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A.I. any possible good news in near future?


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#41 Juri_JS

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 17:00

Good Mission builders can usually compensate for the AI's shortcomings, simply through how they structure encounters.

Yes, but only to some extent. For me the most problematic AI issue when building missions is not the AI's overall combat behaviour, which isn't great but also not completely bad. The real problem are some annoying AI bugs, for example:

 

- the AI's problems to form and hold formations
- poor collision avoidance
- spotting problems during dusk and dawn
- crashes during take off

- etc.

 

Finding workarounds for these kind of problems makes mission building and testing very time consuming and often frustrating, that's why I've put all my mission/campaign projects on hold until at least some of these issues are solved.


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#42 Ishtaru

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 17:20

Blind spots already exist for the AI, which is actually causing more problems because as soon as a plane enters the blind spot, the AI basically doesn't remember that there ever was an enemy plane and then starts doing erratic maneuvers.

 

So you can sneak up on the ai? I never managed to do that, pls show me the trick. As soon as i am close enough to the enemy AI he spots me, no matter from which angle i come. Also the ability to deflection shooting shows that there is no nose section. The erratic maneuvering you mention could be just the usual close range wobbling the AI does since beginning. Maybe there is a tiny tiny blindspot somewere i dont know but overall, there is no blind spot i am aware of or i can use to sneak in.

 

edit: Also clouds seem to be no problem most of the time. Can be seen when you fly in thick cloud cover while being shot at from the AAAs and planes below climbing through the clouds to engage you.


Edited by Ishtaru, 07 December 2017 - 17:23.

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#43 Matt

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 18:16

Yes i'm 100% sure. Here a mission i made for testing purposes, a Yak-1 will be right above you and you spawn in its blind spot, you can keep trailing him and sneak up on him no problem. He'll start attacking you as soon as he can actually see you.

Attached File  Blindspot.zip   3.1KB   7 downloads

 

But yes the AI can look through clouds. But afaik, there's no AI in any flightsim that can't look through clouds, but there are definately more convincing AIs in other flightsims. So i don't think it's really a huge issue specific to the AI in BoX. EDIT: Actually it can't look through clouds, as long as no plane is actually inside the cloud.

 

The biggest issue imho is that the AI doesn't seem to know what it should do. If it can see an enemy, it will try to intercept and get the enemy in his gunsight and shoot and that's basically all it does. Which also results in frequent mid air collisions, if the targets survives the gunfire and is not trying to avoid the collision himself (the player in this case, because the AI won't try to avoid the collision anyway). And the AI level basically only effects detection range and accuracy. The AI will also not extend if outmatched or damaged or try to dive or climb away from an enemy.

 

In early releases of RoF the AI was actually pretty decent. If it had a less maneuverable plane than the enemy it tried to extend and then attack (often in head-on situations though). In later versions the AI also only tried to turn towards the enemy even if it had no chance whatsoever, which is basically what we have on BoX right now.

 

I realise that programming AI is probably the most difficult thing in a flight sim right now, but i hope there will be some time spend on improving it. It's basically the only content that hasn't changed one bit since the release of BoS.


Edited by Matt, 07 December 2017 - 19:54.

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#44 Juri_JS

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 19:31

But yes the AI can look through clouds. But afaik, there's no AI in any flightsim that can't look through clouds, but there are definately more convincing AIs in other flightsims. So i don't think it's really a huge issue specific to the AI in BoX.

According to my tests the AI spotting in BoX is restricted by clouds. It's the same in Il-2 1946 although this feature was only added in one of the later updates.


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#45 Ishtaru

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 19:34

Yes i'm 100% sure. Here a mission i made for testing purposes, a Yak-1 will be right above you and you spawn in its blind spot, you can keep trailing him and sneak up on him no problem. He'll start attacking you as soon as he can actually see you.

 

Sorry but to spawn in a specific place and not being detected can just be a bug. Like the bug when the AI goes completely blind in some circumtances. Maybe there is a small blindspot below but if so, its not helping because you cant surprise the AI in a normal mission like in the QMB or campaign. You get detected as soon as you are in a certain distance so you cant come close enough to sneak in to the tiny blindspot that might be directly below the enemy AI.

 

The biggest issue imho is that the AI doesn't seem to know what it should do. If it can see an enemy, it will try to intercept and get the enemy in his gunsight and shoot and that's basically all it does. Which also results in frequent mid air collisions, if the targets survives the gunfire and is not trying to avoid the collision himself (the player in this case, because the AI won't try to avoid the collision anyway). And the AI level basically only effects detection range and accuracy. The AI will also not extend if outmatched or damaged or try to dive or climb away from an enemy.
 

 

Yeah i agree, it is just a shame that the AI is not on the same level as the rest of the game, it deserves better. 


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#46 Matt

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 20:06

According to my tests the AI spotting in BoX is restricted by clouds. It's the same in Il-2 1946 although this feature was only added in one of the later updates.

I checked again and you're right. It atleast can't look directly through overcast layers. But the AI will notice planes as soon as a plane enters the cloud layer even if it's still visually hidden. So as long as one of the planes is inside the cloud layer, it will see planes on either side of the cloud and it will be spotted by planes outside the cloud layer (above and below).

 

 

Sorry but to spawn in a specific place and not being detected can just be a bug. Like the bug when the AI goes completely blind in some circumtances.

 

No, it's not a bug. The view restrictions vary for each plane and are actually very detailed and split up in 20 sectors. Back when the GTP files were not protected you could look at each plane file. Also if the plane has a rear gunner, he will notice you and the AI will turn to engage. 

 

But yes, it's true that in most circumstances, the blind spot doesn't really matter, because you almost never will have the chance to approach an enemy flight from a blind spot position and the AI will see you 100% if you're in a certain range (varies depending on AI level) if you're not in a blind spot because it will look in all possible directions at all time and doesn't need to span around. Of course it also doesn't need to ID you as friend or foe. So in the end, the AI will very likely spot you eventually and will then turn towards you immediately and then it will just follow you around like i posted above. So it's a feature that doesn't really help much and is barely noticable and in a dogfight it causes more problems, because the AI can lose you and forgets that you were ever there, then it will spot you again, then lose you again and probably engage another enemy as soon as it lost sight of you for a second etc.


Edited by Matt, 07 December 2017 - 20:07.

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#47 Ishtaru

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 21:05

Maybe you are right, i cant proof otherwise but like you mentioned, it dosent matter much because the AI instantly spots you with its "Radar" at max range. :)

 

On the Clouds, i am pretty sure that the last time i played the AI would climb or dive through the cloud layer and come at me. I never fly in the clouds, only below or above. Maybe it has changed in the last months?


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#48 EAF_Ribbon

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 11:05

I checked again and you're right. It atleast can't look directly through overcast layers. But the AI will notice planes as soon as a plane enters the cloud layer even if it's still visually hidden. So as long as one of the planes is inside the cloud layer, it will see planes on either side of the cloud and it will be spotted by planes outside the cloud layer (above and below).



No, it's not a bug. The view restrictions vary for each plane and are actually very detailed and split up in 20 sectors. Back when the GTP files were not protected you could look at each plane file. Also if the plane has a rear gunner, he will notice you and the AI will turn to engage.

But yes, it's true that in most circumstances, the blind spot doesn't really matter, because you almost never will have the chance to approach an enemy flight from a blind spot position and the AI will see you 100% if you're in a certain range (varies depending on AI level) if you're not in a blind spot because it will look in all possible directions at all time and doesn't need to span around. Of course it also doesn't need to ID you as friend or foe. So in the end, the AI will very likely spot you eventually and will then turn towards you immediately and then it will just follow you around like i posted above. So it's a feature that doesn't really help much and is barely noticable and in a dogfight it causes more problems, because the AI can lose you and forgets that you were ever there, then it will spot you again, then lose you again and probably engage another enemy as soon as it lost sight of you for a second etc.

Same problem have Arma3 AI.
It can see trought the grass, bushes and even walls adding to it super aiming abilities from a mile away.
It is the flaw many addressed and complained but BIS didn't fix it yet and they have huge teams(USA, Czech and Netherland) working on Arma3.
I guess it's way more complicated to fix than we think.
For now i would be very happy if AI can dogfight on deck between hills and perform barrel roll, scissors as ofensive/defensive manuvers on appropriate distance.
Also what i noticed is that AI will climb if you climb and dive if you dive which is good and bad.
If i'm chasing 109 it will climb as i climb after it which is good but bad thing is it will dive as soon i dive even being chased instead to maintain alt advantage and later dive on me.
Setting AI on ace or veteran prooves it's not soo bad and give challenge but there is still lot of room for improvement which i hope will come bit by bit with upcoming updates.
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#49 EAF_51_FOX

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 15:31

Lots of good information and opinion from many of you here about A.I. level coded, I really appreciate also some of you share good information due to hours and hours of gaming, I just are a bit sad that no one world here from any guy 1C developer of the game :(


Edited by EAF_51_FOX, 08 December 2017 - 15:31.

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#50 Tomsk

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 15:41

One issue I find with the AI is they never stall, or spin ... even on the lowest difficulty setting. They never fall for a rope-a-dope. They also never disengage, even when staying is absolute suicide.


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#51 sc0ch

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 21:56

The WOFF AI sounds quite interesting.  Sounds like is was trained.

 

Maybe they used machine learning.

 

There's a big difference between handling the flight model and actual decision making.  

 

There aren't THAT many factors

1) nearest opponent vector

2) AI vector

3) opponent-AI separation vector

4) relative aircraft difference (speed, climb, turn)

 

It should be possible to do better.  For complex engagements, the flight leaders could prescribe matchups/commands for subordinates.

 

 


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#52 Tomsk

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Posted Yesterday, 18:33

So I've been playing with the PWCG (Pat Wilson's Campaign Generator) the last few days (which is amazing btw), and I'd definitely say the single biggest issue the AI has is that they never disengage. They won't disengage if they are being attacked by someone else, they won't disengage if you lead them deep into friendly territory, they won't disengage even if they don't stand a hope of catching you, they won't disengage even when their plane is shot to holy hell. Similarly I've never seen a friendly plane decide that it is too badly damaged and should RTB ... and so the fly blindly toward the objective, black smoke trailing from every orifice ... before their engine dies and they crash in a field.

 

I think fixing this would greatly improve the quality of the AI.


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#53 Juri_JS

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Posted Yesterday, 19:05

Making damaged planes disengage or limiting the distance they chase other planes is something that needs to be set by the mission designer.


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#54 Jade_Monkey

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Posted Today, 16:55

Making damaged planes disengage or limiting the distance they chase other planes is something that needs to be set by the mission designer.


Yes, RTB decision by AI is a checkbox in the settings for the planes and works well (at least if there is an enemy airfield nearby). Perhaps it should be ON by default.
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