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For the Love of God, Please Do Something About PE2 Tail Gunners

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I just spent the last month flying Allied. Though I try to approach bombers from the side, I was flying the P40 a lot, so had to come up on 111's, 110's, and Stukas from behind occasionally. It was dangerous, but doable in a pinch.

 

Last night, I went back to Axis for October. I knew that here, it would NOT be doable, ever; and furthermore I wouldn't need to with the speed of the

axis fighters. The first enemy plane I spotted was a PE2. I was pretty successful staying out of the rear gunner's view. Unfortunately my two crossing passes resulted in the Pe2 passing between my 20mm shots, so I only managed to land machinegun hits.

 

On my third pass, I'm coming in fast from about his high 4 o'clock, about to cross quickly, and just DEAD. About a second later, as I watch my plane from third person, I hear the PE2 start firing.

 

I chased lots of axis attackers last month, and nothing remotely like this happened.

Edited by hrafnkolbrandr

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The Pe-2 is a compound problem consisting of 2 parts:

 

1. A nonsensical damage model.

2. Completely implausible gunners.

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In the forum there have been many discussions about the Pe-2 with many videos ...
And nothing happened.

The russian fighters can park safely without damages on the fragile german bombers with their blind read-gunners
and instead Pe2 almost indestructible that have as rear-gunners Vasilij Zajcev and his clones!

Unfortunately I think nothing will change...

It will be realistic in this way!

 

S!

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In the forum there have been many discussions about the Pe-2 with many videos ...

And nothing happened.

The russian fighters can park safely without damages on the fragile german bombers with their blind read-gunners

and instead Pe2 almost indestructible that have as rear-gunners Vasilij Zajcev and his clones!

Unfortunately I think nothing will change...

It will be realistic in this way!

 

S!

 

And comments like this will never convince the developers to change anything. If you think there is a problem, put together a reasoned, polite, comprehensive report, and submit it to Han for review, or post it in the pinned AI thread in the GD forum. 

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And comments like this will never convince the developers to change anything. If you think there is a problem, put together a reasoned, polite, comprehensive report, and submit it to Han for review

Don't worry I don't want to convince anyone, it would be enough to play IL-2 to convince themselves!!

If things are this way it is because they want it to be so!

 

After all, somebody talked of luck when by Pe2 his rear-gunners destroyed an enemy fighter... 

Thankfully, when the fighter was aiming for a final blow, a lucky burst from one of the defensive turrets detonated his ammo.

;)

S!

Edited by ITAF_Cymao

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Is there any evidence that Pe2 gunners are better at tracking than those of other planes? Isn't it just the combination of a 12.7mm gun combined with a very fast and maoeuvrable platform responsible for its lethality? I feel like I get hit all the time by gunners from crazy angles, but a single rifle caliber round usually isn't lethal. It's pretty unique in this sense, the only other bomber that can boast the same kind of armament is so large, unmanoeuvrable and slow that you can always set up perfect attacks.

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The Pe-2's "feeling" is a dead horse i'm afraid.

 

This is an old video but......

 

 

There's nothing more to say. Han has answered several times about it, and the last one is reported in the update 2.010:

 

 

11. Bf 109, Fw 190 and some other planes durability is fixed (it was undeliberately lowered because of the many earlier changes in these aircraft). Now twin longeron Soviet fighters with delta-wood wings are roughly 20% more durable than Bf 109 fighters which have single longeron wings, while Fw 190s with triple longeron wings are roughly 20% more durable than Soviet fighters. P-40 is even more durable thanks to its five longeron wings. Pe-2 and Bf 110 planes are roughly twice more durable than Soviet fighters while IL-2 fits somewhere in between Pe-2 and LaGG in terms of combat durability;

 

So everything is fine as it is.......

 

...but, as stated above:

 

The Pe-2 is a compound problem consisting of 2 parts:

1. A nonsensical damage model.
2. Completely implausible gunners.

 

Pe-2 is actually an immersion killer because it is "a nonsensical" itself. Common sense would have to suggest us this thought; "How should have to be a B-24 or a B-17 compared to this Pe-2?".

 

Just a Lutwhiners feeling of course.

 

Peace and love.

Edited by 150GCT_Veltro

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Is there any evidence that Pe2 gunners are better at tracking than those of other planes? Isn't it just the combination of a 12.7mm gun combined with a very fast and maoeuvrable platform responsible for its lethality?

 

Add also the good field of fire of the 110th series turret (which I think it's the main "offender" here) that easily cover the upper emisphere from where the attacks are carried...

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The Pe-2's "feeling" is a dead horse i'm afraid.

 

This is an old video but......

 

 

There's nothing more to say. Han has answered several times about it, and the last one is reported in the update 2.010:

 

 

So everything is fine as it is.......

 

...but, as stated above:

 

 

Pe-2 is actually an immersion killer because it is "a nonsensical" itself. Common sense would have to suggest us this thought; "How should have to be a B-24 or a B-17 compared to this Pe-2?".

 

Just a Lutwhiners feeling of course.

 

Peace and love.

 

Are other defensive gunners incapable of hitting in this situation? I still don't see any real evidence of there being anything special about the Pe2s capabilities. Fluke shots happen and the 109 is not known to be particularly resilient. Unless you can prove that other gunners cannot pull this feat this proves nothing. I also don't understand what Han's quote proves exactly in your view? That twin engine attackers are notably tougher than fighters? Unless he is lying it is the same for 110 and Pe2, so how is there any unfair edge for the Pe2? You don't mention the 110 as having an 'unfair' damage model or being an immersion killer?

 

It seems clear that all gunners in the game are better than they could realisitically be, it would be logical that the Pe2 would benefit the most from this.

 

The real question is if you would want to nerf the Pe2 gunners artificially below those of other planes, to compensate for it having superior equipment and flight characteristics.

 

Or, obviously, make the statement that no bomber should be able to defend itself against fighters. But that is more a gameplay decision.

Edited by Windmills

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As said above, it's a dead horse but the question remains: what about B-17 and B-24?

Edited by 150GCT_Veltro

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As said above, it's a dead horse but the question remains: what about B-17 and B-24?

 

What is a dead horse about this, that the Pe2 is better because it has superior guns and flight characteristics? That you will just have to deal with it because there is nothing special about its gunners capabilities?

 

It seems fairly clear that all gunners are capable of unrealistic accuracy in order to give individual attackers a decent chance of surviving against a fighter. This seems by design and was the case in nearly all sims. This works because most bombers ingame have relatively light defensive capabilites, either being armed only with rifle caliber guns or being a big and slow target. When you combine HMG armament with being a fast and manoeuvrable platform, is it really strange that the Pe2 benefits a lot from this design and surpasses the other planes in abilities?

 

Yes, if B24 and B17 were ingame with current accuracy they would be insane, but how is that a relevant question? They aren't and gunners are designed in the way they are because machines with these defensive capabilities aren't there.

 

I refer you back to the last questions I asked in my post.

 

 

 

The real question is if you would want to nerf the Pe2 gunners artificially below those of other planes, to compensate for it having superior equipment and flight characteristics.
Edited by Windmills
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Hm,I just got killed in a Pe 2 by a 109 G4.Stats say 1550 shots fired,not a single one did hit.Looks like my overpowered rear gunner has his day off today.. ;)

 

If you get killed, stats always say that you spent all your ammo. Would be good to change that also, actually, but that is a different topic. 

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Run some Quick Mission test against the dreaded Pe-2, all attacks conducted from 3k on 1k from dead 6' (worst possible attack approach to give an hand to the turrets) with several passage required (my aim is bad with the MG151)

 

Bf 109 F-4 (bulletproof glass) vs Pe-2 Ser.35: no hit received; target shot down

 

Fw 190 A-3 (no modification) vs Pe-2 Ser.35:  no hit received; target shot down

 

Bf 109 F-4 (bulletproof glass) vs Pe-2 Ser.87:  no hit received; target shot down

 

Fw 190 A-3 (no modification) vs Pe-2 Ser.87:  hit received on last attack, no damage sustained; target shot down

 

Bf 109 F-4 (bulletproof glass) vs Pe-2 Ser.110: hit received on last attack, frontal glass and aiming sight shattered, pilot not injured, engine giving out black smoke but not seizing; target shot down

 

Fw 190 A-3 (no modification) vs Pe-2 Ser.110: no hit received; target shot down

 

Pretty random results I would say from a plane that allegedly will kill you on sight no matter what...

 

Moreover both series 35 and 87 seemed to have way less precision and  to be slower to react than series 110 turret.

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What difficulty level was your Pe-2 set at?  :russian_ru:

And was there a blister turret fitted?

 

Edit: Series 110 means blister turret right?

Edited by =TBAS=Tripwire

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What difficulty level was your Pe-2 set at? :russian_ru:

And was there a blister turret fitted?

Series 110 is the one with the blister turret...

 

I kept them on Veteran to have them fly like bombers and not like fighters trying to turnfight, but this will just make the issue shift... What if is the level of the AI to influence so much the aim? (moreover, is it setted at the same level of the pilot AI? How it is decided on a player aircraft?). In this case I start to doubt the mission parameter (setted by the mission makers) and not the base game engine and the devs work...

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Pretty sure the PE2 gunners are set to ace in WOL. There some controversy at one stage as other bombers were set to normal in the same missions. I assume this has been corrected and everything is at ace now, but I haven't checked. Not sure what they are set to in TAW, I haven't opened up one of those missions.

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I'm less concerned with the AI accuracy, agression or weapon type as I am with their durability. I'm OK with the Pe-2 being a tough nut to crack as well. What I doubt the most, however, is the gunner's longevity. Il2 '46 had the A-20 superman rear gunner and he seems to have found a new job with the Pe-2. Dumping tons of rounds, considering the explosive and shrapnel effects of 20mm ammunition, into the gunner's compartment rarely seems to kill the bastard. It is unlikely this unarmored fella survives multiple passes IRL. This is the only thing which needs looking into as far as I am concerned.

 

#killthebastard

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I think this topic should be in the WoL thread, trying to persuade the administrators there to knock the Pe-2 gunner down a notch or two in skill. 

 

(The only thing I wish that the developers would do about rear gunnery, and it applies to more than just the Pe-2, is to remove the ability to aim the rear gun with your head off boresight using an Aiming Cue.  That is gamey to the extreme.)

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