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I just moved this to a more apropiate section of the forum.

 

It has been discussed to death already but if you want to keep it up, do it but next bias accusation or personal insult, topic will be locked and rules applied.

 

Haash

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There are no unlocks, just choices of historic loadouts or occasional different sub types or models, they are available to everyone EXCEPT on some servers for timeline or restrictions due to historical Rarity. Years ago you needed to complete small amounts of SP campaign to access the 'extra' loadouts, this proved very unpopular and was changed a long time ago

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Well there it is, that's actually the answer to my original question. Thanks for the response and clarification :)

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I flew some AI missions and was knocking the VVS out of the sky left and right (except the il2), then I flew online for a couple days and was confused that I couldn't bag a thing. That was the reason for my question, thanks to all that responded.

 

 

Technical considerations aside, human pilots online are much more of a challenge to hit than AI pilots.

 

Well, some of them are.

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Technical considerations aside, human pilots online are much more of a challenge to hit than AI pilots.

 

Well, some of them are.

 

Yes I'm learning that the hard way :)

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Practice practice practice - the adage aim small miss small applies here as well. High deflection shooting is almost an art and will take considerable effort to learn well. Barring any of that I highly advise adopting a Hartmann esque style of shooting where you hold fire until the enemy plane fills your reticle. Precision is important - learning to shoot accurately will make you a better pilot.

 

von Luck

 

Hmmmmm ..... 

 

There are a couple of situations where that's feasible.  When you creep up on an unsuspecting victim, typically from a low six position or, on occasion, when bouncing an unsuspecting victim; but is doesn't work in a DF.  Aiming for the wing root, the pilot's head, the motor, the rads or whatever; all totally unrealistic in a fast-moving DF.

Edited by Wulf
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Really? Are you sure what you are saying?

Well then please give us a link to a similar video where a Ju88 or a H111 is hit by a hundred shots,, with the crew still alive, and that makes two airkills...

 

S!

It's easy: quick mission>your plane yak-1>enemy plane stuka. Good luck!

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Hmmmmm ..... 

 

There are a couple of situations where that's feasible.  When you creep up on an unsuspecting victim, typically from a low six position or, on occasion, when bouncing an unsuspecting victim; but is doesn't work in a DF.  Aiming for the wing root, the pilot's head, the motor, the rads or whatever; all totally unrealistic in a fast-moving DF.

In a dogfight/energy fight you are typically making deflection shots at varying deflection depending on how hard both pilots are maneuvering. This is one of the few times your opponent is wings vertical and a great time to achieve a wing root strike not the opposite. Opportunity is what you as a pilot make of it. There was a kill cam youtube posted here in which fully half or more of the kills were wing off deflection shots. If you convince yourself something is impossible or too difficult to work toward it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Take from this what you will but I hope you understand accuracy is possible even in tense situations. Try to expand your perception of when you think you need accuracy and work toward fulfilling that need.

 

von Luck

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I cant hit even stationary targets like AAA every time.

 

For the 109 guns and the destruction, or lack of it. It can be easily checked,one could collect lots of data from stats, like Carl_infar did some examples, and then compare it to what we know, 3-6 hits was most of the times enough to down a fighter.

Here in the forums was( some months ago), some other metadata or some big list from a week or two from some server, similar but more detailed than Carl´s.. Dont find that topic anymore. That could end this debate. Or should the 109 guns never change, no matter what? If so, then i wonder why???

 

edit, Remember that 109 guns were, the first year, much more powerfull than now.

The answer to your question why should/shouldn't they change is because this is almost entirely subjective. Combined with the fact the actual means the Mine rounds damage targets is not portrayed and suddenly you have plenty of room for doubt. There are a lot of aspects to this discussion - how the damage is represented, the damage model of the aircraft, net code, generally terrible personal accounts. The waters are so murky from all the stirred up mud you can barely see past the surface. So not changing things might seem silly at first blush but if you think about it maybe it's wise to wait. Often when this discussion inevitably arises you see a lot of posts with very little concrete evidence. A lot of people feel strongly but don't collect any data to confirm or refute their hypothesis.

 

 

My opinion on this generally speaking is most axis pilots are awful marksmen and spread their damage all over a plane. Yea 3 shots on average get the job done - when in the right spot. It may take 6 rounds if you are just spraying everywhere. Combined with the what is in my opinion an over modeled tail section for Russian planes that takes more effort to destroy and I think you but the grey area where pilots feel as though the round isn't powerful enough. Russian cannons perform perfectly well from dead six by contrast and AP is modeled generously. In my opinion Russian pilots have fewer concerns as to where to shoot compared to German pilots. If compared Russians probobly have a similar 3 strikes to achieve a kill but since there is no need for them to avoid say dead six shots they are generally more affective. By contrast German pilots that are good will have similar statistics but bad pilots will slide the average to 6 strikes to achieve the kill.

 

And that folks is why I preach from the gospel of accurate gunnery. Should the MG151/20 get buffed - maybe - if the evidence is compelling. But presently better marksmanship is a good way to improve your experience.

 

von Luck

Edited by von-Luck
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There is nothing wrong with either the damage models or the 20mms.

 

The 109 has very little armour, the mg151 is very powerful with a flat trajectory, and it's weak tail was a noted disadvantage by actual pilot's.

Edited by GridiroN

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My chief quip about the current system is that the manner in which mine shells are dealing damage deprives them of one of their strongest advantages - mine shells should be fabulous for destroying control surfaces which is simply not the case in its present implementation.

 

As for tails I merely note that the 20mm mine round does a poor job destroying the opponents tail control surfaces. Which makes the dead six attack less affective.

 

von Luck

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Blah blah blah ...  Try to expand your perception of when you think you need accuracy and work toward fulfilling that need.

 

von Luck

 

 

Yup ...okay, thanks.

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Yup ...okay, thanks.

you can only lead a horse to water - you cannot make them drink.

 

von Luck

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As for tails I merely note that the 20mm mine round does a poor job destroying the opponents tail control surfaces. Which makes the dead six attack less affective.

 

That definitely depends more on the target than the weapon.

 

I fly the MiG-3 a lot, and next to fuel fires, losing the rudder and vertical stabilizer in one hit is the most common fatal damage I receive. It’s not the entire tail section, like what happens with the 109, but the result is the same: instant spin that can’t be recovered.

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Technical considerations aside, human pilots online are much more of a challenge to hit than AI pilots.

 

Well, some of them are.

 

Well said. I flew agains AI 4x max. 3 kills in MP. Much much better. i train aerobatics in QM above the airfield. Train agains humans. Different logic.

Edited by indiaciki

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I fly the MiG-3 a lot, and next to fuel fires, losing the rudder and vertical stabilizer in one hit is the most common fatal damage I receive. It’s not the entire tail section, like what happens with the 109, but the result is the same: instant spin that can’t be recovered.
 

 

The MiG is easily the most weak russian plane in terms of DM (not performance wise), it seems to catch fire easier than the other types. Shooting its rudder/elevator off seems about equal with the other vvs planes, cant tell about the control cables though.

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The MiG is easily the most weak russian plane in terms of DM (not performance wise), it seems to catch fire easier than the other types. Shooting its rudder/elevator off seems about equal with the other vvs planes, cant tell about the control cables though.

 

I would generally agree - my experience in the 109 has been that unless you dump almost 5 rounds into say a Yak's tail they can roll over and get back into the fight.  IL2's and Pe-2's also seem highly resistant to mine rounds to tail control surfaces.  I'm not especially bitter about this but I see it as a lack of flexibility.  Russian AP rounds don't seem to care if your shooting from deflection, dead six pursuit, any of that - and Russian planes are in my opinion better gun platforms because of this.  The 109 is a fabulous plane but you need to be aware of where you are shooting to ensure your target is destroyed.  

 

von Luck

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The MiG is easily the most weak russian plane in terms of DM (not performance wise), it seems to catch fire easier than the other types. Shooting its rudder/elevator off seems about equal with the other vvs planes, cant tell about the control cables though.

 

 

The MiG is a bit of a glass cannon... well, not really a "cannon", more like a glass pea shooter. No way not to love it though.

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Love the Mig3 forces you to fly with energy conservation in mind. The dual 12.7's are deadly and in a pinch she can do some surprising manuevers. Great plane - wish she could dive faster but c'est la vie.

 

von Luck

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The MiG is a bit of a glass cannon... well, not really a "cannon", more like a glass pea shooter. No way not to love it though.

Cannons would be correct, It can carry two of those shvaks

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Yea Gridiron, you know it for sure, and when it will change, then you will know that too. Right?

 

You are after reaction, so  :salute:

 

I never said I knew it for sure, I said the manner in which the 109 takes damage is both sensible given it's design and in line with sources that were previously provided in other threads by real 109 pilots. If you disagree, you should provide sources...

 

As far your accusations, I don't really understand because it makes no sense, so I'm going to assume you're trying to claim that I just suck up to the devs, and say that if you truly believe that you clearly don't know me, haha.

 

I have no horse in this race; I almost never lose my tail in the 109. 

 

My chief quip about the current system is that the manner in which mine shells are dealing damage deprives them of one of their strongest advantages - mine shells should be fabulous for destroying control surfaces which is simply not the case in its present implementation.

 

As for tails I merely note that the 20mm mine round does a poor job destroying the opponents tail control surfaces. Which makes the dead six attack less affective.

 

von Luck

 

The devs said having MGSHSS rounds detonating inside planes was an engine limitation. I think currently they've just amplified the HE form the MG151 but I could be wrong.

 

 

 

The MiG is easily the most weak russian plane in terms of DM (not performance wise), it seems to catch fire easier than the other types. Shooting its rudder/elevator off seems about equal with the other vvs planes, cant tell about the control cables though.

 

 

It has a giant engine, so that makes sense, though I don't find the MiG a glass cannon. I find it quite survivable really. Perhaps I'm just a conservative flyer. 

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Hmmmmm ..... 

 

There are a couple of situations where that's feasible.  When you creep up on an unsuspecting victim, typically from a low six position or, on occasion, when bouncing an unsuspecting victim; but is doesn't work in a DF.  Aiming for the wing root, the pilot's head, the motor, the rads or whatever; all totally unrealistic in a fast-moving DF.

That doesnt't mean you shouldn't try. I always try to aim at vital parts, shooting randomly is not very effective At least in BOS you get kills easily even with bad shooting. Currently in DCS you have to aim for speciific part and keep sustained burst to actually do damage, especially against 109s with the .50cals. Shooting down a Yak or LaGG is easy compared to that game. If one has a problem with shooting down another fighter, then something is wrong but not realy with guns.

 

I prefer HMG over cannons, they give you much better accuracy with similar outcome. You do not need to rip a wing off or blow a plane up to get a kill. Just set him afire shooting his tank or hit his tail section and destroy his elevator or hit the engine (if you can get that deflection) and my prefered way of shooting down 109s with a good burst into the radiator.

 

Bf109 is more fragile by natrue with its single wing spar, so it is completely natural that one well placed 20 or 23mm shot can take that wing quicker than in a 190 or P-40 where there are 4 (or was it 5?) spars holding the wing.

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Since the OP is a newcomer and was asking about a perceived lack of punch in the 109’s guns maybe it would be good to mention that this is not a specific 109 thing but more connected to the in-game damage modelling which seems to have problems modelling HE damage and especially Mine shell type damage. In addition, AFAIK the in-game AP drills straight holes meaning they are very effective in dealing out damage. So the DM seems to be optimistic when it comes to AP and pessimistic when it comes to mine shells. This hurts German planes more than Russian since the former relied on mine shells while the latter didn’t. This is also why I would hope that fixing this is on the developers short list because it really detracts from the fun of flying German fighters and the historical accuracy of the sim so I certainly hope this will be addressed before the fielding of the new generation of German planes like the Fw-190A8, FW-190D9 and Me-109G6, G14 and K4. :thank_you:

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Again, if you study recordings a lot like I do - you will see that MG151 is behaving as kinetic round rather than chemical round.

 

You can see this when the round enters and explodes right next to a gunner or pilot and does nothing, instead it will take a direct hit to kill them.

 

For example, this did not harm the gunner despite multiple 20mm rounds exploding right next to him:

 

post-788-0-08626400-1511123055_thumb.jpg

 

post-788-0-55566400-1511123136_thumb.jpg

 

Those hits would do serious harm to the aircrew in real life, severely injuring them or possibly killing them. Unfortunately the 20mm round does nothing unless they get a direct hit it seems.

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Again, if you study recordings a lot like I do - you will see that MG151 is behaving as kinetic round rather than chemical round.

 

You can see this when the round enters and explodes right next to a gunner or pilot and does nothing, instead it will take a direct hit to kill them.

 

For example, this did not harm the gunner despite multiple 20mm rounds exploding right next to him:

 

attachicon.gifIL2 BOS 19.jpg

 

attachicon.gifIL2 BOS 18.jpg

 

Those hits would do serious harm to the aircrew in real life, severely injuring them or possibly killing them. Unfortunately the 20mm round does nothing unless they get a direct hit it seems.

 

In this kinde of situations, both gunner and pilot would have been probably killed or heavily injured.

It's almost clear that the problem with german ammo is HE vs AP related. Nobody here would complain about MG151/15.

 

In such conditions, A20B will be probably worst than Pe-2 if not invulnerable.

Edited by 150GCT_Veltro

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Well I've come to realize my biggest issue was just not being precise enough. Looks like it wasn't the guns fault but user error  :)

 

I've found a bit of a groove with the 109f4 and a 400m convergence. Love the game!

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Are you sure the MG151/20 AP rounds are better than the HE rounds. I use HE rounds only ammo belt when i fly LA-5 and they are exellent. I need the tracers.

The AP belt is much more effect effective provided you are able to hit your target, it also has the bonus of not having tracers

 

Its silly that you can do much more damage to figthers with the mg151/15 compared to the mg151/20 and seeing that the 15mm carries more AP rounds than the 20mm it becomes obvious that the problems is in the dm of the He/AP simulation.

Edited by 3./JG15_Staiger
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The 15mm in the F-2 carries the same proportion of AP/HE as the 20mm, 1/3 AP and 2/3 HE. The gunpods are the ones that carrry 1/2 AP 1/2 HE.

 

Firing only the gunpods in the 109 vs the two 20mms in the Fw 190 which have the more HE belt could give a good comparison if the AP in the MG 151/20 is better than it's HE.

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard
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Of course you should try, but its very difficult if the enemy do any moves. I mean you have to take lead to your shot and in 109 you cant make much correction to your flight path at speeds 500kph and above. Very close range shots are possible if the enemy fighter is prophanging, "cross in the sky". Or those situations Wulf Mentioned.

 

Do you mean that in DCS it´s harder to down a 109 than in BOX? And in general any fighter is harder to shoot down in DCS.  Its guite easy to down 109 in BOX now, if you just hit it. And it doesn´t matter much where you hit the current 109.

 

Can we please stop that assumption, that all LW pilots are only complaining because they are gamers, who want easy kills, its childish. We are adults and most of us want BOX to be accurate sim. Look those Pe2 videos. No real Pe2 could survive that. If german bombers can do the same, its also not right, and should be corrected.

In DCS the 109 is the toughest plane to destroy, mostly because it is small and due to the way the DM works. What you have to do in DCS is that you have to hit a single part a certain amount of times for its HP to go down. The numbers seem to be simillar for all planes, but the 109 is a smaller plane and those parts have smaller sections that can be damaged.

 

So for example you have to hit the central part of the wing 40 times (approximately) so that the HP goes down to 0 and the wing falls off. You can hit the whole 109 100 times and nothing will happen if you are not focusing your fire. You have to be precise and better yet shoot at the perfect convergence of 1000ft, or your fire will just annoy the 109 driver there. The only thing susceptible to damage (and it is quite random) is the engine govenor that can be even damaged from behind (possibly the DM part is the whole feuselage), but sometimes you can hit the engine directly and it runs smoothly, just the visual damage will show some white or black smoke, but the plane is completely operational, and I mean completely, like nothing happened.

 

The MG131 though has HE rounds and its splash damage allows to deal damage to things like engine even when the hit is far away from it. My friend got hit with a single MG131 HE round to the wing tip (checked on tacview) and it damaged his fuel pump and RPM govenor. So basically one hit on the Mustang can (depending on RNG) completely destroy your engine, or just take HP or kill the pilot etc.

-----------------

I do think that people assume that MG151/20 was this amazing super killer that can easily destroy any plane with just 2 hits. It is a good cannon, but even the footage from the war suggests that it was deadly when used precisely. There was a video of a soviet plane (La5?) beeing hit 7 times by MG151 and nothing happened and the video ended, probably the pilot died or bailed or something else happened, but no major external damage outside of that. And people expect that MG151 will destroy a fighter reliably with 2 hits and they are not wrong, but that requires precision.

 

And yes, I know its hard, it cost me much frustration in DCS, but it is the way to do it. Even one 7,62 bullet will end the fight if it hits the pilot's head. :/

 

PS. By comparison the 109 in DCS is 5xtimes harder to kill than a Yak-1 or LaGG-3 or even P-40E. Those planes are fragile by that standard. And I understand that DM is not perfect, but it is way closer to realistic depiction than in the other simulator.

Edited by =LD=Solty
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I do think that people assume that MG151/20 was this amazing super killer that can easily destroy any plane with just 2 hits. It is a good cannon, but even the footage from the war suggests that it was deadly when used precisely. There was a video of a soviet plane (La5?) beeing hit 7 times by MG151 and nothing happened and the video ended, probably the pilot died or bailed or something else happened, but no major external damage outside of that. And people expect that MG151 will destroy a fighter reliably with 2 hits and they are not wrong, but that requires precision.

 

 

Nobody says this, but MG151/20 did shoot down B-17 and B-24. So....

We could say the same about VVS weapons: people assume that a pair of 12,7 could easily completely cut off the 109 tail section, as we see for ex. when we attack a Pe-2.

Edited by 150GCT_Veltro
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Especially the last clip is a great example (because its so close and steady). Multiple hits on the B17, some stuff flies off but the plane continues. Crew is probably in a bad shape, but the plane itself doesn't care much, even after over 20 hits.

 

Of course you can destroy a B17 with MG151. Just aim properly at the enignes, fuel tanks, bomb bay (if the bomber hasn't droped bombs yet) an most importantly the cockpit. There is a reason why Luftwaffe prefered frontal attacks and immediately after those Split-S to the ground to run away.

 

P-47 pilot R.S. Johnson also came back from a mission with (if I recall correctly) 21 hits from the 20mm MG151 and with so many MG hits he gave up counting. It is a good cannon, and a very powerful one, but that doesn't mean it can destroy every plane just by hitting it a few times. You have to hit the plane few times into the right spot (wing root, engine etc.).

Edited by =LD=Solty
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B-17 in the video, as we can see, are "ghost ships", very sad considering what it does mean for the gunners. This does not happen with Pe-2 gunners, even if loaded of 20mm.

Edited by 150GCT_Veltro

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Ever wonder why modern jets have 20mms which fire at 6000 rounds per minute?

Because 20mm rounds are not howitzer shells, and to ensure a kill you need a lot of rounds on target...  Seems to me watching the video's that the 20mm is pretty damn effective...

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But its well known fact, that 3-6 hits from MG151/20 was enough to down WW2 enemy fighter most of the times.

...in the same general location.

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So is it fair to say that firing from the target's 6 is probably the worst position as far as damage odds? I understand that all aircraft have different strengths and weakness locations, but as far as a general rule of thumb to be applied to all aircraft, is it better to avoid direct 6 oclock shooting?  

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6 o'clock shooting seems fine if you have a good loadout of AP or lots of time on target without a gunner shooting back. Gunpods have a greater number of AP rounds and help immensely if you're tasked with Pe2 hunting.

 

That being said, it's not like you would choose not to shoot from dead 6... You get an opportunity to put rounds into the enemy, you take it regardless of perspective or loadout.

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Especially the last clip is a great example (because its so close and steady). Multiple hits on the B17, some stuff flies off but the plane continues. Crew is probably in a bad shape, but the plane itself doesn't care much, even after over 20 hits.

 

Of course you can destroy a B17 with MG151. Just aim properly at the enignes, fuel tanks, bomb bay (if the bomber hasn't droped bombs yet) an most importantly the cockpit. There is a reason why Luftwaffe prefered frontal attacks and immediately after those Split-S to the ground to run away.

 

P-47 pilot R.S. Johnson also came back from a mission with (if I recall correctly) 21 hits from the 20mm MG151 and with so many MG hits he gave up counting. It is a good cannon, and a very powerful one, but that doesn't mean it can destroy every plane just by hitting it a few times. You have to hit the plane few times into the right spot (wing root, engine etc.).

most planes were going down not immidately after a few hits, but maybe a few minutes after. 

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