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Went back to BMS today... Nope.


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#1 Mmaruda

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 00:52

So I got this jet fighter itch in the morning and reinstalled BMS (cause you ain't gonna do better with modern day combat planes. Period).

 

In any case, the whole magic is still there, the awesomeness of air-to-air refuelling, the dynamic campaign and launching slammers at dots on the FCR... But!

 

Yeah, dogfighting in the Viper is tedious at best. At least that is how I feel. You'd expect it to be something epic, Ace Combat style drama and... It's just not there.

 

Don't get me wrong, BMS is still the best modern jet sim ever made and it's going to be hard to top even some years from now. But, moving to BOS, there is just something gritty and manly in flying them old prop fighters. Each time I take off in the Mig-3, full mixture, no pussy recommended flight configuration, it's such an exhilarating experience, I can hear Max Power playing in my head louder than the engine noise. And then there is the combat! None of that "Darkstar, request bogey dope" chore over and over again, until you get a positive and pickle them slammers. In BOS there is an effort to be made, there is hellfire roaring in your engine and them .50 cals pouring down hate and discontent, shredding 109s, each time you pull that trigger... It's raw and dirty and so engaging... While in jets... Even if you occasionally get up close and personal to greet the commies with heaters and guns it's just... I don't know. Not really much flying required. Just hit that burner and pull the stick all the way...

 

I guess what I am trying to say here, is that with BOS you get to fight in the machine, whereas in Falcon, you're just sort of there, doing a job. Sure it's an awesome job, but at the end of the day, doing 9Gs at 330 knots with full burner doesn't really feel impressive, nothing close to having your piston engine roar and cough fire while you crank up those RPMs to the full with closed shutters and full-rich mixture knowing there is just a small window of time to pull of what you intended, while praying to the gods of air combat, that your engine lives just these few more seconds until you can squeeze of a burst of them guns.

 

IL-2 has spoiled me and the Mig-3 has spoiled me even more. I actually think it might be a good idea to do a disgusting anime-waifu skin for the damn thing. Be warned. :)


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#2 CanadaOne

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 01:20

I think I still have my Falcon 4 ring binder manual somewhere.


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#3 Gambit21

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 01:24

I think I still have my Falcon 4 ring binder manual somewhere.

 

I trashed mine many years ago.


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#4 CanadaOne

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 02:16

I trashed mine many years ago.

 

 

Those were the glory days, when flightsims came in fancy boxes with fancy manuals. :cool:


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#5 lightswitch

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 02:21

I love BMS and IL 2. They are two very different sims though. To get a good one on one experience you need to fly online against someone who can really employ the jet. That being said BMS really shines through with its ground attack weapon employment. For me BMS is more of a wild weasel simulator. Love getting in low and fast and taking out Sam nests.
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#6 CanadaOne

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 02:39

I've bought and loaded up few games with the anticipation of Falcon 4. I followed the weekly updates prior to launch for probably a year. I think most of us Falcon 3 flyers were cult fanatics by the time it hit the shelves.

 

The only one that beat it was Janes WWII Fighters. When I finally found a store that had it in stock, I took the day off work and sat on the bus for 50 miles to go to the city and buy it. Great flightsim and a great online community!


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#7 [CPT]CptJackSparrow

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 02:49

I love me some bms.

When in PvP it's great fun plus it doesn't suffer from "this week's meta" syndrome, ie let's fly il2 as fighters. That coupled with the only one who sees your logbook is you, no ego stroking.

The bms guys have done amazing work. Love the Israeli theater, no 120s, no Harms, good gritty Python4 slugfests

:)

Edited by [CPT]CptJackSparrow, 13 November 2017 - 02:51.

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#8 lightswitch

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 02:53

Love a good 1980s Sinai campaign. Can’t wait till the MP code is fixed so Falcon Online can’t get PvP running again.
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#9 [CPT]CptJackSparrow

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 03:06

Yep a 80s Israeli or the modern day F16I Sufa.

The Korea 2012 is great fun, DPRK gets modern toys. I was always partial to SEAD & DEAD flights myself, arriving ahead of the strike but behind the sweep guys, waiting to kill anything that dares emit a radar.

Magnum!
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#10 ShamrockOneFive

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 03:12

I've been playing a bit of DCS recently and while its fun. I can relate to the OP.

 

Modern aircraft are different beasts with a lot of systems to manage and success and failure seems to often balance on a pinhead where you either win outright or lose completely. I'm still mastering the art of the missile fight. In IL-2, the WWII subject matter seems more visceral and there's a lot less mystery. You see a guy and you fire your guns and its all very up front and personal by comparison. IL-2's graphics and sound work also come to the fore here with beautifully and consistently modeled aircraft where I find some of the other series have some real hits and misses.

 

IL-2 is maturing into a really top notch sim. I think 3.01 will perhaps clinch that more than any other patch.


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#11 [CPT]CptJackSparrow

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 03:21

Oh I agree, I've been doing il2 since the demo in 2001. Il2 is gritty and personal combat. It's the best at what it portrays.

BMS is, as has been mentioned, mastering systems (bore sighting your mavs prior to fence check etc) and the application of those systems in a efficient manner.

I enjoy both, leaning more towards il2 since it's easier for our new people to learn.

If bms ever does a new gfx engine and improves the terrain, I'd be over the moon happy.
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#12 busdriver

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 03:51

Yeah, dogfighting in the Viper is tedious at best. At least that is how I feel.

While in jets... Even if you occasionally get up close and personal to greet the commies with heaters and guns it's just... I don't know. Not really much flying required. Just hit that burner and pull the stick all the way...


ROFLMAO....and to think the USAF wasted all that money on me way back when.

Edited by busdriver, 13 November 2017 - 03:52.

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#13 [CPT]CptJackSparrow

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 03:55

ROFLMAO....and to think the USAF wasted all that money on me way back when.

I would really enjoy a MP session, or for that matter a coop campaign in bms with mister Bus driver, that would be a treat.

:)

Edited by [CPT]CptJackSparrow, 13 November 2017 - 03:56.

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#14 lightswitch

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 04:48

I enjoy both, leaning more towards il2 since it's easier for our new people to learn.

This is one reason I love BMS.  You only really get people who are dedicated, not only learning the sim, but also the proper brevity and techniques to employing the jet properly.

 

I can agree a bit with the OP in regards to getting a real flying experience.  WWII pilots were simply just pilots.  Modern pilots are not so much pilots but systems managers, and this is true for almost all professional pilots across the industry.  So i suppose it really depends on what you're looking to get out of the sim.


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#15 [CPT]CptJackSparrow

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 04:54

Indeed. We still call out "fence check" over the flot in il2, we reply to lead with our number in the package 1 2 or 3.

I love both equally. Now if il2 had a bms level campaign, me oh my!
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#16 216th_Lucas_From_Hell

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 12:08

Since the opportunity to go online for TAW has been limited and Random Expert is down for the moment, I've been playing a bit of DCS here and there.

Specifically, I've used the Su-33 and F-5E. I can see why some people see it as tedious but I chalk that up to having the wrong mindset for it. A BVR engagement is an elaborate game of cat and mouse where the first to suffer a lapse in concentration is toast. WVR is similar with the advent of all-aspect missiles, the first one to overstay their welcome in the forward hemisphere buys the farm.

My experience so far shows that the average multiplayer jock from each game could learn a lot from their counterpart. Il-2 pilots have a nasty habit of flying straight at whatever contact they see instead of setting up a proper bounce using terrain, clouds or the sun to refine it. On the other hand, DCS pilots do go 'stick to the dick' and full burner without thinking the second you get within 10km. That and the idiots who turn the radar on at take-off and keep making noise in the friendly RWRs for the whole mission - all they do is say SHOOT ME, I'M RIGHT HERE while also spoiling SA for others. Bunch of sensor addicts.

The F-5E to me is perfect for that very reason. It doesn't have enough missiles to spam mindlessly, the radar is primitive so you can't use it as a crutch, the T/W ratio doesn't allow for reckless constant high AoA/G, and you really need to know how to combine rudder/aileron/elevator inputs in order to be successful. My favourite past time with it is to sneak onto an unsuspecting MiG from behind, go above it, roll inverted, pitch down towards them and then fire up the radar while instantly locking on. The panic is a sight to behold - you'll see the kid jumping from the loud lock warning of the RWR, immediately making an unnecessary break turn without quite locating the assailant, and scrambling to find out what's happening. From above it's a simple matter of observing their reaction, making sure you don't get too close and sending an AIM-9 up theirs. Alternatively, as they'll have lost a lot of energy in panic, you can get an easy guns kill as they flap about helplessly.

I feel like I've become much better as a virtual 1G comfy chair (© busdriver 2017) pilot after experiencing both regularly.


Edited by 216th_Lucas_From_Hell, 13 November 2017 - 12:32.

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#17 ATAG_dB

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 13:33

My favourite past time with it is to sneak onto an unsuspecting MiG from behind, go above it, roll inverted, pitch down towards them and then fire up the radar while instantly locking on. The panic is a sight to behold - you'll see the kid jumping from the loud lock warning of the RWR, immediately making an unnecessary break turn without quite locating the assailant, and scrambling to find out what's happening. From above it's a simple matter of observing their reaction, making sure you don't get too close and sending an AIM-9 up theirs. Alternatively, as they'll have lost a lot of energy in panic, you can get an easy guns kill as they flap about helplessly.

I feel like I've become much better as a virtual 1G comfy chair (© busdriver 2017) pilot after experiencing both regularly.

 

I love the F5 too my fav on DCS.  Quick question Lucas why you even bother using the radar since you have visual contact on him? You just wanna make them...shart lol 


Edited by ATAG_dB, 13 November 2017 - 18:21.

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#18 216th_Lucas_From_Hell

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 14:08

The radar is just for fun, it's nice to see their reaction :biggrin:

When I'm not in the mood for being an idiot I just wait for the tone and launch discreetly like an orderly citizen.
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#19 Mmaruda

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 14:49

Specifically, I've used the Su-33 and F-5E. I can see why some people see it as tedious but I chalk that up to having the wrong mindset for it. A BVR engagement is an elaborate game of cat and mouse where the first to suffer a lapse in concentration is toast. WVR is similar with the advent of all-aspect missiles, the first one to overstay their welcome in the forward hemisphere buys the farm.

 

Agreed, it's all quite elaborate, but as I said, old school gunfights are just that much more visceral and engaging for me. I have always been more of prop-plane type of guy, but I did play almost all the sims available at some point, but eventually decided to drop BMS and DCS simply because I was spending all the time doing training stuff and not really flying missions (each new jet for DCS costs a good chunk of money and I realised I don't have the time to learn all these machines). My original post is basically the realisation, that despite my love for BMS, doing modern jet stuff simply does not give me that joy and freedom (relatively speaking) as the old school fighters do whenever I hear them cylinders roar and them guns rip. Not to mention that in BOS, even being on the receiving end of the barrels, is sort of a jump-scare experience. For some reason, in the old IL-2 it wasn't really that immersive, so it never occurred to me.

 

EDIT: All that said, BMS is really a total blast in coop, with IVC and using proper brevity, you do feel like you are the professional jetfighter pilot. I can't wait enough for IL-2 coop campaigns, and I would flood my monitor with money, if they implemented a radio-like voice chat in game (Elite Dangerous did, so I guess this could be done at some point).


Edited by Mmaruda, 13 November 2017 - 14:52.

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#20 busdriver

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 15:31

I would really enjoy a MP session, or for that matter a coop campaign in bms with mister Bus driver, that would be a treat.
:)

No you wouldn’t, unless I was there for one of the following reasons.
1) you need somebody to be the “designated mort,” because I will die early and often.
2) you need me as a cooperative bandit, because I will die early and often.
3) you like laughing at “gross buffoonery” because I will die early and often.
4) you like laughing whilst hearing an old fart mutter to himself on TS, “oh f*ck me in the heart” as he dies early and often.

I don’t play BMS because it’s too much like work. It requires too much effort for me. Back in the Jurassic era, F-16 pilots’ task was to survive to the merge, then kill the bandit. Air combat has evolved so much that if you get to the merge somebody really messed up.

Edited by busdriver, 13 November 2017 - 15:33.

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#21 Mmaruda

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 15:56

I don’t play BMS because it’s too much like work.

 

You do realize most people around here would sell their mother have that sort of work? :biggrin:


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#22 lightswitch

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 16:10

You do realize most people around here would sell their mother have that sort of work? :biggrin:

And their wife


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#23 216th_Lucas_From_Hell

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 16:12

It's not a job for everyone, not all flight simmers are short-sighted air force academy rejects :biggrin:
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#24 Mmaruda

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 16:14

And their wife

 

Because the kids have already been sold to an uranium mining facility, just to pay for the HOTAS and TrackIR. :lol:


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#25 216th_Retnek

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 17:00

... Now if il2 had a bms level campaign, me oh my!

And it's been the ruin of many a poor boy

And God I know I'm one


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#26 busdriver

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 17:09

You do realize most people around here would sell their mother have that sort of work? :biggrin:

 

Absolutely. I recognize that I have been extremely fortunate. Nowadays I have the same sh*t eating grin on my face whilst towing gliders, and flying taildraggers.

 

Back to your OP...BoX's sensation of up close and personal air combat is a strong selling point for the sim. I'm looking forward to the introduction of Co-op missions. I'll still die early and often.  :o:


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#27 Yankee_

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 18:15

In BOS there is an effort to be made, there is hellfire roaring in your engine and them .50 cals pouring down hate and discontent, shredding 109s, each time you pull that trigger... It's raw and dirty and so engaging.

 

While BMS is definitely very impressive, there's the above to be said to warbird sims. :)

 

Also, hate and discontent.... love it. :)


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#28 Diggun

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 18:18

It's not a job for everyone, not all flight simmers are short-sighted air force academy rejects :biggrin:



True. I'm long sighted.
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#29 Holtzauge

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 18:36

Unfortunately it get's worse with time: Eventually you end up with bifocals....... :acute:


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#30 SeaW0lf

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 18:41

(...) My original post is basically the realisation, that despite my love for BMS, doing modern jet stuff simply does not give me that joy and freedom (relatively speaking) as the old school fighters do whenever I hear them cylinders roar and them guns rip. Not to mention that in BOS, even being on the receiving end of the barrels, is sort of a jump-scare experience. For some reason, in the old IL-2 it wasn't really that immersive, so it never occurred to me.

 

Reading how you describe it, that your pleasure is in the real feeling of combat, in my honest opinion you're still halfway there, because ROF -- as a WWI simulator -- is the cradle of it all and the fighting is exponentially more visceral than WWII. In fact, the feeling you describe going from BOX to BMS and DCS is exactly the same as what I get when I come from ROF to BOX.

 

ROF also has basically the same BOX engine and is in a more advanced stage of detail (it is from 2009), with better reflection, with a limit of 10km visibility that is not as bad for WWI as for WWII planes, unparalleled damage model effects and such. The servers have been emptied for various reasons and some bad decisions, but if you like real combat, I think there is nothing like WWI. The chivalry in the servers is still praised, there is still the culture of lone wolfs and duels and so forth.

 

You should try. 


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#31 Mmaruda

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 18:48

Reading how you describe it, that your pleasure is in the real feeling of combat, in my honest opinion you're still halfway there, because ROF -- as a WWI simulator -- is the cradle of it all and the fighting is exponentially more visceral than WWII. In fact, the feeling you describe going from BOX to BMS and DCS is exactly the same as what I get when I come from ROF to BOX.

 

ROF also has basically the same BOX engine and is in a more advanced stage of detail (it is from 2009), with better reflection, with a limit of 10km visibility that is not as bad for WWI as for WWII planes, unparalleled damage model effects and such. The servers have been emptied for various reasons and some bad decisions, but if you like real combat, I think there is nothing like WWI. The chivalry in the servers is still praised, there is still the culture of lone wolfs and duels and so forth.

 

You should try. 

 

You are on point there, mate! Already ahead of you though, been flying RoF since release, I still have a boxed copy with an awesome map on my most exposed shelf. My only beef with RoF is just... not enough fire under that hood.


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#32 SeaW0lf

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 18:54

My only beef with RoF is just... not enough fire under that hood.

 

Haha, that I have to agree  :biggrin: these WWII birds can pack a hell of a punch...


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#33 Lensman

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 19:05

I was in need of interesting text 'so' I read this post and I .....

Oh never mind.


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#34 ATAG_Invictus

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 19:26

Completely agree with the OPs posts.  I'm still a noob at it, but I like to fly modern stuff for sure...mostly DCS and a wee bit of BMS.  But for me the prop combat experience in BoS and CLoD are superior fun .  Personally speaking...the challenges of BVR are a bit dull.  I really want to get to the merge and plant some cannon rounds in someone's behind...not press a button and then dive for the deck popping flares and chaff.  Sadly the chance to knife fight comes rarely in modern combat....one usually ends up eating an AIM-120 long before they get in knife fighting range.

 

Then again, every once in a while the stars align, the ACM gods smile and you get to have some fun....

 

youtube.com/watch?v=p38xF0UAyfE

 

I should have gone for a guns kill on the second one...but I was in a hurry.  :biggrin:

 

P.S.  I never made it back to base.  F-15C planted me with an AIM-120 enema about 30 seconds after the end of this clip. :lol:


Edited by ATAG_Invictus, 13 November 2017 - 19:30.

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#35 Mmaruda

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 19:34

If anyone wants knife fights and loves BMS, I'd say Israel is the only way to go - Jewish dudes do it the proper way and only pack heaters on their Vipers (unless stuff has changed with updated to the theatre, haven't visited in a while). :good:


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#36 chuter

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 19:37

I've bought and loaded up few games with the anticipation of Falcon 4. I followed the weekly updates prior to launch for probably a year. I think most of us Falcon 3 flyers were cult fanatics by the time it hit the shelves.

 

The only one that beat it was Janes WWII Fighters. When I finally found a store that had it in stock, I took the day off work and sat on the bus for 50 miles to go to the city and buy it. Great flightsim and a great online community!

 

 

Jane's was great fun, though the flying experience was immensely frustrating for its lack of authenticity.  My buddy and I would race headlong across the map searching out and competitively shooting as many Bambi's as we could find in a given period of time.  Then we found a way to increase the Bambi's !!!  They would be bounding across the snowy landscape and when hit would fall flat on their faces and disappear.  (We were just culling the RNG.)


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#37 JV.44/Silas

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 19:49

Jane's was great fun, though the flying experience was immensely frustrating for its lack of authenticity.  My buddy and I would race headlong across the map searching out and competitively shooting as many Bambi's as we could find in a given period of time.  Then we found a way to increase the Bambi's !!!  They would be bounding across the snowy landscape and when hit would fall flat on their faces and disappear.  (We were just culling the RNG.)

 

 

Oh man, I forgot about that.  And the horse-drawn carts.


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#38 216th_LuseKofte

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 19:54

I heard a great deal of good things about BMS, from the BMS users. And I believe them. But too me it wil require a lot more dedicated time to fly , a lot more. This  is the reason I still stick to BOS series, it does not take a whole lot of time, it is fast food and excellent quality. For more study/ learning sim I use DCS choppers. A little A 10 training.

In my opinion or in my head BMS is not worth trying before I can all systems in DCS A 10 C blinded. then I will be in novice department in BMS using years of dedicated hours to even pass status fair to bad pilot


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#39 CanadaOne

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 20:05

Jane's was great fun, though the flying experience was immensely frustrating for its lack of authenticity.  My buddy and I would race headlong across the map searching out and competitively shooting as many Bambi's as we could find in a given period of time.  Then we found a way to increase the Bambi's !!!  They would be bounding across the snowy landscape and when hit would fall flat on their faces and disappear.  (We were just culling the RNG.)

 

 

Ha! :biggrin:

 

Janes WWII Fighters had the best intro of any flightsim ever. And you have to admit, it was a very colourful flightsim.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=xFg-EZ19_Z8


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#40 216th_Lucas_From_Hell

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 20:51

One interesting timeline for modern combat is during the transition from 'traditional' fighter tactics (find, merge, kill, like busdriver said) and the pure BVR engagements. This is before the advent of fire and forget missiles, of course.

In general, in a game atmosphere at least I feel that radars follow the old Chinese proverb - "those who know don't talk, those who talk don't know." When one side has SARH missiles while the other only carries IR, a 2 vs. 2 engagement becomes closer to SEAD than air combat. Ideally the BVR kids want to get their IR counterparts to enter the no-escape zone unsuspectingly. If you're flashing the radar from 200km there is no way they're venturing in there. Bad luck of bad execution however and you'll have the knife fight you were avoiding.
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