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109 Temp Guages


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S! Pilots,

 

It seems the 109's temp gauges havn't been developed anymore. Most of the time I have to fly with the HUD turned off because with HUD on I loose about 20 fps. (Would love to see this improved). So reading engine temps is a gauge only thing. I prefer to fly by gauges only to be honest. But its next to impossible to get an accurate temp reading that you can use. The position for overheated engine and the position for a "normal" engine reading is almost identical. In IL2 1946 the engine temp gauge was much more dynamic and could be used with hud off to know where your engine was at heat wise.

 

If someone else has a better technique for that please share it. Having a hard time trying to figure out how to gauge temp readings short of using a stop watch every time I go into combat mode. Which even then, that is inaccurate because combat mode starts a different throttle settings depending on pitch, etc.. Really curious to know what others are doing.

 

Edited by RavN_c4nucK
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Are you manually setting your radiator position? Or talking 109e? If not, unless you are damaged temps will be managed by the plane fine. Timers are based on engine RPM and ATA otherwise. Some oil overheat warnings pop up, but I've never suffered a failure due to them. I'm in VR with HUD off.

 

I would love the button to check oil temps though.

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S! Pilots,

 

It seems the 109's temp gauges havn't been developed anymore. Most of the time I have to fly with the HUD turned off because with HUD on I loose about 20 fps. (Would love to see this improved). So reading engine temps is a gauge only thing. I prefer to fly by gauges only to be honest. But its next to impossible to get an accurate temp reading that you can use. The position for overheated engine and the position for a "normal" engine reading is almost identical. If someone else has a better technique for that please share it. Having a hard time trying to figure out how to gauge temp readings short of using a stop watch every time I go into combat mode. Which even then, that is inaccurate because combat mode starts a different throttle settings depending on pitch, etc.. Really curious to know what others are doing.

Keep the F2 and F2 under 1.2 ata on  "slow speed"  or cruise. At 1.2 ata it starts to build up heat  unless youare goign  quite fast or the day is very cold.

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I'm very aware at what ATA settings heat builds up. That was never the issue. My issue is with HUD OFF you essentially can't get an accurate temp reading. This is a flaw. I'm asking if there is just something I'm not noticing with the gauge, and if not, what is someone suppose to do if they choose to fly with HUD off because they are looking for a simulator experience or fps purposes.

 

Here is an example, I get into a fight, I end up needing full emergency power, eventually work down to combat power-ish (because there is no hud) how am I suppose to be aware of my engine temp settings in order to keep those temps low? Mentally keeping track of how long you've been in what power setting should only be a secondary solution. The primary solution should be a visible spike in temp readings as per the gauge.

 

I'm by no means an official 109 pilot but I'm sure 109 pilots don't just have the engine fail due to overheating without the visible engine temperatures sky rocketing. 

 

Thanks for the replies.

 

Regards

Edited by RavN_c4nucK
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-snip-

 

My issue is with HUD OFF you essentially can't get an accurate temp reading. This is a flaw. 

 

-snip-

 

I'm by no means an official 109 pilot but I'm sure 109 pilots don't just have the engine fail due to overheating without the visible engine temperatures sky rocketing. 

 

-

 

No fighter pilot in WWII could accurately determine the exact engine temperature using cockpit gauges. This isn't a flaw - it's how non-digital gauges work - approximation... And the existing gauges work perfectly fine for approximation.

 

None of the top 50 Luftwaffe aces could've said "Ah, yes... My DB601 is running approximately 98.725 centigrade." In fact, no pilot from any combatant air force could have accurately made a statement like that.

 

Should the engine fail due to slight overheating? Probably not... But it sounds like you're describing two separate things. Hokey engine limits vs. "I want ahistorical digital gauges without HUD on."

Edited by Space_Ghost
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No fighter pilot in WWII could accurately determine the exact engine temperature using cockpit gauges. This isn't a flaw - it's how non-digital gauges work - approximation... And the existing gauges work perfectly fine for approximation.

 

None of the top 50 Luftwaffe aces could've said "Ah, yes... My DB601 is running approximately 98.725 centigrade." In fact, no pilot from any combatant air force could have accurately made a statement like that.

 

Should the engine fail due to slight overheating? Probably not... But it sounds like you're describing two separate things. Hokey engine limits vs. "I want ahistorical digital gauges without HUD on."

 

I know, getting a truly accurate temp reading that you described (98.725) is ridiculous. But what I'm talking about is. The temp readings from continuous, to combat power, to emergency, to engine blown due to overheat is essentially no difference. That, is a flaw. In 1946 I also flew with HUD OFF and I was able to tell my engine temperature much more accurately than the current design. Not trying to say 1946 is better or anything, dont want anyone to get the wrong idea. BTW I'm talking strictly the F4/G2/G4 (as I don't have the F2 or E7 so I can't comment on those models)

Edited by RavN_c4nucK
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-snip-

 

The temp readings from continuous, to combat power, to emergency, to engine blown due to overheat is essentially no difference.

 

-snip-

 

This is more of an issue with gamey engine limitations/gamey engine simulation rather than an issue with output to the gauges.

 

Same thing as when you push the throttle a hair past 1.2ATA and you're in "combat mode" even though there was no significant change in engine output/RPM.

 

Engine "modes" and limits are way too binary.

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The engine failing is not due to overheat though if you aren't damaged or manually operating them. The auto radiators open up enough to compensate. Its a game engine destruction timer, so if you are looking at your temp gauge for this, your looking in the wrong spot if flying a F or G series 109.

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Unfortunately so Space_Ghost =[

 

Well the devs have said to post things that could improve the game so maybe one day they could get around to this limitation. 


The engine failing is not due to overheat though if you aren't damaged or manually operating them. The auto radiators open up enough to compensate. Its a game engine destruction timer, so if you are looking at your temp gauge for this, your looking in the wrong spot if flying a F or G series 109.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what your saying is the only "accurate" way to tell is to keep a mental stop clock? (With HUD OFF of course)

 

Edited by RavN_c4nucK
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This is more of an issue with gamey engine limitations/gamey engine simulation rather than an issue with output to the gauges.

 

Same thing as when you push the throttle a hair past 1.2ATA and you're in "combat mode" even though there was no significant change in engine output/RPM.

 

Engine "modes" and limits are way too binary.

 

Running at just over 1.2ATA and 1.3ATA though have very different timers from my experience. Its only because we have those stupid tech tips visible that it really matters and people ride the edge. If no tech tips and a less "instant" engine failure was in place, then it might seem more realistic.

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Thats the problem for me. So I get into a fight, I go into combat power, then eventually emergency power, then back down to combat power for a while. Well game instructions are combat power for 30 minutes. Well what happens if you go into combat power for 20 minutes, then emergency power for some time, then back down to combat power. How much more time do you have on combat power now? I know the exact answer to that could never really be answered but since we don't have an accurate temp gauge to use to keep track of this the only solution is to use the number game like I just mentioned. Its a serious limitation. 

 

I don't fly Russian aircraft much, at least not enough to care about the temp gauges because you can pretty much set your throttle at 100 and go without much worry and yes I'm very aware there is much more you can do, lol.

Edited by RavN_c4nucK
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All I can suggest is when you have an opportunity to, rest your engine. It does seemingly wind back and if long enough reset some of your timers.

You are honestly doing well to exceed your 30 minutes combat time. Probably only do-able if you fly to and from the objectives flat out.

 

Don't.

 

Fly at continuous or cruise power when ever you have the opportunity and you wont break your engine as much.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but what your saying is the only "accurate" way to tell is to keep a mental stop clock? (With HUD OFF of course)

 

There is a clock in your cockpit, too  :) 

But indeed, you don't need to worry about your temps in F's or G's, if you are not damaged. Just keep eye on your RPM's and if you need to go to emergency power for extended time, take a quick look at your clock in cockpit, so you have an idea when to ease up on your throttle. 

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There are two issues here, one is engine failure due to high MP/RPM, and another which is caused by overheating.

Reading the water temp gauge is not impossible if you're not riding on limits. Most of the time I can keep it around 80-90.

 

I wonder however what do I miss with the oil temp gauge. I don't see anything there.

Futhermore, I can guess a fuel leak when my fuel pressure drops, and I can guess an oil leak when my oil pressure drops.

But how can I guess a water coolant leak? (which in turn leads to engine overheating and damage).

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There is a clock in your cockpit, too  :)

But indeed, you don't need to worry about your temps in F's or G's, if you are not damaged. Just keep eye on your RPM's and if you need to go to emergency power for extended time, take a quick look at your clock in cockpit, so you have an idea when to ease up on your throttle. 

 

I forgot about the in cockpit clock. That would be a good tool to use when needed. Thanks for that. Ultimately, I should be able to glance at my temps in order to tell where my engines at. I hope the devs gets around to seeing this post and improve this feature over time. Especially for those of us that either choose or have to fly with HUD off due to FPS issues with HUD being on.

 

Thanks for all the replies. S!

Edited by RavN_c4nucK
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welcome to the destruction timers club :)

 

E7 has 1 min of boosted power, and per my experience it's a 'combined' timer over a course of a 4-5 min dog fight. I.e. you can either use it all at once for a whole minute, or back off after every 15-20 seconds, i.e. u can do it 3-4 times within a certain period, which is unknown, but I suspect it resets back to 0 after 10 mins.

 

I just trained myself to start counting mississipi's in my head as the cockpit timer requires too much brain power to process during the dog fight.

 

I forgot about the in cockpit clock. That would be a good tool to use when needed. Thanks for that. Ultimately, I should be able to glance at my temps in order to tell where my engines at. I hope the devs gets around to seeing this post and improve this feature over time. Thanks for all the replies. S!

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Do we have historical accounts of undamaged engines in combat being blown up because overheating? Overheat will shorten the engine's life for sure, maybe a loss of power in the worst case, but blowing up? Have you try the P40? blows up quickly, 109 if you exceed the boost , blows up.

 

When I see all the new planes and stuff coming is nice, but no one seem to care about more realistic engine damage modelling, most guages mean nothing, oil and fuel pressure? you fly with an oil leak or fuel leak, but pressure doesnt drop in the gauges.

Loss of power ? only before engine quits, this is why people and the AI fly and attack you back with an smoking engine.

 

You get a message engine damage, but no loss of power whatsoever (agreed in some cases you will not loose power , like oil leak) but if you have 1 or 2 cylinders blown off, you will smoke, shake and loose power, so instead of continue your attack you try to survive and make it home nursing the motor.

 

This will make me more happy than new planes, but I dont see many guys asking for this.

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Loss of power ? only before engine quits, this is why people and the AI fly and attack you back with an smoking engine.

 

 

That's one thing that AI and people playing virtual combat pilots have in common: no real life to lose  ;)  

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When I see all the new planes and stuff coming is nice, but no one seem to care about more realistic engine damage modelling, most guages mean nothing, oil and fuel pressure? you fly with an oil leak or fuel leak, but pressure doesnt drop in the gauges.

Loss of power ? only before engine quits, this is why people and the AI fly and attack you back with an smoking engine.

 

You get a message engine damage, but no loss of power whatsoever (agreed in some cases you will not loose power , like oil leak) but if you have 1 or 2 cylinders blown off, you will smoke, shake and loose power, so instead of continue your attack you try to survive and make it home nursing the motor.

 

This will make me more happy than new planes, but I dont see many guys asking for this.

 

Couldn't agree more. I wish the trend was making the small details more realistic like fuel pressure, oil pressure, temps, etc. and building on the foundation of the base game. Not new planes. But thats my opinion and I know that doesn't make as much money. 

 

 

Edited by RavN_c4nucK
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More detailed sounds always nice, but I did not fully get what was the supposed problem with current temp gauges or fuel pressure? I have not noticed any problems with temp gauges and why should the fuel pressure drop if your fuel tank was leaking?

Edited by II./JG77_Kemp
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There is no visible difference in engine temp readings from continuous power after that setting has settled. Now once I go into combat power, and even overheat my engine while in combat power there is no visible difference in temperature reading on the gauge. Not even if you overheat in emergency mode and blow up your engine do you see hardly any difference as I was saying in my first few posts. In 1946 the engine temp gauges were much more dynamic and you could actually keep an eye on your temp settings with hud off as thats the way I've always played. 

 

The other comment that motoadve made about the other gauges (Fuel and Oil Pressure) was purely mentioning an improvement to the game by truly having accurate and dynamic fuel and oil pressure changes. Which we don't have currently. What I was mentioning is a limitation for people that fly with hud off. BTW Please don't respond with something like "Well fly with hud on". I choose not to for 2 reasons. I prefer as much as a sim as possible, and with hud on my fps dips so low the sim is virtually unplayable. (I genuinely get -20fps with hud on)

Edited by RavN_c4nucK
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But what kind of visible difference are you expecting on the temp gauge and why? What makes you think that the auto-rads are not able to keep the temps where they are supposed to be?

For example, when I drive my car and run it's engine at 2000 RPM or 2500 RPM, I see no visible difference in the temp gauge either. It remains right where I expect it to be.

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There is no visible difference in engine temp readings from continuous power after that setting has settled. Now once I go into combat power, and even overheat my engine while in combat power there is no visible difference in temperature reading on the gauge.

So, if the temp gauge shows no difference from normal reading, how do you come to the conclusion that your engine is overheating?

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The other comment that motoadve made about the other gauges (Fuel and Oil Pressure) was purely mentioning an improvement to the game by truly having accurate and dynamic fuel and oil pressure changes. Which we don't have currently.

I have understood that there are plans to do more detailed fuel systems in the future, but I just wondered why should a fuel tank leak cause drop in fuel pressure, if all the pumps and pipes and valves were working fine?

Edited by II./JG77_Kemp
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I have understood that there are plans to do more detailed fuel systems in the future, but I just wondered why should a fuel tank leak cause drop in fuel pressure, if all the pumps and pipes and valves were working fine?

If the fuel lines are hit you will see loss in fuel pressure, starving engine coughing and a loss of pressure in the gauge.

If fuel tank leak, no fuel pressure drop , would be nice to be able close the leaking tank though.

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Look behind your plane. :)

 

Are you sure it can be seen from the cockpit? Yesterday my left underwing rad was perforated by a single bullet. I didn't know of it, and I didn't notice any problems until my engine got overheated on my way back to base. I couldn't see anything wrong from the cockpit, and I simply could not grasp what the hell may have happened. It was not obvious until I replayed the recorded track in external view that the underwing rad emitted a white trail after it was hit by the stray bullet.

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I have understood that there are plans to do more detailed fuel systems in the future, but I just wondered why should a fuel tank leak cause drop in fuel pressure, if all the pumps and pipes and valves were working fine?

Fuel injection is a pressurised closed loop system

even without engine running there can be 5-60 psi of pressure in fuel rails

 

tank leaks this fuel is pushed out by pressure also and pressure in system drops

 

 

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Seems to me, both this thread and the one about the spitfire radiators are touching on the same fundamental problem:

 

Engine temperature and tolerance models are very inadequate for the level of authenticity* expected of this simulator.    This is not to mean we expect "DCS like" detail of operations to each plane, as that would be indeed quite costly (in terms of effort, as well as budget) to develop and most likely, not really worth the effort.

 

* "authenticity" is a term I prefer over "realism" to describe a state of contextual coherence for a given feature which is sufficient for Suspension of Disbelief, even if not necessarily a one-to-one exact copy of its respective real-life counterpart.

 

 

Yet the current model is a source of much controversy and understandable frustration.  It is too deterministic. (this is the programmer term for what SpaceGhost described as "binary", though he did hit the nail on the head there)  The self-destruction of an engine is a very arbitrary, non-organic event in this series.  One moment you're perfectly fine, one second later: "Poof!" you're a glider! 

 

The result is very unconvincing, belying the plausibility of an otherwise deeply immersive simulator.

 

 

If engines were to overheat correctly, and their health had any indication in the oil pressure gauge, (low pressure means imminent engine death, either due to a leak, or too hot oil that is too thin and allows metal-on-metal grinding) there would be almost no need to artificially impose timed limitations.  They would mostly "impose themselves" due to perfectly authentic, gauge-identifiable reasons.

 

 

What there is now instead, is a cartoon-style caricature of the historical need for a pilot to be gentle with his engine.  It does not belong in a simulator that focuses on realism, even if not committed to reaching the same depth as a study sim.   

 

 

 

In short :  Engines are much too crude and fall short of minimum requirements for preserving suspension of disbelief.   

Edited by 19//Moach
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When those small details can be packaged and sold so the team can make more money, they'll be done right away. But they can't, so they are done when they can be done.

 

Planes, on the other hand, are an immediate and obvious attraction to most current, and new, customers.

 

Don't complain that things haven't been implemented - from a year ago - that is just silly. Look at how much more will be coming with the official release of BoK.

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Generally when some limit has been exceeded in a fairly high performance engine of 1500-2000hp to the point of "hearing or feeling it" the damage has been done and you are out of the fight, they do not 'recover' more often than not the first power reduction will cause a catastrophic failure, there is a fairly fine operating limit for these engines, after that, things go wrong pretty quickly

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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When those small details can be packaged and sold so the team can make more money, they'll be done right away. But they can't, so they are done when they can be done.

 

Planes, on the other hand, are an immediate and obvious attraction to most current, and new, customers.

 

Don't complain that things haven't been implemented - from a year ago - that is just silly. Look at how much more will be coming with the official release of BoK.

 

I don't see anybody complaining - back off with the rhetoric.

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