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Too many Bf 109s in the game?

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8 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Well, the most important Spits are:

Mk.I 

Mk.II with Cannon Option

Mk.Vb but including Merlin 45M and clipped tips option

LF Mk.Vc including the 45M and clipped tips option

 

Mk.IX with Merlin 61 and .303s

Mk.IX with Merlin 63

LF Mk.IX with Merlin 66 with MK.XVI  Canopy and Cockpit Option

 

Mk.XIV

 

Pretty much 8

 

Seafire, too!

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16 minutes ago, smink1701 said:

Even if it’s historically accurate it’s still too many IMHO. 

 

Well, blame the Germans for building so many of them. Every one that's been modelled is entirely relevant to the theater. 

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4 hours ago, ww2fighter20 said:

Normandy cannot be done because of lack of german operations + main important types (bf109G6 and Fw190A8) are sold already.

 

Nope, Normandy or "to the beachhead and beyond" from 4/44-9/44 can very well be done and would be the perfect fit for NWE operations. 

 

Preparations to Isolate the Normandy Infrastructure - Invasion - Fighting the beachhead - Moving Inland and Breakout - The great swan, all possible.

 

All tactical activities, well within the limitations of the engine. Could work and we´ll get the option to include Spitfire XII, Typhoons, P47 Razorbacks, P51 B/C, Marauders, early Spitfire IX, Me 109 G6 late, Fw-190 A6/A7, Ju 88s/188s, Mosquitos, you name it. perhaps Blenheims and Beaufighters. Me likes that, especially because that would prolong the career from 4/44 to 4/45.

Edited by sevenless
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I believe that the Allied advances in Normandy after D-Day such as the Falaise pocket could be done, probably through a Tank Crew. The D-day part of Normandy, probably not because that would require the devs to make:

1. The Channel map  (Southern England and Normandy)

2. Many ships

3. Many planes

      That seems like a lot of work for a small team to do. I feel that D-Day will likely be covered by Team Fusion Simulations as it will be easier for them to do it than for 1CGS to do it. All TFS needs to do is just slightly update the Channel map, make the ships, and planes. Something I think is anyone's game is Operation Dragoon (Invasion of Southern France).

     

I don't see what everyone's problem is with IL-2 CoD as it states here by Jason " The Dover Series will co-exist beside our Great Battles Series. The two series will not be compatible with each other and likely cover different theaters of the war for the foreseeable future, but together both series will give you many options for gameplay and awesome content to enjoy."

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53 minutes ago, Novice-Flyer said:

I don't see what everyone's problem is with IL-2 CoD as it states here by Jason " The Dover Series will co-exist beside our Great Battles Series. The two series will not be compatible with each other and likely cover different theaters of the war for the foreseeable future, but together both series will give you many options for gameplay and awesome content to enjoy."

 

People just want to save their favorite theaters for their favorite sim. Pretty simple. In a selfish way I do too.

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2 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

Nope, Normandy or "to the beachhead and beyond" from 4/44-9/44 can very well be done and would be the perfect fit for NWE operations. 

 

Preparations to Isolate the Normandy Infrastructure - Invasion - Fighting the beachhead - Moving Inland and Breakout - The great swan, all possible.

 

All tactical activities, well within the limitations of the engine. Could work and we´ll get the option to include Spitfire XII, Typhoons, P47 Razorbacks, P51 B/C, Marauders, early Spitfire IX, Me 109 G6 late, Fw-190 A6/A7, Ju 88s/188s, Mosquitos, you name it. perhaps Blenheims and Beaufighters. Me likes that, especially because that would prolong the career from 4/44 to 4/45.

 

Exactly.

 

All of the interesting air/tactical operations were D-Day + 1 and onwards anyway.

 

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I feel we really need the Spitfire Mk.XIV & various versions of the Mosquito & Ju-88. But more importantly we need heavy bombers.

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Like I said before bring on the 109's if it means revenue.

I couldn't care less about them, but I have no problem with the 109 afficianado's getting more aircraft to be excited about.

 

I'll purchase to support the product, but doubt I'd ever have a reason to boot up a G-10/14 etc etc.

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As many 109s as the team has time to do, but hopefully also some other types. Shamrock made a good point on his blog: that the team was very familiar with 109s and DB605s and therefore it is probably the least difficult a/c to add.

 

I love the way 109s look....in a Spitfire’s gunsight LoL etc.

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I hope the next BoX doesn't have any German or Russian aircraft, and if there are any Spits that they have tail hooks;)

Edited by =AVG77=Garven
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On 2/11/2019 at 12:23 PM, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Well, the most important Spits are:

Mk.I 

Mk.II with Cannon Option

Mk.Vb but including Merlin 45M and clipped tips option

LF Mk.Vc including the 45M and clipped tips option

 

Mk.IX with Merlin 61 and .303s

Mk.IX with Merlin 63

LF Mk.IX with Merlin 66 with MK.XVI  Canopy and Cockpit Option

 

Mk.XIV

 

Pretty much 8

 

I’m not sure this is a good comparison. 

 

The Spitfire mk I and II are out of the current Great Battles timeframe. I note that an appropriate theatre for them would probably also end up adding at least one further 109 (E-4). Right now though, there’s no place for either. 

 

Spitfire mk Vb with optional Merlin 45 - yes. Clipped wings could be added as a mod to the one in-game, if necessary - this mod already exists for the mk IX. 

 

Vc could be useful for a North Africa, Far East or Mediterranean release - again this could probably be done through a mod to the Vb as the main change is to the armament. Depending on time period this could be a mk VIII instead, although this requires more work than the Vc. If we don’t get the above theatres then neither of them are really necessary as both served mostly overseas. 

 

We have the mk IXe with (I think) Merlin 66; the 4x.303/2x20mm ‘B’ armament and Merlin 61/63 could be added to this as mods if we get a release they would fit in. 

 

The mk XVI was just a IX with a Packard Merlin rather than a Rolls-Royce one; the different model designation was administrative much like the P-51B/C (same aircraft, different factory). So it doesn’t need to be modelled separately. 

 

It’s a personal judgement but I don’t think we need a Spitfire with a bubble canopy - I don’t think it adds enough to justify taking up a space. Plus I prefer the look of the razorback, but that’s entirely subjective. 

 

Spitfire XIV with Griffon engine - yes please, would be great to have and fits Bodenplatte. This is the only one that we don’t yet have, that we do need and adds something new. 

 

That’s only three - two in the sim already, one which should be added - and another that’s optional depending on future theatres. 

 

I would be in favour of adding a Seafire - F.IIc (if we get a Med/Italy release or F.III if we ever get to the late Pacific. These would probably need to be done separately but they would add enough to make them worth including in an appropriate theatre with carriers. 

 

One of each Seafire brings us to five. A mk I or II to cover the Battle of Britain would be six. 

 

That’s still quite a few, but six to represent the whole war or three to represent the current time period in the Great Battles series so far. 

 

 

N.B. - The majority of aircraft in the sim use mods to change the core armament (all Il-2s, P-39/-40/-47, all 190s, later 109s, LaGG-3, MiG-3, I-16) and in some cases these changes result in different models of the aircraft in question (190A-8/F-8/G-8, Ju 87D-3/G-1).

Changing the wings of the Vb to make a Vc or IXe to make a IXc would be no different.

Engine mods for the Spitfire already exist so if the IX needed an earlier Merlin that ability is also there. 

 

The La-5F engine mod also set a precedent that mods can be added to aircraft after release. 

 

I’m not trying to stack the deck with Spitfires any more than I’m trashing 109s, I’m just keen to see as wide a range of differing types as possible. Adding some of the above variants with mods frees up valuable plane spots which can be taken with other types (Hurricane, Typhoon, Mustang I/III, where appropriate).

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4 hours ago, Royal_Flight said:

 

Spitfire mk Vb with optional Merlin 45 - yes. Clipped wings could be added as a mod to the one in-game, if necessary - this mod already exists for the mk IX. 

 

We have the mk IXe with (I think) Merlin 66; the 4x.303/2x20mm ‘B’ armament and Merlin 61/63 could be added to this as mods if we get a release they would fit in.

 

A couple of nitypicky corrections because I'm a Spitfire geek. The Spitfire Vb in game is already available with optional Merlin 45. Klaus_Mann was referencing the Merlin 45M which is a somewhat different beast with +18lbs of boost (versus +16lbs) and extra horsepower but at a critical altitude of just 2750ft. Not sure if this is what you meant. A small number of Spitfire Mark V's were fitted with the Merlin 45M with clipped wings and used to intercept 'tip and run' raiders... typically FW190s. These Spitfires were very purpose built and useless at higher altitudes. Absolutely fun to have as an option though! :)

 

We do indeed have the Spitfire LF.IXe (with Merlin 66) and also the HF.IXe (with Merlin 70). There was never a 'B' wing on the Spitfire IX. You'll often see in pilots logs a reference to IX-B which was to denote Merlin 66 equipped Spitfires over the earlier Merlin 61 and 63 equipped IX models. This came about before the F.IX, LF.IX, and HF.IX officialdom came about... and was still used in pilots logs for some time after.

 

As for the armament... the B wing was what you see on the Spitfire Vb with the four .303 machine guns, two Hispano 20mm with a drum magazine of 60 rounds. The C wing had internal changes and was capable of having four Hispano cannons or two Hispano cannons and four .303 machine guns. Four 20mm cannons were used only on the initial batch of Spitfire Vc's shipped to Malta and these were all changed to two cannon. The E wing was the same wing but with the .303 machine gun provisions removed and Browning .50cals fitted in the inner cannon position.

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Too many 109's,,,yes, yes too many. What we really need is the 109g10 to complete the list.

 

The 109 haters fly Yaks. Leave us alone. Give us our 109's

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3 minutes ago, newbravado said:

 

The 109 haters fly Yaks. Leave us alone. Give us our 109's

 

Exactly who are you arguing with?

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8 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Exactly who are you arguing with?

 

He's here for the clinic. :)

 

 

Edited by ShamrockOneFive
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You can never, under any circumstances, have too many 109s.

 

The more the better...better for the sim and better for revenue. 

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I would say, that most of the people fly fighters in this game and the normandy map seems to me is not so appeling from luftwaffe side. If i want to fly something interesting for the luftwaffe I would take rare late german planes. I know they are rare and saw little action , but Its "finally" something different.

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24 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

I would say, that most of the people fly fighters in this game and the normandy map seems to me is not so appeling from luftwaffe side.

 

That's probably the best argument that I've seen for having the Normandy map.

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On 2/13/2019 at 10:16 PM, Voidhunger said:

I would say, that most of the people fly fighters in this game and the normandy map seems to me is not so appeling from luftwaffe side. If i want to fly something interesting for the luftwaffe I would take rare late german planes. I know they are rare and saw little action , but Its "finally" something different.

 

We had a lot of fun with German fighters on the old Normandy map. Both from a scripted campaign standpoint, as well as online.

No there were not that many German fighters in the skies in reality but so what, there were a few.

Make a good mission that's plausible, immersive and fun and I find that's all most players are concerned with. They get to be one of the few Germans in the air, on a particular day...that's all that matters.

 

 

 

 

 

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If France 1944 is an option I would not mind seeing a plane imbalance: seven or eight western allied types versus 2 or 3 German.  Obvious reason: we already have most of the necessary German types. 

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8 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

We had a lot of fun with German fighters on the old Normandy map. Both from a scripted campaign standpoint, as well as online.

No there were not that many German fighters in the skies in reality but so what, there were a few.

Make a good mission that's plausible, immersive and fun and I find that's all most players are concerned with. They get to be one of the few Germans in the air, on a particular day...that's all that matters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would also note that the planes on both sides were evenly matched, the D9 and the K4 owing nothing to any allied plane. If in real life at thay point in the war there was an imbanlace, that was due to shortage of materials and trained airmen - not in plane compairson. So given that the game does not simulate any of the luftwaffe's organizational shortcomings, it certainly does not affect gameplay at all.

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12 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

We had a lot of fun with German fighters on the old Normandy map. Both from a scripted campaign standpoint, as well as online.

No there were not that many German fighters in the skies in reality but so what, there were a few.

Make a good mission that's plausible, immersive and fun and I find that's all most players are concerned with. They get to be one of the few Germans in the air, on a particular day...that's all that matters.

 

 

 

 

 

True, all i wanted to say is that there is nothing "new" for the Germans.

Personally I would like more late rare German planes and expand Bodenplatte, but I will buy what they build and late Bf109G6 would be nice to have.

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Nitpick away - I’m not an expert and I’m happy to learn more. 

 

My main point is how to include enough Spitfire variants to be representative, without using up too many of the five aircraft spaces per side in each release. 

 

 

I accept the reality of the situation that 109s were heavily used by the Luftwaffe in all theatres of war, and that in the opinion of some people we don’t have all versions represented for the current theatres.

There’s also the meta-factor that earlier releases had less elaborate mod options as BoS/BoM still used ‘unlocks’, which for some aircraft were more like ‘power-ups’ (heavier armament, more ordinance, more armour, better visibility) rather than to provide greater variety of types. 

The Spit IX and Fw 190A-8 are a model of how to use mods in the best way, to give a load of variations of similar but distinct aircraft types. 

 

Re: 109s, maybe the best step from a cynic’s perspective is to do them as a collector plane if more need added. There’s guaranteed revenue from fans, it doesn’t take up a space in a later full release, and I can choose not to buy it. 

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@Royal_Flight I can't be sure but I suspect that 1C does a separate plane when a new 3d model is required.  The G2-G4,  for instance, I think was a relatively insignificant changed but it did change the outward appearance of the plane.   The difference between a FW190 A8 vs F8 is probably way more significant. but the basic 3d model does not change.

 

Anyway, that's a guess.

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9 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

If France 1944 is an option I would not mind seeing a plane imbalance: seven or eight western allied types versus 2 or 3 German.  Obvious reason: we already have most of the necessary German types. 

 

The problem with that is that people who start with 1944 won’t have those German aircraft.  I’m not sure there is a good solution other than to force them to buy the older modules.

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39 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

The problem with that is that people who start with 1944 won’t have those German aircraft.  I’m not sure there is a good solution other than to force them to buy the older modules.

 

Good point.  Back to the drawing board ... Maybe bundle some of the existing German early/mid 1944 planes into the 1944 pack.  That would give buyers more planes for the money.  It would not cost 1C anything more in development costs as the planes already exist.  There would still be incentives to buy Bodenplatte (late war allied and German).  It would hurt Kuban sales but I suspect that the increase in Normandy sales would make up for it.

 

Another alternative is to couple maps and plane sets more loosely.  Let the buyer choose 10 planes for each map.  last but not least is to put all of the planes up for sale individually - but that is still going to piss off new buyers if they buy a Normandy map and find they have to pay extra for a 109.

 

Whatever the case, If 1C plans to stay with the war in Europe they are going to have to do some creative stuff.  The fact is that the German fighter stable is pretty complete from 1941 to 1945.  The western allies have barely been started.  Russia has very little after 1943.  Existing customers are not going to pay for the same planes repackaged.  New buyers are going to expect to be able to fly a 109 or 190.  

 

I will leave it to better business minds than I to figure it out :) 

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1 minute ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

Good point.  Back to the drawing board ... Maybe bundle some of the existing German early/mid 1944 planes into the 1944 pack. 

 

The problem with that plan is that you really want those people to buy other modules with the maps.  I’m not sure if there are any really good solutions.

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This is actually a big issue for new comers to the game.  Several of the old BlitzPigs want to get into the "new" IL2, and then they ask "which version should I get if I want to fly online with you guys?"  I do't know how to answer, because the few of us that still fly have incrementally purchased each new edition as they were released, but to have someone new purchase them all at once, and not even talking about the premium planes, is unrealistic for most from a purely financial aspect.

Edited by BlitzPig_EL

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I don't see exactly why this is hard - tell them to buy whatever edition has the planes you fly the most. It's not exactly advanced algebra. 

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3 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

This is actually a big issue for new comers to the game.  Several of the old BlitzPigs want to get into the "new" IL2, and then they ask "which version should I get if I want to fly online with you guys?"  I do't know how to answer, because the few of us that still fly have incrementally purchased each new edition as they were released, but to have someone new purchase them all at once, and not even talking about the premium planes, is unrealistic for most from a purely financial aspect.

 

For years I've been telling people to get Battle of Stalingrad because on sale it goes to 66% off and because the aircraft set works well with Kuban and semi-well with Moscow. It's good enough for multiplayer compatibility with the servers I've flown on anyways. It's a good place to start and people can expand their aircraft set from there. I still am saying Stalingrad is the best place to start even in 2019.

 

With Bodenplatte coming out I may change my tune and say OR Bodenplatte once it's finished. Because I know some folks are going to want to be West Front only and potentially play on servers that are West Front only servers. We'll see how that works out.

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5 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

This is actually a big issue for new comers to the game.  Several of the old BlitzPigs want to get into the "new" IL2, and then they ask "which version should I get if I want to fly online with you guys?"  I do't know how to answer, because the few of us that still fly have incrementally purchased each new edition as they were released, but to have someone new purchase them all at once, and not even talking about the premium planes, is unrealistic for most from a purely financial aspect.

 

So BP will be their best answe likely.

We’ll have to fly together at some point.

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On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 10:06 PM, BlitzPig_EL said:

This is actually a big issue for new comers to the game.  Several of the old BlitzPigs want to get into the "new" IL2, and then they ask "which version should I get if I want to fly online with you guys?"  I do't know how to answer, because the few of us that still fly have incrementally purchased each new edition as they were released, but to have someone new purchase them all at once, and not even talking about the premium planes, is unrealistic for most from a purely financial aspect.

 

I suggest to start with BoS (buy it at a Sales event for small money) and then incrementally branch out from there, but BoS IMHO offers the best start for a newcommers to the series. Once BoBP is out of the door, perhaps around x-mas this year, maybe for the more western world oriented folks BoBP will become the best start for them. It is like asking which console is the best? It is always the one where most of your Friends play.

 

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 6:42 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

Good point.  Back to the drawing board ... Maybe bundle some of the existing German early/mid 1944 planes into the 1944 pack.  That would give buyers more planes for the money.  It would not cost 1C anything more in development costs as the planes already exist.  There would still be incentives to buy Bodenplatte (late war allied and German).  It would hurt Kuban sales but I suspect that the increase in Normandy sales would make up for it.

 

My suggestion would be to make the planes available to everybody, but limit flying them to the folks who have bought the module which contains them. This way everyone, even the folks with just one module can fly against them and encounter them on their missions, but if they actively want to fly them, they need to buy the module.

Edited by sevenless

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I think packs of a/c might be the way to go after BoBp has found its feet, offering potential small marginal revenue with perhaps a discount on the full price of a complete battle if purchased subsequently.

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4 hours ago, sevenless said:

My suggestion would be to make the planes available to everybody, but limit flying them to the folks who have bought the module which contains them. This way everyone, even the folks with just one module can fly against them and encounter them on their missions, but if they actively want to fly them, they need to buy the module.

 

That's the way it works today.  All of the planes can be used in a mission.  You can only fly the ones that you own. 

 

The problem we were discussing is future expansion on the western front.  With the German plane set largely done the question becomes what planes to include for a module on the axis side.  You can repackage existing planes but that is going to make existing customers who already have those planes unhappy.  You can create all new planes but that means you are going to leave the most important axis types out of the new modules. forcing new customers to buy an eastern front module to get those planes - now those customers are not happy.

 

We'll see what 1C comes up with.  I think they are booked through the better part of 2019 anyway, so they have a little time :) 

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19 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

With the German plane set largely done the question becomes what planes to include for a module on the axis side.

Finnlaaaand!!!!

Italllyyyy!!!

:clapping:

 

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5 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

The problem we were discussing is future expansion on the western front.  With the German plane set largely done the question becomes what planes to include for a module on the axis side

 

There are still some German planes they could model for a late spring / midsummer 1944 ETO scenario:

 

- A late-model 109 G-6 with the Erla canopy, tall tail, and optional MW50.

- 109 G-6 / AS

- 190 A-6

- The Me 410, of course

- The dayfighter version of the Ju 88 C-6. Were still in service with ZG1 in the West at the time of Normandy, and it fits 1943 scenarios in the East as well. 

 

That right there would be a pretty good planeset. :)

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What about having a western front pack with, say 6 new Allied planes, 2 new Axis planes, and 4 existing Axis planes?

 

I'd think eventually they'll need to separate things into planes and map packs, but having Western front packs that are heavy on Allies fighters might work? 

 

On the original topic, past the early war 109's, how many versions of the 109 are likely left? Right now all I can think of would be the G-10, G-6 Late, and the G-6/AS. Is there anything else, beyond the earlier E versions? 

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11 minutes ago, Voyager said:

On the original topic, past the early war 109's, how many versions of the 109 are likely left? Right now all I can think of would be the G-10, G-6 Late, and the G-6/AS. Is there anything else, beyond the earlier E versions? 

 

Additionally to G10, G6-late and G6/AS you already mentioned we have G5, G5/AS, G10/AS and G14/AS and we then are complete, methinks.

 

6 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

There are still some German planes they could model for a late spring / midsummer 1944 ETO scenario:

 

- A late-model 109 G-6 with the Erla canopy, tall tail, and optional MW50.

- 109 G-6 / AS

- 190 A-6

- The Me 410, of course

- The dayfighter version of the Ju 88 C-6. Were still in service with ZG1 in the West at the time of Normandy, and it fits 1943 scenarios in the East as well. 

 

That right there would be a pretty good planeset. :)

 

Yep, and that would leave room for a 44/45 eastfront set of G10 and 190 A9/F9 and the late Yak3, Yak9 and La7.

Edited by sevenless

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@sevenless Ok, what was the G-5?

 

And, what was the key difference between the /AS versions? I recall that the G-6/AS has the aerodynamic nose and a high boots engine, but that's about the depth of my 109 knowledge... 

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