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AndyJWest

So, Tank Crew stuff. What exactly are we getting?

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T-34 STZ is a variation of the T-34, produced by the workers of the Stalingrad Tractor Factory (or 'Zhavod'). I believe it only differs from the T-34s produced by other factories that it had bolted on extra armor plates of 15mm thickness on the hull. Otherwise its the same as the others, with 76.2mm gun that was getting a bit obsolate by 1943 vs the new German tanks.

 

So, basically an uparmored T-34

STZ's T-34 is the same T-34. Main differences between tank factories, IIRC, were elements of construction, like wheels, rear armour plate's hatch, turret, etc. It didn't affect the characteristics of the tank in general. If we speek about T-34-76 of 41-42 years.

And as I remember, STZ managed to produce only 200 (don't know exactly, maybe much more) T-34 with additional plates in early 1942. And other factories make the same work with some variants of armour plates.

T-34 in the game now is an ordinary T-34-76 from STZ, didn't he?

Edited by MicroShket

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I don't know. It would certainly be a viable candidate as well, but the StuG III is still a lot more versatile (i.e. infantry support role) and could also be used where tanks weren't in use or very rare (i.e. Kuban) because they belonged to the artillery branch and not the Panzerwaffe.

There's also the point that StuG III was the single most produced German AFV with over 10 000 produced. Ferdinands ran a total of 91.

 

If Germans really need a long 88*, then why not Nashorn? It's a lightly armoured and tall profile tank with the same horrible gun as Ferdi, and over 450 were produced.

 

Seriously though, I am not completely sold on the idea of Ferdi either. Historical considerations aside, look at the German guns.

- 75 mm KwK 40 on Panzer IV, remained competitive until the end of the war

- 75 mm KwK 42 on Panther D, a really good gun

- 88 mm KwK 36, a version of famous 88 mm FlaK gun, really good gun used until the end of war.

- 88 mm KwK 43 was utilized in Tiger B (King Tiger) and paper tanks, as well a number of tank destroyers. It's a really great heavy gun, which punched through pretty much all of the tanks Allieds used in WW2. To put the KwK 43 into perspective, it is comparable to Soviet 100mm gun which was used in T-54 and T-55 and still remains in use. The US 90mm equivalent was used as main tank gun until late 1960s. We're talking performance levels that Russian and US forces found acceptable for frontline MBTs until 1960s.

 

The way Russians and Allies dealt with Ferdinands and other German heavy monstrosities was basically "use infantry / track it and then kill the crew" or "it cannot be everywhere, so just advance elsewhere. It will be ops loss at some point." These approaches are pretty hard to model in tactical vehicle combat scenarios.

 

Edited by ElPerk

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2.) Violent shaking when hit by small-caliber MGs
 

 

Well, then it would need cracked glass in view ports if hit as it was a way to blind a tank.

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I also think stug 3 would be better. It's too iconic, like ju52 to not to have it in game.

I remember reading diary of german soldier, he was talking about Elefants and he loved them, they saved him and his companions many times, it was destroying attacking T34 easly but since they were retreating they had to destroy them because no fuel.

 

Still these were used during kursk battle and did a lot. I am pretty sure that if tanks will sell good we will get more expansions with stug 3 and hopefully panzer 2.

 

 

 

Well, then it would need cracked glass in view ports if hit as it was a way to blind a tank.

I think it's already in game.

 

Also can't wait for tanks on the pacific ;)

Edited by InProgress
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When we say detailed we don't mean like WT or WOT maps with super destructible everything. We're talking about adding a more detailed terrain mesh and maybe destructible trees and other small elements that make it a bit more detailed, but not crushing detail. Don't over-think these things.

 

Tanks on other maps will look like it does now which is still good enough for open range tank maneuvers and battles.The complaints we have about tanks on our current maps is that they are simply too big for tanks to have a lot of fun. You can argue about that all day, but if we make a cool map designed for tankers to battle it can only add to the fun. There will also be a few airfields on this map as well.

 

Jason 

Great, that is the answer I was looking for. Looking forward to Tank Crew!

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The way Russians and Allies dealt with Ferdinands and other German heavy monstrosities was basically "use infantry / track it and then kill the crew" or "it cannot be everywhere, so just advance elsewhere. It will be ops loss at some point." These approaches are pretty hard to model in tactical vehicle combat scenarios.

 

 

Absolutely, the Ferdinand will be extremely dangerous unless

  • infantry gets the ability to ambush tanks
  • some sort of reliability is modelled (such as x minutes above y RPM = engine broken) because this could be construed to mostly affect monster vehicles
  • start with little fuel to represent the logistical nightmare of supplying vehicles with 90 km cross-country range, forcing very conservative tactics

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Very much looking forward to some tank battles.  Could the forum here consider a special "Armor" section to discuss this topic, and allow units to plan ahead as this series progresses?

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Very much looking forward to some tank battles.  Could the forum here consider a special "Armor" section to discuss this topic, and allow units to plan ahead as this series progresses?

 

The forums need several subforums added.

 

GD has become super clustered over the last week.

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Salutations,

 

I will be very pleased if the LOS (line of sight) situation, concerning tank combat, has been corrected or addressed.

 

Currently, forest do NOT block line of sight or fire! :blink: So using masking terrain for maneuver is not possible.

 

Currently, intervening elevated terrain does NOT block line of sight but DOES block fire. Still, the AI tanks will attempt to fire through hills to hit enemy units. Thus, wasting ammunition :o: and again, masking terrain for maneuver is not possible.

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I am delighted with the prospect of more tanks.... but the current lack of terrain sight masking for tactical maneuver is ruinous to any tank battles.

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I agree, I hope they can fix it, otherwise it won’t be playable with AI

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like to see German tank destroyers in the mix , sometime Sdkfz 162/70 etc 

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Don't know if you noticed, but in the recent email announcing the discount they updated the Soviet Tank Crew poster and now there is a KV-1S in it (before it was an older KV-1 variant)

 

tank_crew_artwork_kv1s_en.jpg

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I dont care if its KV1 or KV1s when I have 7,5 Kwk 42 or 88 mm L/56 KwK36 :P

But thats not important, we need some sort of infantry and thats Im afraid we dont get.

 

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I also worry about infantry. Tank Crew will not be good without it.

 

The lack of certain symbols I can tolerate because it has no effect on gameplay. However, I will not be pleased if a key gameplay element is missing thanks to some outside pressure. 

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Hopefully we will not see tanks with one living crew member driving away to deny a kill. 

 

Also wonder about replacing injured crew. I expect a system borrowed from War Thunder but tweaked to be more realistic. For example, it should not be possible for a single man to traverse the turret and load the gun at the same time.

 

Fighting without a full crew should be so inefficient that most players will choose to abandon the tank.

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I also worry about infantry. Tank Crew will not be good without it.

 

The lack of certain symbols I can tolerate because it has no effect on gameplay. However, I will not be pleased if a key gameplay element is missing thanks to some outside pressure. 

 

I get that infantry are an important part of tank warfare but even without them I think it will be a really good product. Heck, people have sunk huge amounts of time into War Thunder's armored warfare mode and that has zero infantry, artillery (really), or other combined warfare aspects except for aircraft that appear for 60 seconds at a time.

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Jagpanzer iv sdkfz 162 tank destroyer / wishlist 

 

 

sdkfz-162-panzer-iv-70v-tank-destroyer-n

Edited by r153

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Well the Jagdpanzer IV with the L/70 cannon is a late 1944 vehicle, maybe if we get a Bodenplatte tank expansion it could be in there.

Yeah wiki says 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdpanzer_IV

 

  • Jagdpanzer IV (Sd.Kfz.162[1])
with 7.5 cm Pak 39 L/48, developed under the name Sturmgeschütz neuer Art mit 7.5 cm Pak L/48 auf Fahrgestell PzKpfw IV, with 769–784 produced in January 1944 - November 1944.[1]
  • Panzer IV/70 (V) (Sd.Kfz.162/1[1])
was one of two variants armed with the same Pak 42 L/70 gun. The (V) stands for the designer, Vomag. The most produced version, with 930–940 built in August 1944 - April 1945.[1] Equipped with a long, powerful L/70 7.5cm anti-tank gun that could outrange opposing Allied tank weapons, the Jagdpanzer IV /70(V) Lang proved a formidable foe following its introduction late in World War II. The "Lang" (German for "long") in its name was added to distinguish it from its predecessor with a shorter L/48 7.5cm gun

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how high fidelity will the ground be, can the terrain engine compete with the likes of steel armor with real time deformation, undulation, and procedurally generated micro details?

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I get that infantry are an important part of tank warfare but even without them I think it will be a really good product. Heck, people have sunk huge amounts of time into War Thunder's armored warfare mode and that has zero infantry, artillery (really), or other combined warfare aspects except for aircraft that appear for 60 seconds at a time.

 

 

Agreed, it will certainly be very good even without infantry. I just hope it will have what it need to become truly outstanding.

 

how high fidelity will the ground be, can the terrain engine compete with the likes of steel armor with real time deformation, undulation, and procedurally generated micro details?

 

 

It is probably too early to say. As the planned map is rather large and must not overstress this flight simulator engine, there must be some limitations. While there probably will be hills, roads, ditches, fortifications, and destructible trees and fences, I would not expect these features to be exceptionally detailed.

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I imagine so, much the same as current multi crew tank works, with multi crew being an option

 

 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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It is Kursk, so the Panther will be epic.

 

When your entire brigade of Panthers has their engine overheat and burst into flames, then your reserve brigade drives into a swamp and gets stuck.

 

Infantry is a must though. The Germans had to get through line after line of Soviet AT guns and lots of Soviet infantry, almost all with an AT mine or grenade strong enough to kill any German tank. Many German tanks were lost this way, with Soviet infsntry swarming all over th top of an immobalised German tank and chucking grenades into the hatches or through the engine deck.

Edited by hames123

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Regarding infantry and fully destructible environments:

 

Infantry will likely not be modeled. The AI would be a huge CPU drain. I think you can expect machine guns and antitank guns to be manned and represent larger formations but that’s about it.

 

Jason has already said this will not be a fully destructible environment. The game will focus on Tank v Tank combat. Think of it as a combined arms game with air support. The maps will be more, but not fully, optimized for tanks. Probably a little more so, graphically, than the new textures in Kuban and the recent update in the DevBlog.

 

I expect the tanks to be significantly more detailed than the BOS models. (Hoping for tank skins as well.) The interiors should be outstanding and the exteriors improved. The original M1a1 video from a few years ago was outstanding and tanks will get the full treatment this time as opposed to a side/spare time project like the last two.

 

Need to temper the expectations a bit to match the strengths and limitations of the Digital Warfare engine.

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf
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It will be Interesting how the co-op mode will be implemented (and if tanks are integrated) I think it could be a lot of fun with just a couple of multi crewed tanks

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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Regarding the lack of destructible environment, it’s a bit of a problem when one’s tank gets stuck on a hay stack, or takes cover behind a garden shed. It’s needed not just for visuals.

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Regarding the lack of destructible environment, it’s a bit of a problem when one’s tank gets stuck on a hay stack, or takes cover behind a garden shed. It’s needed not just for visuals.

I don't think that is too much of a problem. Just treat both of those objects like clouds but with an alternate destroyed model when a tank is hit next to them. Jason said not fully destructible, not none of the environment will be destructible. I'm sure all of these conversations are happening in-house as well and we will be very pleased with the outcome.

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf

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Honestly, the current tank stuff is quite good despite its simplicity and obvious flaws. I think that it will be excellent once more features are added.

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Panther, vorwärts!

 

Don't forget the light, non-tracked Vehicles please. Most interesting here would be the "Puma" or "Sdkfz 222".

 

Most interesting will be how they include scenarios. Two to three 10km² or 20km² areas of operations for tanks per larger existing map for the aircrafts, fighting over hotspots? Hills and towns?

 

A few boundaries would be useful here. The airmaps are too large to get decent gameplay going. Remember guys, with the speed of 40km/h everything will be ten times as far as with your average aircraft.

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They said there would be a 100x100 km Kursk map. Since this is not huge, I assume the entire thing will be suitable for tanks.

 

I do not know what will happen to the old air maps. Perhaps they will remain in their current form. Maybe new objects can be added to replace the old indestructible stuff.

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Actually super stoked for the AAA.

 

The list needs way more AAA to be honest, needs to have at least 1 SPAAG per nation.

 

Mk19 for the US

Crusaider for the UK

Wirbelwind for Ger

Zsu-37 for USSR.

 

while they are not in time frame for the battle i have to say AAA is one of the most fun items in Warthunder.  heck even static Guns here will be fun like 88s, and 3.7inch guns 

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Since everyone is chiming in on what afv's they'd like to see I thought I'd join in the fun.

 

Taking into account the production numbers of German AFVs...

 

I've got one word my dudes: STUG.

 

I am REALLY looking forward to this expansion even if it doesn't have the amount of detail as the flight sim aspects... BUT Realistic/tank sim players are DYING for games!!! Honestly, by my nature, I would default to playing ground/tank combat over flying. I'm sure I'm in the minority here since we're on a flight sim forum haha.

 

If the development of this expansion into ground combat received the same amount of detail as the flight sim like detailed armor penetration, ballistics, interior ect - they could really tap into a niche market that has been rather dead or the waters have been muddied by those free to play game models that are far from realistic - thus resulting in me rage-uninstalling, leaving the hardcore players absolutely no options unless they play ancient out-dated games. 

 

On another note if I decide to make singleplayer content for ground combat I won't have to stress about historical research and what not like I do for the air-war. It is my natural habitat.  :)

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wish there was also panzer 2 and t60 :)

 

That ^^^ on top of early-war variants of some other tanks as well.

 

Perhaps after "Kursk" we will get more expansions, earlier and later in the war. I would personally prefer earlier stuff. But I understand the average normie just wants to cruise around in a King Tiger... I'm more of a Stug III F/8 ninja myself.  :ph34r:

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I don't mind lack of destruction, if we can destroy fences or these wooden boxes and not get stuck on it, then it's all i need :P also hope you can destroy AT guns etc by driving tank over them.

And it would be fun to drive sdkfz251 :P i know we won't get infantry but halftruck with ability to capture destroyed AT guns would be cool, like you brought new team and a gun, old one gets replaced heh :P

 

 

 

I'm struggling to see how I would get more than 5 minutes out of the tank gameplay, with the points made already (infantry/environment/AI) possibly conspiring to be too much in the way of negatives.

But, would all these vehicles be available on MP or SP campaign maps as AI? Is the payment therefore ' just' to be able to control them?

it will probably work like BoX expansions, you wont be able to play single player on this map, use these tanks but will see them on stalingrad etc controled by AI, you will also be able to play on this map in multi, just like now even if you don't own BoK for example. You wont be able to control these tanks, maybe just old panzer 3 and t34 we have now.

Edited by InProgress

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I'm really curious about the damage model.

 

Most tanks were put out of action after first penetration as crew bailed out. But that is hard to force or simulate in games. Yet in tank combat is crucial (in my opinion).

 

I think it would be pity to see the same survival ability as in WT when burning tanks with half dead crew sniping back their attacker, change crew positions (not mention repairs).

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I just hope they don't intend to aim for the WT crowd. Instead my highest hope would be something in between Steel Fury and the Tank part of Red Orchestra I.

Edited by Blooddawn1942
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