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TexasWarbird

"Vulching" IE Flower Missions Question for Community

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Is the act of completing Counter Air Patrols, or Flower missions frowned upon? or what I usually hear it called "Vulching" which is a completely different tactic...But I notice people often mistake the two. Anyways, usually I'd try to stem away from completing these kind of Air patrols because they don't seem to make many people happy on the other end. But as of late I happened to be buzzed quiet a bit more frequently than before after take off. (Possibly due to a spike and or change in community now flying with the popularity being received); So in return I started completing a few of these flower missions as well. Now I'm not one to complain about using an Air combat tactic on an Air Combat sim. But I laid down a few rules for myself before completing these kind of missions. 

 

First would be to avoid flying over/bombing an Airfield directly, as I can understand how dull that could be and it defines vulching..

 

Second would be to make sure they're some distance from the airfield and competently Airborne. At-least (1 1/2 to 2) grids away from airfield. Also It's they're business if they'd wish to gain altitude or not so I don't factor that in. (Since it can change due to their flight mission)

 

Now under the circumstances I laid down would/should it be considered bad manners OR also would I have the right to be insulted if blown out the sky?

 

Which also on that note; after a few times of this happening to me I started changing my take off tactics to avoid/make myself a more difficult target for flower missions during take off. Really simple stuff..All I've been doing is making sure I have more airspeed while taking off and gaining at least 1.5 - 2 above ground at the airfield before I move to my TA..and Oh yeah..check my six. I'm just wondering the Forums point of view on these tactics since I'm starting notice more and more players moaning about being shot down not maintaining flight awareness. Also this Air Combat tactic cannot be moderated through servers rules so I'd like other players to be able to read other peoples points of views on this topic with a more recent post.

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As long as people do not bomb me at the SPAWN point ( do not care at runway.. If I decided to proceed with the taxi I am taking the risk).. I am ok with it. A well tuned  AAA force near airfields make vulching harder than   killing a bit later in fact

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Personally, I'm okay with it with some caveats, which can be summed up by asking, "is this person attacking an airbase helping their team or are they simply impatient and looking for quick action?"

 

For instance, the following are cases where I am not okay with airbase attacks

  • One team is steamrolling objectives and winning, but the opposite team's fighters are busy "vulching" - in this case, the enemy pilots ought to be defending their targets, which are getting wiped out, instead of hanging out at 4k above airfields looking for a quick fight (it's fine to want a quick fight, just go to Berloga for that).
  • One team is vastly outnumbering the other, and the outnumbering team is bored, so they start creeping closer and closer to enemy airfields and start vulching them. This just compounds a numbers imbalance, and players in that situation should just balance the sides instead of making airfield attacks. When its 40 vs 15 and the outnumbered team is constantly getting vulched it would make things more fun for everyone if folks tried to balance sides instead of compounding the problem.
  • Suicidal vulching. Nothing ruins immersion more than a suicidal 109 circling around an enemy base at 1k shooting at everything that moves until it is inevitably killed. If you make intelligent, high speed passes on an airbase and fly even vaguely like your virtual life matters, I have no issue.

 

On the other hand, here are cases where I am okay with airbase attacks, even if I end up getting killed on spawn

  • Airbases are a primary server objective, like on TAW for instance. In that case, massive bombing raids against airbases help your team very much. Even if I get bombed at my spawn, I understand that and it doesn't bother me. Even WoL now has plane limits, so massacring the other side at their spawn is a valid tactic for the team, if the teams are even.
  • Again, if the teams are even and a server is full and the match is even (in regards to objectives destroyed) then a counter air patrol or direct attack on a frontline enemy airfield can be very effective in disrupting the other side's operations.

 

In short, it comes down to playing to help your team (which I would call bombing raids, counter air patrols, etc), versus impatient, suicidal and unsportsmanlike attacks (which I would call vulching). In this regard, I guess I'm even less strict about it than you, because in a balanced server with airfields as objectives I have no qualms with shooting someone on the ground during an airbase attack.

Edited by 19//curiousGamblerr
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I don't see the point in that discussion. Vulching is just a desperate attempt in trying to scoe when you're absolutely unable to find targets otherwise. But as in the real world back then, just place twenty or so 20 mm AAA round spawn points and any vulcher will reconsider his hobby. Leaving airfields undefended just asks for getting vulched.

 

Just the other day, I was tying out tank on online maps. On every attempt to join in I got spawn killed in the sense that I "existed" < 1 second. Repeatedly.

 

Circling an airfield waiting for planes to spawn at leat takes a while to line up for an attack. Plus, once someone starts doing that, he'll have company soon and will be taken care of. Vulcing is nothing like classic spawn killing where you sit next to spwan points with a huge gun and just klick away anything that materializes.

 

Besides, I rarely see vulchers leave the premises intact or leave them at all.

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I do not like so called vulching, but that only goes for those camping over or around a airfield. I can understand those passing. When it comes to bombers, I have to admit I spend 1 or all bombs on the spawning aircraft if I am after a target near by. This is because I like to have a chance getting away.

I have posted against vulching many times, but I come to the conclution that vulching is a product of own fighter force not doing its job, and very rare I encounter campers around spawn

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One team is vastly outnumbering the other, and the outnumbering team is bored, so they start creeping closer and closer to enemy airfields and start vulching them. This just compounds a numbers imbalance, and players in that situation should just balance the sides instead of making airfield attacks. When its 40 vs 15 and the outnumbered team is constantly getting vulched it would make things more fun for everyone if folks tried to balance sides instead of compounding the problem.

 

I love that! I mean on the receiving side. Instant action! Yes, you might get wasted 2 out of 3 attempts to take off, but so what? I always fly for such "minorities".

 

 

 

Suicidal vulching. Nothing ruins immersion more than a suicidal 109 circling around an enemy base at 1k shooting at everything that moves until it is inevitably killed. If you make intelligent, high speed passes on an airbase and fly even vaguely like your virtual life matters, I have no issue.

 

This is daft, but makes taking them out easier.

Edited by ZachariasX
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LOL to be fair Zach, I did get a kill on TAW yesterday because someone was doing that, so it isn't always unwelcome. You're right that they make for easy kills!

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I don't mind vulching so long as the MP map design gives me another airfield option, further away, where I can have the option of taking off without harassment.

 

Maps that fail to provide those alternative fields away from the frontline fail to account for the realities of online MP playstyles, so if I'm on such a map and the vulching is too much, I just leave.

 

Fortunately, between typical server populations and the map designs on popular servers, this is pretty much a nonissue, at least if someone is willing to be flexible.

 

And all those vulchers can be very delicious targets for an enterprising player coming from the backfield to exact revenge.

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Maps that fail to provide those alternative fields away from the frontline fail to account for the realities of online MP playstyles, so if I'm on such a map and the vulching is too much, I just leave.  

 

 

This quote is something that makes sense to me. Something I've done frequently to avoid myself being taken advantage of on my sleeper days. Also granted that usually on WOL the AA around the Air Field fire as if they had Radar guided eyeballs. Getting close to an AF is down right suicide. But I figured I'd set a back drop to this topic with my sortie from yesterday. 

 

So I take off the Air Field and I do not set an immediate direct path to the enemies AF I look for the "Lines of commute"  of the Air Traffic I do venture close to the AF to complete my Flower Mission. But I stay around 2 Grids away. At this Point, the AF cannot be seen. Now I will weave in and out of the area. So I see a 109s coming in route after a completed sortie and I'll dive on to that target, and let the P-40 do the rest (He'll probably have to change his drawers). Now the other 2 109s are bit more competent They do gain altitude. They've made it too around 2m above ground. And I position myself for a Boom and zoom. At this point the AF is NOT in view. So I dive on these 109s but they're competent, they check their 6 and commence a dive and start counter measures to out maneuver me. Though this is where the P-40 out shines the 109s with it's lower compression rates, etc. Most 109's don't turn and climb  away to out pace the P-40s UNIQUE climb rate. So I usually end up on-top except with a few bruises. I get 2 more kills this way, with a fight. But stay on-top of the situation and head back to base. It was WOL this mission objective was on the list priorities since they're ticket rate hit 20 remaining after this mission. Is it wrong to complete missions in this manor?

 

Also the teams are usually even when I play. Or with a slight advantage for the Axis. 

Edited by TexasWarbird

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I just like to zoom by at very low level, preferably inverted, just above their canopy and flicking a virtual bird. I have no wish to antagonize or frustrate other players just for the sake of it or to increase some stupid personal score.

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There is no such thing as vulching. This is war - the Luftwaffe didn't go into holding patterns (during the Battle of Britain) because the RAF were still having tea did they? People always complain 'I spawned and got vulched blah blah blah'...yet they've spawned at the airbase right next to the front line because they're usually too lazy to fly from other bases. If your base is getting attacked, then you should have a CAP over the airfield. but alas...that requires tactics which you don't really get in pub servers.

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The real-world history of Operation Bodenplatte will bring a whole new legitimacy to vulching.  :biggrin:

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I dont mind being vulched but I dont like doing it myself, I'd rather give the guy a chance before shooting him down. Shooting him down while he's on the ground or just took off is just boring imo, but once he is away from his base he's fair game imo.

 

The only time Im really gonna vulch is when I know there are 262s taking off or landing, I dont feel like dealing with them in the air.

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If you want one of these in your virtual trophy cabinet..........

 

20170603_143708.jpg

 

You may have to resort to Vulching. :lol:

Edited by bzc3lk
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The real-world history of Operation Bodenplatte will bring a whole new legitimacy to vulching.  :biggrin:

I have a photo taken at Y-29 by 352nd ground crew of 109's attacking the field.

It's blurry - but still cool.

 

I'll post it here at some point.

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I don't have a problem with vulchers. If someone is stupid enough to hang around over my field waiting for someone from a nearby field to kill him and I am stupid enough to spawn and hope I can start my engine and take off before he sees me then I deserve to die.   In the Finnish server the Axis pilots frequently vulch the nearest airfield while their panzers are heading for our tank base.   It is a great tactic as it stops us bringing IL2s to kill their tanks or at least forces us to fly from further away.   Likewise my squad often closes enemy airfields and while destroying the AA and hangars etc is our primary aim,  if a 109 tries to spawn to stop us then the fighter escort will kill it quickly.  The ones that spawn elsewhere and arrive with altitude and energy are the clever ones and we always leave again as soon as the bombers have dropped everything so we don't get caught out.  The other night there was a bomber spawned when we arrived but we left it alone while we destroyed the required objects because it was not a major threat (though his gunner did put some holes in me :-) )    Actually when new pilots complain to the owner of the Finnish server that they got vulched they are directed to the Server Info that specifically tells them vulching is allowed and they should grow up.

 

If you spawn in and your field is under attack then despawn and bring a  fighter from somewhere else and get some easy kills.  If you choose to continue spawning anyway then just accept that it is your fault you died instead of getting some easy kills.   I have done that myself but when I died I always accepted that I took a lazy risk and paid the price.  It has never occurred to me to blame the enemy pilot for killing me while I was vulnerable. 

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex
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I think it depends to some extent on the type of server you fly on.  In the 'Expert' type servers I think vulching is a little bit more acceptable because it's more of an attempt to recreate actual battlefield conditions.

 

On normal servers (where I typically fly - cos I really struggle to see aircraft on my wee monitor) I don't think vulching is acceptable at all.   Normal servers are nothing more than a contest of flying/fighting skills. Unfortunately, 'normal' servers often appear to attract the idiots who are quite happy to repeatedly shoot -up aircraft on the ground.  These people are often so intent on doing this that they'll fly into you on the deck or carry on being idiots even after they eventually get hit by flak (which is never heavy enough IMO).

 

When it gets right down to it this is a game not a war.  Behaving like idiots just ruins the experience.  These days I just tend to stop playing when the idiots can't control their more child-like tendencies.   Sad but what else can you do.  

Edited by Wulf
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There is no such thing as vulching. This is war - the Luftwaffe didn't go into holding patterns (during the Battle of Britain) because the RAF were still having tea did they? People always complain 'I spawned and got vulched blah blah blah'...yet they've spawned at the airbase right next to the front line because they're usually too lazy to fly from other bases. If your base is getting attacked, then you should have a CAP over the airfield. but alas...that requires tactics which you don't really get in pub servers.

How is this War .Its a computer game.vulching is bull. Plenty to do on the maps plenty of targets to destroy .No need to vulch.And this isn't war.
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I'm 100% ok with airfield raids that have strategic value, a fighter doing a suicide solo run on any airfield is just a waste of time for all involved and a waste of a pilot/aircraft.

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I wonder if the new Airmarshal feature will allow them to monitor this sort of thing and warn target airfields of an incoming dweeb. Maybe even identify boot the miscreant if they persist in such entry level trolling

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How about the RAFs Tempest anti-ME 262 missions? The moment they heard that ME 262s were airborne, they would get a flight and have it orbit near their airbase. When the ME-262s came back to land, they shoot down the easy targets. Could be a cool career mission for the 2 squadrons assigned to do that as their promary mission, similar to an alert mission in ROF. Maybe the ME 262s can also have their own mission, to intercept some allied bombers, who have their own mission, to bomb a German supply dump or marshalling yard or even a town that has German vehicles parked in it and AT guns set up in the streets. This not only gives the impression of a dynamic world, but allows the Tempests to fly from their field to the 262 field and wait for them to return. Maybe the bombers can spawn maybe 2 KM from the target, and the 262s spawn 1 KM from the bombers(after all, the Tempests would only scramble when they knew 262s were in the air, and that means they have to be reported by someone). This also means the Tempests will not have to wait too long after getting to the ME 262 airbase, because it will not be long until a few victorious German pilots come home to a very unpleasant surprise.

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Flower missions, vulching, it’s all fine by me. I’d rather be quickly killed at my spawn point than fly around for 40 minutes only to be boom ‘n’ zoomed without seeing a contact at all.

 

If I want to avoid being vulched, I just spawn at an airfield further away from the front lines, simple.

 

There is no such thing as vulching. This is war

Yes, playing this game is just as difficult, terrifying, and important as going to war. I’m sure that all the veterans here would agree with you :rolleyes:

Edited by FFS_Cybermat47
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How is this War .Its a computer game.vulching is bull. Plenty to do on the maps plenty of targets to destroy .No need to vulch.And this isn't war.

 

this isn't Team DM either. We're depicting the air war which included shooting up a/c on enemy airfields. People get lazy because they don't want to spawn at an airbase further out. What do you expect? 'oh wait, i have to spawn, take off, climb to 3000m then you can attack me'? 

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Better we cancel Battle of Bodenplatte there is too much vulching going around the airfields......... :dry:

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this isn't Team DM either. We're depicting the air war which included shooting up a/c on enemy airfields. People get lazy because they don't want to spawn at an airbase further out. What do you expect? 'oh wait, i have to spawn, take off, climb to 3000m then you can attack me'?

 

How about the peopel that suicide their planes throwing at you in the parking lot while you start your engine? IS that realistic war behavior?  The suiciders are the only real issue...

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How about the RAFs Tempest anti-ME 262 missions? The moment they heard that ME 262s were airborne, they would get a flight and have it orbit near their airbase. When the ME-262s came back to land, they shoot down the easy targets. Could be a cool career mission for the 2 squadrons assigned to do that as their promary mission, similar to an alert mission in ROF. Maybe the ME 262s can also have their own mission, to intercept some allied bombers, who have their own mission, to bomb a German supply dump or marshalling yard or even a town that has German vehicles parked in it and AT guns set up in the streets. This not only gives the impression of a dynamic world, but allows the Tempests to fly from their field to the 262 field and wait for them to return. Maybe the bombers can spawn maybe 2 KM from the target, and the 262s spawn 1 KM from the bombers(after all, the Tempests would only scramble when they knew 262s were in the air, and that means they have to be reported by someone). This also means the Tempests will not have to wait too long after getting to the ME 262 airbase, because it will not be long until a few victorious German pilots come home to a very unpleasant surprise.

 

Vulching was so common that most 262 bases had Fw190 or TA152H units based there specifically to protect the 262s as they took off and landed.   

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How about the peopel that suicide their planes throwing at you in the parking lot while you start your engine? IS that realistic war behavior?  The suiciders are the only real issue...

Vulching was suicidal enough for earning an official (temporary) ban by people that didn't mind expending entire wings over two months time. Still it was common practise.

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I’ve not heard the phrase “flower mission” before this thread and am curious if someone can share more info?

 

I get that it was a real life vulching mission, I’m just curious to learn where the phrase comes from.

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Straffing an airfield is sound practice - especially in a mission oriented environment.

"Vulching" is a term that doesn't even exist in the context of historical air warfare obviously.

 

Online air quake rooms are a non-realistic, highly artificial environment and one should expect to be "vulched" in such a place if you're too lazy to fly/spawn from a more distant airfield.

 

If you're camping/circling over an airfield and strafing spawners you're a tool - the end. That's vulching (vulture - get it?)

If you've flown in, braved enemy fighters and AA and you make a pass at the field - that's called war.

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I’ve not heard the phrase “flower mission” before this thread and am curious if someone can share more info?

 

I get that it was a real life vulching mission, I’m just curious to learn where the phrase comes from.

 

The Allies had several of such terms just to describe what sort of mission you were going on eg 'Rhubarb' was a mission used when the clouds were low just flying under the clouds  looking for something to shoot up such as vehicles & trains & infantry while a 'Mandolin' was specifically attacking transport targets and a 'Roadstead' was looking for ships to attack at sea or in the harbours.  The 'Flower' was the correct term for what we call vulching as its aim was to stop anyone taking off and kill any that did.

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex
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I think any players that shot me down recently on TAW, vulching or jumping me within 10km of my AF should be banned for life.  :P

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I only play on TAW and RE, not on arcade servers like WOL, so this reflects that.

 

I love a well executed airfield attack.  Launching an assault on an enemy airfield four IL-2s(or whatever) abreast loaded with rockets, cannons and bombs and laying waste to a squad of complacent pilots sitting on the runway or taking their time spooling up in the parking lot and hopefully living to tell the tale is absolutely great fun, one of the most nerve wracking and rewarding missions to execute.  What, I should wait for them to be in the air and untouchable before I try to kill them?  No, thanks.  It's also relatively common for small flights of fighters to hide away from an enemy airfield but still within sight range where they are able to identify attackers taking off so they can shadow them until outside the protection of the AA and then pounce, an intelligent tactic.  I'm more often on the receiving end of this than giving, but only if I'm foolish enough to be predictable so I certainly can't whine about it.

 

This isn't the same thing as a bored fighter running circles around the airfield within Anti-air range because he didn't feel like putting in the work of covering his ground troops or strike aircraft or patrolling a chunk of airspace.  That's supremely annoying and destructive behavior, but something that mostly vanishes as long as you fly on a server that caters to a more serious mentality.  Self-selection is the most powerful tool here.

Edited by JV.44/Silas
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The Allies had several of such terms just to describe what sort of mission you were going on eg 'Rhubarb' was a mission used when the clouds were low just flying under the clouds  looking for something to shoot up such as vehicles & trains & infantry while a 'Mandolin' was specifically attacking transport targets and a 'Roadstead' was looking for ships to attack at sea or in the harbours.  The 'Flower' was the correct term for what we call vulching as its aim was to stop anyone taking off and kill any that did.

 

Thank you very much! Excellent info.

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More elitism please.

 

"OMG my map shows where I am, this is totally WT arcade mode".

 

 

 

Icons to mark planes on your screen, GPS tracking for your aircraft, simple(zero) engine management, no overall goal?  What would you like to call it?  Seems pretty arcade-like to me.  

 

It's not derogatory.  If that's the kind of experience you're looking for then it's perfect, enjoy.  If not, don't fly there.  But I'm not going to pretend it's something it isn't.  The reason I pointed it out was because none of what I said applies to that kind of server.

Edited by JV.44/Silas

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Icons to mark planes on your screen, GPS tracking for your aircraft, simple(zero) engine management, no overall goal?  What would you like to call it?  Seems pretty arcade-like to me.

 

It's not derogatory, if that's the kind of experience you're looking for then it's perfect.  If not, don't fly there.  But I'm not going to pretend it's something it isn't.

Dude, you've literally never played an arcade game in your life.

 

Moreover:

 

1.  WoL doesn't have icons.

2.  Yes, it does have GPS.  OH NO.  DA ARCADE!

3.  Who cares about engine management?  Germans don't have none.  I'm not even sure if simplified engine management exists on the Russian side.  Why?  I  don't hate myself.  I don't even take the chance of having to bind 6 extra keys just to play the game.

 

I call it a normal sim server.

 

TAW and RE are "I hate myself and my life, and I will never be competitive unless I buy $1000 worth of gear and screens" servers.

 

Don't misunderstand me, I appreciate - not enjoy, but appreciate - the challenge of TAW/RE.  But elitist snobs like yourself are exactly what keeps the air sim community at a population of ~500 people.  Shitting on people as "arcade" for not wanting to deal with mundane, boring, incomprehensibly trivial nonsense like engine management is only driving more pilots away.  Shame on you.

 

You want arcade?  Go play WT arcade.  THAT is arcade - and it's even more realistic than World of Warplanes.  Stop shitting on people as "arcade players" just because they think engine management is asinine.

Edited by thebusdriver

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Dude, you've literally never played an arcade game in your life.

 

Moreover:

 

1.  WoL doesn't have icons.

2.  Yes, it does have GPS.  OH NO.  DA ARCADE!

3.  Who cares about engine management?  Germans don't have none.  I'm not even sure if simplified engine management exists on the Russian side.  Why?  I  don't hate myself.  I don't even take the chance of having to bind 6 extra keys just to play the game.

 

I call it a normal sim server.

 

TAW and RE are "I hate myself and my life, and I will never be competitive unless I buy $1000 worth of gear and screens" servers.

 

Don't misunderstand me, I appreciate - not enjoy, but appreciate - the challenge of TAW/RE.  But elitist snobs like yourself are exactly what keeps the air sim community at a population of ~500 people.  Shitting on people as "arcade" for not wanting to deal with mundane, boring, incomprehensibly trivial nonsense like engine management is only driving more pilots away.  Shame on you.

 

 

No icons in WOL?  My memory fails me, then.  Anyway, I don't think it's normal, I think it's arcade.  Usually when someone bothers to play a sim they want to do things like manage their aircraft and understand where they are in the world, right?  Maybe that's not normal nowadays.  But I'm not standing in the way of you enjoying yourself, nor anyone else so don't worry and feel free to pretend I didn't say such mean things. 

 

P.S. My favorite arcade game was tank battalion, a friend and I would play it on a Colombian knockoff of the NES but the controllers would lag sometimes and that would be the end of you.

Edited by JV.44/Silas

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I could be wrong.

 

I just think you're unfair w.r.t people playing "arcade".  There's a huge difference between WoWP and WT arcade, never mind WT arcade and WoL.  Meanwhile, the difference between WoL and TAW is fairly miniscule in my opinion.

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The only difference in server settings between WoL and TAW is the GPS. WoL has CEM and everything else. The combat environment is way different because of TAW's rules tho.

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