, someone has to make them.

 

I'm working on some. Will need time to get finished though (few months). Hopefully they can be of help when ready.

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While I agree a tutorial would be very nice to have - especially for new users - it’s Steam we’re talking about. I happen to think it’s a great platform, but a good chunk of its user base demand instaneous satisfaction and most are not willing to spend the time to learn something. They’re quick to say “this sucks, I’m not a god in it after 20 minutes of play” and rather than practice, they’re yelling at the developers like it’s the game’s fault.

 

Give yourself a headache reading some game’s steam forums/comments seeing users saying a game sucks because they didn’t read the system requirements/they don’t understand that you must update certain driver’s to play, haha.

 

It’s a simulator. It’s going to have a very steep learning curve! I don’t know how else to explain that to some users!

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Out of curiosity, I checked the the reviews of the sim on Steam and recently they are mixed. Now, if you are super-pro at knowing how the game market works (like me lol), then you obviously know it's better to buy your flight sims directly from the company that makes them, so that all them cash-moneys go to the devs instead of contributing a percentage to Gaben's weight. :)

 

However, most of PC gamers like Steam and it's their go-to platform for wasting money on the next iteration of CoD. And I understand that, Steam is a well developed and convenient platform, hell, as much as I prefer DRM-free marketplaces like GOG, I still use Steam for IL-2 for tracking records, friends' records and updates. Among those gamers, there are people who would be more than willing to get into the genre, especially taking advantage of sales and such Steam has to offer and the way they go about it is check the Steam reviews.

 

So I had a look at those "not recommended" and one thing was that was constantly repeated is that there is no tutorial or any kind of help in-game to assist a total newbie to learn to fly them planes. They are right in a certain way - if it's your first flight sim (and why shouldn't it be? it's great!), there is little to get you into it, unless you do some googling and make an effort (and make an effort you should, it's what it's all about in this genre and it's damn sure part of the fun). Obviously, a complex tutorial is probably not financially viable (though there are some brilliant people out there making that content and I would love for the devs to reach out and maybe start some official coop thing), but as it IS the community that generally fills that gap, I think we can make a little effort through Steam reviews to help potential buyers make the call and get them started.

 

I am not asking anyone here to be a shill, it can only cause damage, but if you haven't written a Steam review yet for BOS, consider doing so, and consider as well that it will be read by people who have no idea about combat flight sims and they need some guidance. Let them know that it takes some time to learn, and definitely link some tutorials online, or other resources that would get them fast into learning the game, rather than being overwhelmed and confused about the simplest things like setting up their controls.

 

I think that a few more honest reviews (yes, be honest, mention the things you don't like, it's the basic principle of any review and you are morally compelled to this), with some guidelines to potential buyers might help IL-2 as a franchise, but also, bring in some new blood to the genre.

 

I mean, why would all them PC gamers not play flight sims? It's only the best genre in the world! They simply don't know any better, and it' kind of our job to help them see the light, right? :)

 

 

When you are buying from a mainstream game that doe snto need HELP, then steam is the way to go for anyoen that live outside USA or europe.  The price  can be asmuch as 80% cheaper.

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One of the problems is that you can finish most Steam games and move on. You never finish IL2.

 

Some people from steam come with that mentality that they are going to play IL2 for a few weeks and move on, which is not how this works. They want to get started quickly and begin getting kills. I dont think I got a real MP kill for weeks or maybe a couple of months.

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I thought about it a few times. Got BoS on Steam but wasn`t too satisfied with it to post a cheerful review, so I refrained from it. Posted it on Metacritic beucase it has a little more detailed info on the score.

 

At current, even though I`d mention about loving the flying and managing the aircraft alone, if I was honest I could not forget to post something about sp and mp and still the game lacks significantly in both departments. So as a whole package, I`d have to point out the glaring shortcommings and I don`t feel like doing it as not to damage the title`s opinion.

Edited by Mac_Messer

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I thought about it a few times. Got BoS on Steam but wasn`t too satisfied with it to post a cheerful review, so I refrained from it. Posted it on Metacritic beucase it has a little more detailed info on the score.

 

At current, even though I`d mention about loving the flying and managing the aircraft alone, if I was honest I could not forget to post something about sp and mp and still the game lacks significantly in both departments. So as a whole package, I`d have to point out the glaring shortcommings and I don`t feel like doing it as not to damage the title`s opinion.

 

Out of interest, what do you think is lacking in MP ? I'm sure people could always think of ways to improve it, but what's there I think is pretty outstanding.

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Why not just link Req's video tutorials directly to the game? Assuming of course that he'd be ok with that!

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Why not just link Req's video tutorials directly to the game? Assuming of course that he'd be ok with that!

 

It's a good idea, I guess they would need to be multi lingual though ?

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no tutorial or help...i guess if people are to stupid to see the automatically enabled tips that pop up every second when you fly for the first time they're not exactly capable of playing the game properly anyways and they should also be prohibited from righting reviews

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Why not just link Req's video tutorials directly to the game? Assuming of course that he'd be ok with that!

 

Ack! Please no!!

 

The Requiem Air-Combat tutorial videos are usually good and mistakes are rare. But they are best suited for an established flight-sim enthusiast who wants to quickly get the salient points of how to do something, or familiarise themselves with a new aircraft.

 

For a newcomer, however, they are laden with jargon and have a lot of embedded assumed knowledge.

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For a newcomer, however, they are laden with jargon and have a lot of embedded assumed knowledge.

 

Well put!

Great videos, but not for the total beginner.

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From a perspective of someone who has played it all in terms of sims (ok maybe except X-Plane), I'd say the best tutorials on YT were the ones for BMS. It's the hardest combat sim out there to learn IMHO, yet what Krause and a few other people did, covered the whole initial learning curve from basic stuff like binding your controls to baiting SAMs to pinpoint their location and suppress them with cluster bombs. IL-2 has a bunch of good tutorial, however they never guide you from the point of a fresh install to being on your way learning by yourself.

 

Personally, I don't think that flying a WWII plane is hard, nor fighting in it (provided you bother to know what some basic energy management stuff). However, I think the whole "it's hard" thing for a beginner boils down to the initial difficulty bump of setting up the game, understanding the controls and basic flight and air combat principles. For someone without experience in the genre, this is completely overwhelming and can be a showstopper. My first study sim was the Black Shark, and it took me about two weeks of just thinking, to develop a method that would allow me to learn (that was ages ago, and I didn't understand squat back then). It started from developing a method to assign controls, then learn what they do (once I knew where and what they are) and only after that I went to watching tutorials and making notes in my own way to suit my personal learning method. Only after that I felt like I was making progress. That was years ago.

 

I don't know of any online materials for BOS that cover the initial phase of learning to set things up to start to learn. I think this might be the issue that people who are completely new to the genre are struggling with. If there is stuff on the Tube like this, even I would definitely benefit from watching, and if not... I think perhaps such basic concepts could be included in a community manual. Just a thought.

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This is the youtube age. Anybody complaining about no tutorial is just lazy.

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One thing I noticed though is that game sales seem to have upped by quite a bit. Usually there would be between 20 and 40 reviews per month, now its at 70...

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I don't understand why so many are opposed to a tutorial. I think there really is need for one. If someone want to get in to flight sims they should get the tools to do so without getting burned out trying to find information on YouTube or the forums, at the end of the day this is a game not a real military career. We want to see this game succeed and develop, therefore attracting new players is important. I don't want to see this community turn in to some country club where only established veterans are welcome while we laugh at the plebeians who we regard as too simple minded to get into these kind of games.

Edited by SvAF/F19_Tomten
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How to fly!

 

 

"Whopsy a daisy!" and "dakakakakakakaka" always makes a grin on my face  :biggrin:

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I don't understand why so many are opposed to a tutorial. I think there really is need for one. If someone want to get in to flight sims they should get the tools to do so without getting burned out trying to find information on YouTube or the forums, at the end of the day this is a game not a real military career. We want to see this game succeed and develop, therefore attracting new players is important. I don't want to see this community turn in to some country club where only established veterans are welcome while we laugh at the plebeians who we regard as too simple minded to get into these kind of games.

 

Jason was encouraging the community to build tutorial missions if people thought they would be useful. The team is small and otherwise completely consumed with the stuff they have to do. We could argue that a tutorial is something that they really should "have to do" but the team sets the priorities.

 

There are a couple of very brief tutorials at the start of the Stalingrad campaign. Not sure how helpful they are.

 

Back in the day we had the "Strait from the farm" campaign tutorial that some people worked through. I don't think anyone has tried to do that yet.

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One thing I noticed though is that game sales seem to have upped by quite a bit. Usually there would be between 20 and 40 reviews per month, now its at 70...

 

There was a sale.

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Steam reviews?

 

"Dude, there's like, no manga content or anything cool."

 

Reading Steam reviews on flight sims is tantamount to asking your mother which girl you should date in high school.

 

"But she has a nice personality..."

 

:o:  :wacko:  :lol: 

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If we want this genre to continue we have to, absolutely have to, bring in new players.  This is an incontrovertible fact.

 

You don't retain new players by not having proper manuals, tutorials, and most importantly, by having old hands just saying look it up yourself.  Most of us here have been doing this a long time, and have forgotten that flight simulation is a LOT more complicated than it was when we started 15 or 20 years ago.  The high skill floor for flight simulation is bad enough for the n00b player, couple that with all the expensive peripherals, and a high spec PC and fast internet connection, and it's hard enough to get them to stay, without acting like an elitist jerk and just tossing new players into the deep end of the pool and say "sink or swim".

 

We have to help our new players, we have to be patient with their (to us) basic questions, and give them helpful and easy to understand answers.   Hence we need to get them on the forum, and treat them well.  

 

Otherwise...

 

 

 

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Bah! If the noobs want to know how it's done, they can do what I did.

 

Go do a career in real life military aviation, then when you retire, you'll know how to work your flight simulators. If you live that long.

 

:lol::P:salute:

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Flight simulators are boring. 80% of the time is spent droning along in transit without so much as a chirp on the radio to break the monotony. If you are looking for an experience and a real feeling of "being there" in those times, you are fresh out of luck. When you do get where you're going and manage to blow something up (the very highlight of the game apparently) the smoke and flame is so strictly rationed that you can only admire your handiwork for about fifteen seconds before it all disappears. Like it doesn't matter. Like none of it matters.

 

Current flight sims make no effort to be compelling. That is the real problem.

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An interesting, and spot on, observation Feathered.

 

Sims really are not as fun as they used to be.

 

I blame the chart monkeys and rivet counters.

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I actually agree... they need more "immersion", fun stuff... I think the upcoming career mode will help some in this regard. When I was first getting into sims my first favs were Chuck Yeager, SwotL and the Janes ones (I know they are ancient). For the day they had lots of campaign/career mode flavor that helped me get into them. We need the modern versions of that to get more people into it.

Edited by AstroCat

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OP nice little subtle jab at the Fusion guys and CoD there.  Nice to see this community is supportive of them.  I knew there was a reason it took me so long and passed for so many sales before I finally picked up BoS.  It wasn't sim so much.

 

Bravo!

 

Edit: Totally misunderstood the OPs post. Totally my fault.  Sorry for the rant. 

Edited by Stardog

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...However, most of PC gamers like Steam and it's their go-to platform for wasting money on the next iteration of CoD.

 

 

OP nice little subtle jab at the Fusion guys and CoD there.  Nice to see this community is supportive of them.  I knew there was a reason it took me so long and passed for so many sales before I finally picked up BoS.  It wasn't sim so much.

 

Bravo!

 

 

I think you will find he was actually referring to the Call of Duty franchise

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Flight simulators are boring. 80% of the time is spent droning along in transit without so much as a chirp on the radio to break the monotony. If you are looking for an experience and a real feeling of "being there" in those times, you are fresh out of luck. When you do get where you're going and manage to blow something up (the very highlight of the game apparently) the smoke and flame is so strictly rationed that you can only admire your handiwork for about fifteen seconds before it all disappears. Like it doesn't matter. Like none of it matters.

 

Current flight sims make no effort to be compelling. That is the real problem.

 

 

An interesting, and spot on, observation Feathered.

 

Sims really are not as fun as they used to be.

 

I blame the chart monkeys and rivet counters.

 

So, why are you 2 still here?

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OP nice little subtle jab at the Fusion guys and CoD there.  Nice to see this community is supportive of them.  I knew there was a reason it took me so long and passed for so many sales before I finally picked up BoS.  It wasn't sim so much.

 

Bravo!

 

Oh dear, how to completely miss the point, and put two feet in one's mouth at the same time

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

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Doh! Well then my bad.  I am man enough to admit when I am wrong. No worries there.

 

Apologies 

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So, why are you 2 still here?

 

Luke, Luke, Luke...

 

Always with the shot from the hip without even thinking about what we, or anyone else is even saying.

 

Anyway, what other WW2 sim would you propose we go to????   DCS?  that may, or may not have enough content in oh, 20 years from now?    CloD?   Maybe, but I'm waiting till 5.0 comes out to pass judgement.

So here we are with the only viable WW2 sim currently on the market, for all it's flaws.

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The campaign flavour thing is something I think is worth discussing. The moment it went out the window never to be seen again was the original IL-2 Sturmovik - a sim made by a small and dedicated team from Russia that blew everything else out of the water. I heard an opinion from a guy who is a dev at a company making addons for FSX that the game was a godsend and a curse. We got a product which surpassed expectations of many die hard fans of the genre and basically killed all competition so various iteration of IL-2 ruled the virtual skies for year without anyone even making an attempt to put out something like this. And this style of focusing on realism and sacrificing the more "gamey" elements prevailed.

 

But, that isn't really true. The whole "campaing flavour" thing wasn't even a flight sim thing in the first place. Cut-scenes and menus resembling and air-base was the idea of Chris Roberts in Wing Commander. He then followed up on the idea in Strike Commander. Those games had kick-ass presentation at the time and flight sim developer also used this to add to their games that were still technologically limited. Even if you look at Jane's titles, the survey-sim ones were just arcade flight games. Hell, US Navy Fighters didn't even have a full cockpit view and that was in 97. A year later Falcon 4.0 comes out and guess what? The campaign flavour is nearly gone since animated briefings and stuff don't really fit well with a dynamic campaign. And those dynamic campaigns are all the rage - F-22 TAW, Apache Havoc etc. follow suit.

 

To be honest, I cannot really think of this immersion outside of the game proper and not be instantly reminded of Ace Combat series (which I love, just like I loved USNF97). But a realistic WWII sim with all that? CFS 2 comes to mind with all those nice comic strips, but it was kind of arcade too (you had tons of ammo and were expected to shoot down dozens of Zeros in many mission to finish them). Jane's WWII Fighters had this brilliant museum theme going on, but it was for the most part just a shooter. Aces over Pacific and later Aces over Europe didn't do much to immerse you with that sort of menu and briefing stuff either. WWI games did a better job. The old Knights of the Sky is still my favourite as it even allowed you to challenge enemy aces to a duel.

 

Now all that stuff aside, here we are in 2017 and it's not like the genre is mainstream and I also don't think it should follow mainstream trends. You really want cut-scenes in a flight sim? I'd rather have a dynamic campaign. With the graphics, sound and realism level, we really have more in terms of immersion than the old games had and that immersion comes in the game proper not menus and intros working as a crutch.

 

I have seen a video recently comparing the Normandy landing in CoD WWII and MoH AA. The major complaint was that in the new COD game, control is take away from you every several seconds just to show you something - you are not playing the game, you are watching a cut-scene. The complaints about the new Wolfenstein game I hear from friends all mention that the game is more cut-scenes than gameplay. So back to flight sims - we are not bored with mission intros, we have games with a laser focus on realism, we have meaningful mission briefings and menus that basically tell you what is what. If I want to see my pilot stats, I click on "pilot stats" and there I go - that is well thought out interface design by modern standards. Having to go into the pilots quarters and click and the locker may have all the rage when the game proper was all scaled sprites, 15FPS and PC Speaker burps acting as audio, but now... we don't really need this, because, if we decide we do, it's going to come at a cost and that will be the quality of the game proper. Even if it brings new people in... you think they will stay once they discover that after all that "flavour" there is 3 radiators, a mixture lever, a prop pitch lever and a supercharger to operate in the La-5? Reviews are going to say "the presentation is wonderful, but the gameplay sucks. No lads, we need to inform the average gamer what flight sims are about and what to expect and how to learn to fly and have fun, so they either decide right of the bat that its not for them, or have the resources to improve their skills and enjoy the game rather than rant in the review section that there is no tutorial. Baiting people with cool intros and immersive menus won't help the genre.

 

Anyway, I probably wouldn't mind some of that Chris Roberts style making it's way back to flight sims, but it's not the focus and never should be and if someone is saying that this is something that is their "to be or not to be" a genre enthusiast, then I kind of side with LukeFF one the matter.

 

In any case, if you really miss all that, hell, get yourself Strike Commander and Wing Commander on GOG, play some Crimson Skies or even Ace Combat (there is a new one coming to PC and I can't wait).

 

Also here is another suggestion - once the coop thing is in BOX, get  with your friends and do some proper role playing on the mission and maybe get CrossTalk for Teamspeak. Less pressure of a competitive environment and less vulching frustration and all the immersion you can work out yourself. :)

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