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Discussion of Bodenplatte, Flying Circus and Tank Crew Announcement...

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Hiro, if they want to go into that detail, it might be just too much effort for the gains you make, we'll see. the P-51is not the only aircarft using the meredith effect. 109 radiators do too  ;)

Edited by 6./ZG26_Asgar

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Hmm, Pacific was skipped (temporairly) in favor of this 1945 setup because of technological and technical issues. However I thought it was obvious to the team and members here that there are and will be some technological differences requiring a new code to be introduced to take advantage of all those. Whether we talk about Meredith Effect, MW-50, gyro-sights, M8 API and M20 APIT rounds or others its a heck of work but it must be done. Those details define a lot of aircraft to be introduced and 1944/1945 state of technology. I see no option to skip them.

 

The Pacific variant was delayed because of the extreme difficulty and expense of obtaining the necessary technical information about Japanese machinery (not least because the documentation is in obscure Japanese and hard to locate) and the daunting problems of modelling entire ships and their systems in a timescale that is appropriate. Yes, a Western Europe variant also requires a lot of technical enhancement but the data is much easier to accumulate and model. You could have (bits of buggy) 'The Pacific' and no company or this option and a continuing company.

Edited by Lensman
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Just as is MW-50/water-methanol injection for P-47D as it is for 190s and 109s. Those details make the difference.

meredith effect brings a couple km/h, MW-50 adds up to a couple hundet horsepower and was almost standard on most late war 109 variants. i wound't say it's a detail

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its a must! hopefully they will find time do do this..

 

talking about MW 50 and Gyro Sights.

 

but the Meredith Effect might be a bit hard to programm but I dont know

Edited by MrFies

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To be fair, Mr Petrovich was very clear and said the Meredith effect was not in game ... YET. He was not aware of it but they didn't shut down the idea.

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I'm sure with modeling the jets of the 262 they will find a way to handle the Meredith effect.

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I'm sure with modeling the jets of the 262 they will find a way to handle the Meredith effect.

 

At least with Midway they mastered the withdrawal method...

Too soon??  Ah, never mind.  :happy:

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You can probably model the effects of the Meredith effect, without modeling the Meredith effect explicitly. Does that make any sense to anyone else?  :wacko:

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Tanks! Yea, oh yea! :salute:

 

More tanks and more tanks. Oh yea.

 

For those of you that possibly grinned at my constant desire and expectation of new driveable tanks on these forums in the past. OH YEA.... MORE TANKS COMIN! :o:

 

Oh, did I mention that I like tanks and that there are MORE tank columns on their way for us? :biggrin:

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At least with Midway they mastered the withdrawal method...

Too soon??  Ah, never mind.  :happy:

I was taught those who practice the withdrawl method eventually need a Midwife........pregnant pause. 

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Does anybody have an idea of what exactly the team will be doing to improve the AI in the game? This was something I hoped would be asked in the teamspeak QA, but no one asked :(

 

I am hoping they make the AI value its life a little more.

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You can probably model the effects of the Meredith effect, without modeling the Meredith effect explicitly. Does that make any sense to anyone else?  :wacko:

It makes perfect sense. It is in very meaning of the verb "to simulate" = to do or make something that looks real but is not real.

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but the Meredith Effect might be a bit hard to programm but I dont know

Doesn't have to be simulated to gain the benefits. Artificially lowerig the radiator drag and adding a bit of thrust for certain radiator opening might be enought to acchieve a similar effect (the Meridith effect itself is hard to capture precisely so 100% accurancy is not a great concern).

 

If they intend to modle it regardless it shall be told that all aircraft will benefit from it. Not only the P-51.

Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka

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I really do not care about the postponement of the PTO project. I wouldn't have bought this title anyway. The announcement of BoBP is very good news indeed. I already pre-ordered.

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meredith effect brings a couple km/h, MW-50 adds up to a couple hundet horsepower and was almost standard on most late war 109 variants. i wound't say it's a detail

So what qualifies as detail and what as a must have? Your approach is very arbitrary. What if I say "not all 109s had MW50 so it can be skipped, its just a detail", how is that any different from what you said?

 

Anyway, I think that all of it is very important, although I hope they do all they can to get those planes close as possible to RL.

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I'm seeing a lot of nastiness and heat in here. Knock it off. Stay cordial please or I'll be forced to delete stuff. Discussion about the Teamspeak chat should go in that thread.

 

Jason

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Authors name is actually Alfons Schertl, "Peter Henn" is a pseudonim.

 

SCHERTL, Alfons. (DOB: 15.04.20).

 

01.42 at Zerstörerschule 2.

10.42 trf to III./ZG 26 then to 2./NJG 5.

02.43 at JFS 2 (Zerbst).

01.04.43 promo to Oblt./A1.

05.43 trf to Erg.JGr. West.

21.06.43 trf to 6./JG 51.

02.44 Staka 6./JG 51.

23.04.44 WIA.

19.10.44 trf to SG 151.

14.11.44 Oblt., trf to 9./SG 4.

 

 

I have this book. You forgot to mention, that he feared P-47 also a lot (he was shot down by P-47's  on several times). "Achtung! Thunderbolts!" cry on radio-chatting usually brokes his gruppe like a wolf breaks rabbits.

 

You may also mention, time when that book was written - Cold War. Americans were superior in ex-Luftwaffe pilots memories books, Russkies were all lame ducks :)

 

Anyway, 1944 aircrafts were not faster each other in twice or several times. Doesen of km/h faster or slower aircraft dont became guaranteed coffin for its pilot. Hptm. Eckerle, kommander of I./JG54, was shot down over Leningrad in a fight vs I-153, wich is - how many ? - 150 km/h slower? Oblt. Ostermann (first JG54 "centiruon") and Oblt. Kittel (top Fw190 and top JG54 ace) both were killed by Il-2 pilots!

 

Tha fact is, that german interceptors - no matter single-engined ot twin-engined - lost a war over Germany in winter 1943-44, when americans improved their tactiks (sending numerous groups of P-38, P-47 and eventually P-51's of fighter sweep all around known Luftwaffe airfields on the route of bombers. Bf109, Fw190, Me410 and Bf110 - again - all of them - suffered extremly heavy losses before even reaching bombers, just caught in a climb by a large group of Yankee fighters out from sun. Yes, each of us remember january, february and especially march massacres with bloodly Bf110/Me410 losses (wich somebody like to use as an argument of Me410/Bf110 was sh#t), but in same time they just keep silence about same (and usually even worse) level of losses of single-engine fighters! 

 

Interceptor need a "vorfeld", a clear field to gain altitude. No matter what aircraft it is - Bf109 or heavy Fw190 or Me410. Cought up in a climb, interceptor had no chance to survive. This was prooven in BoB, this was prooven in Battles over Germany.

 

Bf110 has proven to be a not the best concept in 1940 when they were themselves used as escort for He111 and Ju88 and soon were in need of a Bf109 escort due to climbing casualties. The plane proved to be still useful as a night fighter though.

 

Me410 was an improvement of the very poorly recieved Me210 and was continuation of the idea that those planes can be great fighter-bombers. They are not bad when comes to speed and armament and can be used very effectively against heavy bombers, but once they are met with Allied dedicated fighter planes they are at a serious disadvantage, at least without any element of suprise or numerical advantage, which by the 1944 and 45 was becoming qute rare for Luftwaffe.

 

Me410 and Bf110 were a good solution to the bomber problem, but only if those bombers didn't have escort fighters. They were definitely not a on a level of a P-38 or P-51 when it comes to dogfighting capabilities.

 

"Speed is life and altitude is life insurence" Is a saying for a reason. Just because one can loose to a slower plane, that doesn't mean that speed is not an advantage in a fight and more importantly in survival. If you are faster than your oponent, and you can feel that you might loose the next combat engagement, you can always turn your tail and run away and deny that kill. Again you are trying to prove a statement with just anecdotal reference that doesn't change the whole reality of things. Just because someone was killed by a slower plane, doesn't mean that speed is not an advantage in combat scenarios.

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There is a lot of misunderstanding of whether meredith effect is or should be modeled, it is not a system that needs to be modeled just aerodynamics, used in reducing drag in cooling systems, effecting performance, it is not mysterious, was used in 109, spitfire, mosquito and many others. In P-51 it was just used much more efficiently, but it did NOT produce more thrust than the drag of the cooling system, this is just a myth.

The 'effect' does not have to be modeled, just the results on performance,

if the in game performance matches real world figures to a reasonable level the 'effect' is there on all aircraft :)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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Lets get the party started.  No time like now for planning ahead.  We are organizing the 7th Panzer Division now and getting a jump on things.  We are fully aware that the game is planned for late next year, but this will give members a place to organize and discuss the unit composition and training ideas.  Anyone interested check us out here:  https://simulatedaircombat.enjin.com/7thpanzer

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soon were in need of a Bf109 escort due to climbing casualties.

Bf110 as a long range fighter (zerstorer) NEVER had an escort of Bf109 during Battle of Britain. The only Bf110-equipped Gruppe  during BoB, wich almost always flew under escort - note - under mixed Bf110+Bf109 escort - was dedicated fighter-bomber Erpr.Gr.210. 

Edited by I./ZG1_Panzerbar

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Me410 was an improvement of the very poorly recieved Me210 and was continuation of the idea that those planes can be great fighter-bombers.

It may be a surprise for You, but Me210 was poorly recieved in 1941 with short tail.

When it returned to the front in autumn 1942 in North Afrika, it prooved extremly capable heavy fighter, fighter-bomber, intercepter and even fighter vs fighter (there were numerous clashes between Me210's of III./ZG1 against Spitfires and P-38's). You may note, that Allied fighters need almost 1,5 month of intencive fighting to shot down first Me210 on 18.11.1942!  Overall, III./ZG1 lost only 14 Me210's as write-offs and damaged on various state to allied fighters from early october 1942 to the end of april 1943! The lowest attrition level was never cought by rare Luftwaffe Gruppe in Afrika.

 

As a fighter-bomber, it played critical role in defencive fights in Tunis in winter and spring 1943. Kasserine battle was the example of III./ZG1 close-support of Army.

 

Not that facts You used to read in "Legendary Spitfire" and "P-51 is da best fighter of the world" books, isnt it?

Edited by I./ZG1_Panzerbar
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I'm giddy like a schoolgirl.

 

Tempest is by far my favorite aircraft of the war. I wish it was the Mk II, but that would just be ridiculously overpowered. And the Mk V looks better (by "better", I mean scary-ugly), so there's that.

 

Given the way multiplayer in BoX goes, this is going to be a relatively tough era for the Germans. As good as the D-9 is - and it's damn good - the Tempest should be able to run her down quite handily on the deck. Meanwhile, top cover of Mustangs will keep the Dora from dominating at mid-high altitudes. The K-4 and G-14 will help at those altitudes, but their control issues at high speeds will be a problem, and they still shouldn't have the speed to match a P-51, though climb and turn will be to their advantage. The A-8, though one of my favorite aircraft, is seriously outclassed against anything the Allies bring, except maybe the Spit Mk IX at low altitudes (but this depends on which version of the Spitfire we get - a LF with high boost is going to give even the Dora problems). I suspect mission designers will have to include 262s more often than we expect.

 

The fighter-bomber advantage shifts firmly towards the Allies as well. The P-38L and P-47D are going to seriously outmatch the 190s, nevermind the 109s.

I'm keen to see whether the career Luftwaffe pilots stick to their 109s out of brand loyalty, or shift to the Allied side if it appears that the better fighters are found there.

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They were definitely not a on a level of a P-38 or P-51 when it comes to dogfighting capabilities.

They are interceptors, same as Bf109G with W.Gr.21 or Fw190A-8/R8 with additional armor and 30mm guns. Who, in their turn, also had crippling losses in the same conditions, then they were jumped in climb by a hordes of P-51/P-47/P-38's. Most times, during 1944, Bf110/Me410 had better kill/death rate compare to Bf109/Fw190 Gruppen in reichdefense.

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What next for this great sim? Playable submarines & boats so have land, sea & air combat in one sim.

 

Roll on payday so can get my pre-orders in.

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Not that facts You used to read in "Legendary Spitfire" and "P-51 is da best fighter of the world" books, isnt it?

Da best fighter should be Hellcat if we look at amount of victories against the losses.

But I bet they dont write that one in the "Why is the 109 the greatest fighter in the world"  :P  

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I'm keen to see whether the career Luftwaffe pilots stick to their 109s out of brand loyalty, or shift to the Allied side if it appears that the better fighters are found there.

 

Take a look at my profile picture. Now what do you think, if I jump in to P-47 every once in a while is that just because "it appears that the best fighters are found at allied side"? ;)

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Question for Mr Jason and devloppers.

Nothing about the planes but more about the game engine:

1° The NWE map you'll do has some specifities regarding to the railroads and roads in general: There is a lot of tunnels.
Will Tunnels be represented? Asking that because especially,  you won't be able to remove the famous Ramagen region known for it's famous bridge.
Is this specification build in the game engine? Can you generate tunnels in the terrain?

2° Related to question n°1 : Bridges: there is a lot of them, a big number of them. will you use generic bridges or will you create specific bridges form some areas? (ramagen for example :-) )

EDIT: I forgot: Do you intend to release some official map building tools?

thank you
Kr

 

Edited by JV69badatflyski
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Question for Mr Jason and devloppers.

 

Nothing about the planes but more about the game engine:

 

1° The NWE map you'll do has some specifities regarding to the railroads and roads in general: There is a lot of tunnels.

Will Tunnels be represented? Asking that because especially,  you won't be able to remove the famous Ramagen region known for it's famous bridge.

Is this specification build in the game engine? Can you generate tunnels in the terrain?

 

2° Related to question n°1 : Bridges: there is a lot of them, a big number of them. will you use generic bridges or will you create specific bridges form some areas? (ramagen for example :-) )

 

EDIT: I forgot: Do you intend to release some official map building tools?

 

thank you

Kr

 

 

Regarding tunnels, they do not really need to build them. They can design a nice entrance and exit. The train would enter by going through a vertical polygon (face of the tunnel entry) be clipped and then not be visible hidden by the terrain surface. Under the terrain surface it is a big void it is empty. And then the train comes out the same way. In fact the train follows the tracks on the land surface, there is no change except that it becomes invisible when under the mountain.

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Da best fighter should be Hellcat if we look at amount of victories against the losses.

But I bet they dont write that one in the "Why is the 109 the greatest fighter in the world"  :P  

To your point , when the Luftwaffe tangled wit the Hellcat and Corsair the Two USN/RN aircraft came out on top. In fact when the 109 tangled with the wildcat/RN  it to lost.Not only was the USAAF  aircraft superior so were its US  Navy counter parts.Additionally, I think a good argument can be made that the Corsair can be considered among the best fighters of WW II- topic for a different thread

Back on topic,the Luftwaffe lost more aircraft to the West vs the Eastern front, yet the West was every bit of the target rich environment . As Bodenplatte is the perfect example. It is about time this outstanding Sim gave some love to high performance aircraft . Many Thanks to the entire dev. and Jason for what I am sure was a tough decesion.

Edited by Frequent_Flyer

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I'm keen to see whether the career Luftwaffe pilots stick to their 109s out of brand loyalty, or shift to the Allied side if it appears that the better fighters are found there.

In my experience, based on some servers that would switch between eras (or games like World War II Online that had era progression), it'll be a mix.  Some people always want the BnZ advantage for that high K/D.  Others are brand loyalists.  There are a few who really like a challenge and switch to the underdog side.

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No need to dump the P-38 at all. The modus operandi of the Dev's is to include AC which are tangentially associated to the theater (BOS 190 A3 anyone?) so the P-38 which was ACTUALLY in theater is fine. I'd actually dump the G-14 from the German side and include a twin engined Me-410 for the strike/bomber guys. It is a very futuristic if slightly underperforming AC and was also part of the ACTUAL operation. Interesting, topical, do-able and would go a long way to assuage the legitimate gripes of mud movers for BoBp.

 

From a numbers POV, the P-38 modeled IMO should NOT be the L model. If you accept that 8AF stopped flying the Lightning in Oct 1944 then you're left with three 9AF fighter groups (9 squadrons) flying it.  I spent a couple hours scrolling through Joe Bauer's serial number website. I found a total of five L model losses attributed to 9AF groups (1 from the 370th FG in Dec 44, and 4 from the 474th FG in Mar and Apr 45). On the other hand, most ETO L model losses are from 15AF groups based in Italy, not to mention SWP and CBI. By a very large margin the P-38 losses by the 9AF groups from the Fall of 1944 to VE day are J models.

 

If...if you want the most representative P-38 flown in the winter of 44/45 by 9AF, it should be the J model. And to riff on Panzerbar's criticism of the P-38, the european high altitude environment was not kind to even the J's engines. Of course some can and will argue that if the devs go with the P-38J-25 (only 210 built versus 1400 Block 15s), it will look identical to the L to include the dive/combat "flaps" (actually speedbrakes). 

 

As to your suggestion...no argument from me.

Edited by busdriver

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Lets get the party started.  No time like now for planning ahead.  We are organizing the 7th Panzer Division now and getting a jump on things.  We are fully aware that the game is planned for late next year, but this will give members a place to organize and discuss the unit composition and training ideas.  Anyone interested check us out here:  https://simulatedaircombat.enjin.com/7thpanzer

Any chance for something like this but more Poland related or even Russian? I would love to drive the "Rudy" T34-85 I know there is the T34 in game but maybe a skin for it would be nice, also the 7thpanzer looks good, I love the video :D 

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... And to riff on Panzerbar's criticism of the P-38, the european high altitude environment was not kind to even the J's engines. ...

The engines suffered from wrong operational procedures. They used to run it high rev, low MAP for cruise as they were used to do. They thought it was a better setting to speed up from when bounced. But once they discovered that for turbocharged engines, you fly low rpm, high MAP, problems were solved to a large degree. They also gained plenty of cruise economy like that.

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Love It !

Circus! Absolutely great idea.

I hope there are some addons added !!

 

 

-Very good Devs! - :) 

Edited by Tomi_099

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Love the Bodenplatte setting.

 

Any chance of seeing the Gloster Meteor added to the lineup after release, it would be great to have jets for both sides and historically it seems they were deployed there during this time: 

 

 

"Judging the Meteor F.3s were ready for combat over Europe, the RAF finally decided to deploy them on the continent. On 20 January 1945, four Meteors from 616 Squadron were moved to Melsbroek in Belgium and attached to the Second Tactical Air Force,[110] just under three weeks after the Luftwaffe's surprise Unternehmen Bodenplatte attack on New Year's Day,"

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