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Yaks in vertical manoeuvres?


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#121 blitze

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 09:05

Agree with Haash. What's your experience - vertical fighting with the Yak 1? That's the point. 2-3 days ago when I started vertical maneuvers with the Yak I got rammed by two 190s a one 109 in one night. Probably out of frustration because they couldn't place a single shot (WOL server).  I do respect kamikaze pilots but does anybody intend to land? I don't get it. 

Try MP on TAW or the Finnish Server, people tend to try and achieve getting back to base one way or another.  The TAW 4min death time out helps as well.  You will though see VVS down low and LW up high on TAW whereby the Finnish server most are on the deck pounding away at objectives, in general.  Also easier to play either side on the Finnish Server helping team numbers if you so desire.


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#122 Dave

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 15:59

It goes without saying that you should always try to have an energy advantage over your opponent.

Obviously, but the problem is that for VVS this is much easier said than done, so it starts to sound pretty patronising after a while.

So for the purposes of discussion, let's limit ourselves and let's assume you are flying a Yak-1b at 3000 metres and find yourself more-or-less head on with a 190A-3 and you're at Co-E, which means you're at the same altitude and speed (give or take).  So you're on neutral terms with the Fw 190.

Not even close. In the scenario described the 190 has more than 50% more energy. Kinetic energy is proportional to mass. So is potential energy due to elevation. So at the same altitude and speed the 190 has 4420kg/2880kg (or about 1.53) times the Yak's energy. So the Yak is already at a significant disadvantage.

Your advantages are in turn and sustained climb, and the 190 pilot probably knows his zoom climb and roll rate are among his strengths, so there's a strong chance he will go for a zoom climb after you merge.

The 190's initial zoom climb is MUCH better, due to momentum (which is again proportional to mass). Its power-to-weight ratio is close to identical and its sustained climb performance is so very slightly less than the Yak's (about 3% - at lower fuel load it may even be as good or very slightly better) that the deficit will never overcome the advantage built in the initial zoom from 3000m.

... before steepening his zoom so that you can't pop the flaps, zoom with him, and shoot him from below.

Pop flaps???? Are you mad? Flaps == drag. Not something you want when trying to outclimb someone.

NB: I used the 190A-8 mass from wikipedia as I don't have the 190A-3 value at hand.
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#123 Dave

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 16:28

I fly yaks quite a bit, though less lately. You can fly a long curve and let the bagger cut the turn, using geometry and lead pursuit to catch up.

Thats not a "drag-n-bag" its an energy trap to force a flight-path or wing-line overshoot. Which, incidentally, is your most accessible tactical play in a Yak because the bandit will almost always be behind and above you with excess airspeed, and simply legging it isn't an option.
Note that it is very difficult to consistently pull this off if your ping is shit, due to the difficulty in judging the hard turn with ~400ms of lag and the game using what would appear to be client side hit prediction calculated by the shooter.

For the OP:
If you can manage to turn to the bandit's cold-side following either a merge or overshoot, and either they are overloaded with other threats or the turn happens to take you downward against terrain that hides you long enough for them to lose sight, bugging out may be possible. But this is generally not the case.
If you can't bug out you WILL have to turn and fight at some point - its just a question of if, when and how you are able to effect it. I find the J-hook energy trap to be most effective with a single opponent and even with 2 if they aren't well coordinated. But as I said above - depending on lag this can be hazardous.
There is no by-the-numbers maneuver that works. You have to judge each situation and your opponent and make tactical choices on the fly based upon how shit is going, how sloppy or good your opponent is, how much energy you can afford to spend on an angles play etc. You don't always have to turn fight a 109. It is possible to energy fight the energy fighter in some circumstances but this takes a lot of practice and much more skill and patience than for the 109 pilot. It is usually not possible due to the circumstances not allowing you the time needed. Whatever tactic you choose in a Yak you need to get it over and done quickly before the rest of the LW turn up.
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#124 JtD

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 17:09

Not even close. In the scenario described the 190 has more than 50% more energy. Kinetic energy is proportional to mass. So is potential energy due to elevation. So at the same altitude and speed the 190 has 4420kg/2880kg (or about 1.53) times the Yak's energy. So the Yak is already at a significant disadvantage.
The 190's initial zoom climb is MUCH better, due to momentum (which is again proportional to mass). Its power-to-weight ratio is close to identical and its sustained climb performance is so very slightly less than the Yak's (about 3% - at lower fuel load it may even be as good or very slightly better) that the deficit will never overcome the advantage built in the initial zoom from 3000m.


Physics say that in zoom climbs from this situation, the lighter aircraft generally has the advantage and in this particular case both aircraft are fairly evenly matches, the Yak-1b might come out slightly on top - assuming combat power on both and zoom down to stall speed. Total energy (as in v²*m/2) doesn't matter jack, because for all zoom climb purposes, you need to dive by mass. Specific energy is just proportional to to v²/2+g*h, so opcode is right when speaking about co E in that situation.
Since I've had this discussion a hundred times already, feel free to hop into the game and see what altitude you're gaining when zooming up from the same speed and altitude down to stall speed. It will be much more convincing than I'll ever be. Either you're right and the Fw190 will zoom 30% higher than the Yak, or I'll be and there'll be little to chose. Don't forget to switch to second supercharger gear in the Yak.

Proper mass of the A-3 (can also be found in game) is 3850kg without outer cannons.

You can also try zooming with the Fw190 first with 10% fuel and no cannon/ammo, then with 100% fuel, wing cannons and full ammo. Check which one is zooming higher.
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#125 Dave

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 17:23

Physics say that in zoom climbs from this situation, the lighter aircraft generally has the advantage and in this particular case both aircraft are fairly evenly matches, the Yak-1b might come out slightly on top - assuming combat power on both and zoom down to stall speed.

 I understand the point you are trying to make - the additional mass of the 190 requires more energy to climb. My contention was with the assertion that they were co-energy - which they were not.

Edited by Dave, 19 September 2017 - 17:34.

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#126 JG13_opcode

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 18:18

Hi Dave,

Standard weight for the in-game A-3 is 3850kg. I think it's obvious that I typed "zoom, pop flaps" in the wrong order. If you fly online you will know that Soviet pilots hanging on the prop with flaps out at the top of the zoom is a very common sight.

As for the name of the maneuver, whether you call it an "energy trap" or not (a term I've never heard until now) is IMHO irrelevant. Two aircraft working together are always better than one, something that certain members here seem to enjoy denying. The prevailing wisdom appears to be that there is simply nothing you can do, and that all soviet aircraft are simply aerial target drones.
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#127 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 18:31

Two aircraft working together are always better than one, something that certain members here seem to enjoy denying.


I'm pretty sure that no one has actually ever denied that.

The prevailing wisdom appears to be that there is simply nothing you can do, and that all soviet aircraft are simply aerial target drones.


Also not true. You can hope the 109 driver makes a bad mistake. But if he doesn't, you're probably screwed. Or your wingman is screwed. Either way, the 109 driver has a big advantage.
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#128 JG13_opcode

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 20:58

I'm pretty sure that no one has actually ever denied that.

Also not true. You can hope the 109 driver makes a bad mistake. But if he doesn't, you're probably screwed. Or your wingman is screwed. Either way, the 109 driver has a big advantage.

Your posts explicitly stated the only point of a wingman were to be bait while you ran away.

Either you were employing hyperbole or you just contradicted yourself. Doesn't matter, I guess, just more useless trolling from you as usual.

I broke my own rule of not responding to obvious trolls: congrats on getting me to take the bait.

My last post on this topic. Have a nice day.

Edited by JG13_opcode, 19 September 2017 - 20:58.

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#129 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 23:14

Your posts explicitly stated the only point of a wingman were to be bait while you ran away.


2 is still better than 1 for the guy who gets away. If he was alone he'd be dead.

Of course, that assumes the German pilot is competent. If he isn't, then the wingman can kill him while you act as bait. But it's not exactly comforting to know that the German has to make some really bad mistakes in order for you to survive.
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#130 Dave

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 05:49

Hi Dave,

Standard weight for the in-game A-3 is 3850kg. I think it's obvious that I typed "zoom, pop flaps" in the wrong order. If you fly online you will know that Soviet pilots hanging on the prop with flaps out at the top of the zoom is a very common sight.

While it might be a common sight (I have only seen it once or twice) it can't possibly be an effective tactic. You simply can't "hang" on your prop - thrust to weight is well below 1. Anyone stupid enough to try it is just making themselves a very slow (briefly stationary) target with zero control until they fall and regain maneuver speed. People who complain about it have just been shocked to learn that going vertical without sufficient speed to quickly exit guns range can't outrun bullets. But it's a very low probability gamble for the pursuer given the cost of failure is being out of airspeed and defensive below a higher energy bandit.

As for the name of the maneuver, whether you call it an "energy trap" or not (a term I've never heard until now) is IMHO irrelevant. Two aircraft working together are always better than one, something that certain members here seem to enjoy denying. The prevailing wisdom appears to be that there is simply nothing you can do, and that all soviet aircraft are simply aerial target drones.

I've reread your description and it seems your intent was not to describe the maneuver I am referring to. I had a 1 v 1 picture in mind, but I see you were describing a 2 v 1 defensive position with the offensive single sandwiched in a turn - still not drag and bag though as an actual drag'n'bag really requires airspeed superiority to work. It relies upon the lead aircraft pretending he can be caught by the "offensive" bandit but stringing him along fixated while the wingman with superior energy closes rapidly for an undetected kill. What you describe is a sandwich which relies on geometry and can be easily evaded by the higher energy bandit.

The energy trap is a 1 v 1 defensive maneuver where the slower or angles fighter is out front and uses geometry to graduallly increase angular velocity while increasing closure to force an overshoot with a bandit fixated on trying to maintain pure pursuit. The angles fighter needs to manage energy to stay at or above corner speed until the overshoot and reversal so that he can avoid an energy depleting guns defense and outturn the bandit for a low deflection shot at the overshooting bandit. It is tricky to get right as the angles fighter needs to passively manage the bandits energy as well to minimise their overshoot speed, still generate an overshoot and maintain enough angular velocity to prevent the bandit from gaining lead all while trapping them into thinking they can pull lead if they just pull a little harder and burn energy. It is actually energy fighting in an angles fighter and can be equally thought of as being offensive while in front. It's the classic card for a slower but better turning Yak to play when 1 v 1 with a 109 but as I've said before it is very easy to misjudge given that we play online with varying connection latencies. I get shot down a lot performing this maneuver - usually by an opponent who doesn't appear to be pure pursuit let alone leading. On local servers it works every time.
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#131 Dave

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 06:09

This introduces another difficulty for the Yak pilot. Most angles plays require very precise timing, and the Yak pilot is more often than not defensive due to not being in a position to disengage at will like a 109.
Both of these factors compound the negative effects of network latency for the Yak - because he is the defensive fighter and using timing-sensitive tactics.

1 v 1 it can still be managed by guesstimating the lag. But being defensive and unable to disengage keeps you trapped, unable to escape while the bandits reinforcements arrive. Then it becomes a lot harder very quickly. The only rule of thumb I have for 1 v X is to try to keep all the bandits on the one side of you to help you maintain SA. If you couldn't land a shot early on you should probably have tried to turn cold-side after an overshoot and bug out in the weeds. Remember tracer is visible for miles.

So how do you avoid the possibility of his buddies turning up with massive energy advantage? Climb so that you are above them to begin with ... oh wait.

Honestly the only really reliable tactic is to fight as part of an element or flight, but because the majority of career sim pilots have chosen to fight at an advantage the VVS is mostly populated by loners and air-quakers. I say mostly - there are those who fly together but the game really doesn't do much at all to support let alone encourage this very important historical aspect of air combat. I think this is actually the game's weakest area at the moment.
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#132 216th_Lucas_From_Hell

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 06:42

Yak pilot is more often than not defensive due to not being in a position to disengage at will like a 109.


I have to disagree here. Just because the Yak-1 cannot disengage when it feels like it doesn't mean the engagement is fought on the defensive by default. The performance differences between the Yak-1 and Bf-109 models available is marginal, and so long as you fly the Yak-1 as a fighter - an offensive weapon, not a victim waiting only to counterattack - you can hold your own. Space in air combat is three-dimensional, what works going up and down also works horizontally so long as you understand the different physics at play in each manoeuvre.

Also, most pilots in this simulator are in Europe and Russia playing in servers located in European Russia so generally speaking latency isn't a global issue.
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#133 Dave

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 08:58

I have to disagree here. Just because the Yak-1 cannot disengage when it feels like it doesn't mean the engagement is fought on the defensive by default.

Jesus - you know I didn't say that. If you had quoted with context you'd also have noticed that the point of that observation was to note that [/i]when we are defensive[/i] it exacerbates another issue - not to state that being in a defensive position is itself the problem.

Also, most pilots in this simulator are in Europe and Russia playing in servers located in European Russia so generally speaking latency isn't a global issue.

That's great for them but shit for the rest of us. You'll note that my post isn't in the Russian forum.

Edited by Dave, 20 September 2017 - 09:05.

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