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Yaks in vertical manoeuvres?


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#1 indiaciki

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 03:53

Any suggestions? I noticed she has a slow roll rate. Hammerhead is fine. I started this topic because everybody's talking abou the Yak 1 as a turn fighter. You can't use her as a turn fighter only against good LW pilots.  And you can't outclimb them, either. So, what's she like when flying vertical fights?


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#2 unreasonable

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 04:18

Dead.  ;)

 

Seriously though, obviously if you start with enough energy advantage you can have vertical manoeuvre options in any aircraft, and the differences between the Yak and the 109 in particular are often wildly exaggerated. But they are real, so the longer you play a vertical game the larger the advantage a well flown 109 will have.

 

So, IMHO, staying vertical is fine if you start higher than your opponent, for as long as you can retain that energy advantage. If you do not have it, or have lost it, then you must go horizontal.


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#3 indiaciki

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 04:25

to go horizontal you'll have to go really low? I downd a FW190 yesterday vertically. My first MP kill. You can't force them into a turnfight if they are not stupid.


Edited by indiaciki, 08 September 2017 - 04:28.

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#4 Finkeren

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 04:37

If you play the vertical game against a 109 in any other plane, you are playing into his hands.

The exception is tight loops, where you can win out, but only in the first one.

Against 190s and MC.202s it's a different story. There the Yak plays the vertical game quite well.
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#5 indiaciki

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 04:44

So you wait for the 109 and 190 to turn? Won't happen. What are your options? Dive and turn?


Edited by indiaciki, 08 September 2017 - 04:47.

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#6 216th_Lucas_From_Hell

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 05:46

Play a mix of the energy and angles games. The 109 in particular bricks up at high speeds and doesn't take lightly to very low speeds either.

When the 109 comes in hot, you can turn away easily. If it's a good pilot they will enter a zoom climb and since you can anticipate that, prepare to turn into them and get a good snapshot as they climb away. A more eager chap might want to correct their aim and pull back on the stick to get you in the sights. Thanks to the heavy controls however you can reverse into them as they burn energy and rip them to shreds with a good burst at the engine and cockpit area.

In slow speeds you eclipse the 109 at everything so just don't do anything stupid and sort things out quickly.
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#7 Finkeren

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 05:56

So you wait for the 109 and 190 to turn? Won't happen. What are your options? Dive and turn?


You are discovering what many LW pilots fail to acknowledge:

If you have the plane that is both faster and climbs better, you have the better fighter, and if you play your cards right, you get to dictate the fight.
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#8 Field-Ops

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 06:02

You switch to defensive in the horizontal, and try to throw in some vertical if you can get away with it. Then wait for them to slip up. If it goes on for too long it is usually entirely left up to chance (outside of communication) on who's teammate makes it to your fight first. 


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#9 Irgendjemand

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 06:18

Any suggestions? I noticed she has a slow roll rate. Hammerhead is fine. I started this topic because everybody's talking abou the Yak 1 as a turn fighter. You can't use her as a turn fighter only against good LW pilots.  And you can't outclimb them, either. So, what's she like when flying vertical fights?

 

How about just dumping your flaps, outturn them in a heartbeat and then, when he pathetically tries to outclimb you, just prophang and pepper em. Trust me. One hit is enough.


Edited by Irgendjemand, 08 September 2017 - 07:26.

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#10 indiaciki

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 06:20

losing speed? No way. It's ridiculous. She's too slow by any means and she rolls only to one side. You need every km/h to keep her above stall speed at climb fight vertically. Hammerhead works perfectly.


Edited by indiaciki, 08 September 2017 - 06:23.

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#11 Irgendjemand

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 06:24

are not stupid

... or on a dogfightserver thats all about stupid gameplay and testing limits.
If you meet a german thats turnfighting on a server like WOL or DED he is stupid. I agree. 


losing speed? No way. It's ridiculous. She's too slow by any means and she rolls only to one side. You need every km/h to keep her above stall speed at climb fight vertically. Hammerhead works perfectly.

Like I say. Make them overshoot and then just use your flaps and prophangcapabilities  and laser them down.


Edited by Irgendjemand, 08 September 2017 - 07:26.

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#12 indiaciki

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 06:27

If they are stupid enough. Maybe. They are not. Idiots use flaps in a fight. You don't even need them for landing a Yak.


Edited by indiaciki, 08 September 2017 - 06:29.

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#13 Irgendjemand

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 06:31

If they are stupid enough. Maybe. They are not. Idiots use flaps in a fight.

 

Then you say almost every single online YAK pilot gamer is not smart.
For some reason the ones that dont use flaps get shot down since their plane actually behaves like a plane and what feels TM historically accurate to me.

Trust me. I play this game since its release and the flaps are used like a factory built in cheat by practically everyone on red side that flies in MP.
Dump them and you outturn everything in a heartbeat, stabilize your flight and engage what feels TM to me like hoveringcapabilities.
YAK flies like a kite compared to german planes.

 

Suggestion: Join Berloga and fly german for a while. :) Its a great server for testing the limits of your plane so you can quickly understand what you better dont do. For example try to outclimb a 109 or try to outturn a YAK.


Edited by Irgendjemand, 08 September 2017 - 07:25.

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#14 indiaciki

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 06:32

Why should anybody use flaps when speed is all that counts? I'm talking energy fighting with the Yak.


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#15 =TBAS=DendroAspis

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 06:34

Use flaps on a yak... you'll be pleasantly surprised how wonderful they are. Everyone else does.


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#16 indiaciki

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 06:36

I shot down a 190 in vertical. Flaps are drag. drag>lift. Makes no sense at all. Even if it would give me lift it would slow me down. I don't need lift. The Yak needs speed. She' too slow and she doesn't climb fast unless you have altitude or 500 km/h from a dive. It's about energy. 


Who are those using flaps fighting? Sopwith Camels? My guess is they don't control stall. I black out at high speeds - turns and dives now and then. You have to fly her really fast.


Edited by indiaciki, 08 September 2017 - 06:45.

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#17 Disarray

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 06:41

But speed isn't all that counts. If you really want to boil this down to its essence, then getting your rounds on target is all that counts. That being the case, anything that puts those rounds on target works just fine, even slowing down and flaps. You are half right though, a 109 pilot can just run away from a fight. I wouldn't say that makes them smart though. The 109 is more capable in a dogfight than most give it credit for. The smart 109 pilots out there are the ones who fly that plane to the nines.

 

And just so you know, flaps work a trick on most planes in a fight. Dropping just 10% flaps on a 109 will do wonders for its maneuverability in short engagements. Short pulsing of the flaps on a Yak can even be useful. Letting them extend fully in the middle of a fight would probably be inadvisable, though I'm sure someone could come up with some scenario where that would work to your advantage.


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#18 Irgendjemand

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 06:43

Who are those using flaps fighting?

 

Like mentioned "everyone". 


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#19 indiaciki

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 07:03

What for when being attacked by a 190 from above? What's the benefit? Dive faster? Bleeding speed? I might be using them at a near vertical climb at 140 km/h for a second or two just to avoid instant stalling / spinning and before diving away. And even then it's hard to do a hammerhead with flaps so they are obsolete. + they slow me down about 30-40 km/h in a dive. Just tried.


Edited by indiaciki, 08 September 2017 - 07:14.

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#20 216th_Pinko

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 07:12

How about just dumping your flaps, outturn them in a heartbeat and then, when he pathetically tries to outclimb you, just prophang em with your antigrav and pepper em. Trust me. One hit is enough.


3 years of this?

Jesus wept.
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#21 Irgendjemand

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 07:17

What for when being attacked by a 190 from above? What's the benefit? Dive faster? Bleeding speed? I might be using them at a near vertical climb at 140 km/h for a second or two just to avoid instant stalling / spinning and before diving away. 

 

You describe the only thinkable form of encouner a 190 has actually a chance to win....(at least if he is a shitty of a gamer as I am:P)

So what you do in that case is just try and reach your own airfield. Everytime you get attacked do evasive maneuvers. What many reds do is go for headons. Stupid but effective if you dont have to fear for your real life.
An attack from superior energyposition is hard to turn. No matter the plane you are in. Actually you have a pretty good chance if the 190 gets carried away and looses too much energy. Then prophang and laser.

Seriously. Try Berloga. No better server to get practice on the enemy in. No other server offers you as much "contact" as this one. Sure its unrealistic and full of oportinists that will jump you and ruin even the slightest hint of "duelishness" of an encounter. But very good for practice.


Edited by Irgendjemand, 08 September 2017 - 07:18.

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#22 indiaciki

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 07:23

You can't run from a fight when being chased by a quicker airplane. It doesn't work. You can win if the 190 is attacking you and while she dives you climb. It's hard but it can be done. But you have to establish some sort of energy balance i.e. high speed. A position you can dive and gain your 500-600 km/h. Then you might stand a chance. BTW they are always higher than you because the Yak climbs like a bus. And most importantly - they expect you to turn.


Edited by indiaciki, 08 September 2017 - 07:28.

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#23 Irgendjemand

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 07:32

You can't run from a fight when being chased by a quicker airplane. It doesn't work. You can win if the 190 is attacking you and while she dives you climb. It's hard but it can be done. But you have to establish some sort of energy balance i.e. high speed. A position you can dive and gain your 500-600 km/h. Then you might stand a chance. BTW they are always higher than you because the Yak climbs like a bus.

 

You can evade and vector home, evade and vector home. This way you can run from the fight in the slower plane.
The other thing is the headons. Encounter that behavior quite often. When the attacker with superior energy dives on you you pull in to him and go for a headon. Everything is better than a defeat - even certain death.
Would not have happened in real life since its just stupid but this is a game and noone cares if you crash. People even try to intentionally crash if they are about to be smoked. And rather than being smoked they ram you. You can call that "armchair pilot bravery" or just "common gamer dickeadishness" I guess:)


Edited by Irgendjemand, 08 September 2017 - 07:33.

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#24 indiaciki

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 07:37

Some 109 attacked me head on. I got 2 full burst into his cockpit and he tore of my wing. I don't try to fly suicidal. If somebody attacks me head on I alway evade and get on his 6. That's a stupid way to attack a turnfighter.


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#25 blitze

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 07:49

I am an evade and run for land friendlies kind of red pilot. Usually I get caught solo against a team of Germans and know within a couple of turns they are comms Co ordinated.  Then it is a matter of dragging them to some ground fire whikst not getting chewed up in the process.

 

Much rudder induced slip turns and rudder controlled wide rolls to keep them off aim.  Doesn't help with my setup that makes awareness and fine control easy but that is something to be rectified. Went 1 on 5 to disrupt an airfield massacre last night. That was hairy, not sure what my team mates were doing but I gave a good dance and managed to land in 1 piece on the field whilst being FW bait. ). As much fun as anything else with this sim.


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#26 JaffaCake

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 08:05

to go horizontal you'll have to go really low? I downd a FW190 yesterday vertically. My first MP kill. You can't force them into a turnfight if they are not stupid.

 

Keep in mind that the majority of the players in MP (i.e. WOL) are inexperienced and would do  really stupid things :) Downing someone is not an indication of correct behaviour or aircraft's strengths.


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#27 Max_Damage

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 08:14

1v1 you always lose vs 109. You need a group and comms.

 

What you can do is maintain top speed and wait for them to pounce on your ground attacker mates or your wingmen. then try and catch them when they flee horizontally(la5 is better here, tho). As soon as 109 sees that he cant flee, he starts turnfighting. Dont try to catch them vertically, because his wingman will shoot you.


Edited by Max_Damage, 08 September 2017 - 08:16.

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#28 unreasonable

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 08:42

You can evade and vector home, evade and vector home. This way you can run from the fight in the slower plane.
The other thing is the headons. Encounter that behavior quite often. When the attacker with superior energy dives on you you pull in to him and go for a headon. Everything is better than a defeat - even certain death.
Would not have happened in real life since its just stupid but this is a game and noone cares if you crash. People even try to intentionally crash if they are about to be smoked. And rather than being smoked they ram you. You can call that "armchair pilot bravery" or just "common gamer dickeadishness" I guess:)

 

My bold - that is wrong. The approved RAF doctrine for any aircraft being attacked by a higher faster plane was to turn straight at it if at all possible. It is also one of Boelcke's dicta, BTW.

 

It is the easiest way to change the odds from horribly negative to  even or positive. It also reduces the attackers time to get on target and may throw off his aim completely if he is leading his turn for a deflection shot. If you can get your nose pointing at the attacker while he was setting up for a deflection shot you may have a shot and he will not. He may even lose sight of you altogether.  You will also be able to turn back after the merge faster than a rapidly approaching bandit.  If you both miss or cannot get a shooting angle at all you are then headed in roughly opposite directions which gives you time to turn back towards him while the attacker either zooms, or if following a fairly common German procedure, keeps diving straight on.

 

The best deterrent for  a nasty diving attacker is to see your nose pointing at him.  What is stupid for the defender is giving the attacker a free shot - if he sees the attacker coming, of course. 


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#29 indiaciki

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 08:55

You can lose against any plane, It's the pilot who is scoring. That's why I'm testing the Yak. I prefer the Spit. Yak is more available at MP. Here's a short video I just did (it's 10:30 am) to demostrate the Yak's vertical ability.  Climb at 450 sloppy Hammerhead (two different ones) and dive vertically from about 1k m towards airfield at 550-600 km/h then climbing (not in the video) to same altitude. I'm not good at it having flown the Yak for 3 days, it can be done. No energy loss. Speed is not that good and rolls only to one side. Do not stall her :D No flaps ever - for the record, since it seems to be a big issue. 

 

@Max_Damage: She's a fighter not a low flying bomber nanny :D

 

@JaffaCake until 3 days ago I didn't fly soviet aircraft at all. "My aircraft" are the E-7 and the Spit.

youtube.com/watch?v=t0Pnc4ixgRo


Edited by indiaciki, 08 September 2017 - 09:10.

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#30 Disarray

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 16:18

1v1 you always lose vs 109. You need a group and comms.

 

What you can do is maintain top speed and wait for them to pounce on your ground attacker mates or your wingmen. then try and catch them when they flee horizontally(la5 is better here, tho). As soon as 109 sees that he cant flee, he starts turnfighting. Dont try to catch them vertically, because his wingman will shoot you.

 

This is a silly statement. I've beat 109s 1v1, even 1v2 sometimes. I'm no great pilot, or anything but I am the kind of pilot that likes a fight so I fair jump at the chance for one that the enemy isn't going to run from immediately. Either plane is formidable, the Yak and 109; hell, even the LaGG can hold its own in a fight if you know what you are about in it. Things are a lot easier with comms, granted, but a 1v1 fight against a 109 is anything but hopeless.

 

While the Yak can perform hammerhead attacks it is a risky move in a fight against anyone competent. As you approach the apex of the maneuver, you are basically a sitting duck.


Edited by Disarray, 08 September 2017 - 16:21.

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#31 JimTM

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 16:35

Here's a CloD video showing a tactic that has worked for me many times to counter a BnZ fighter (provided you execute it properly and don't have 4 or 5 bandits on you)  :)  Remember the Dicta Boelcke doctrine mentioned earlier of always turning into your opponent's attack. This tactic is using a combination of vertical and horizontal manoeuvres (initial climbing turn into and above the enemy to evade the attack followed by a climbing turn reversal to counter-attack and also reduce the enemy's energy advantage).

 

youtube.com/watch?v=fwWqFKuNckY


Edited by JimTM, 08 September 2017 - 16:50.

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#32 indiaciki

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 16:56

I wan't planning to use the hammerhead as an attack. Just testing her climb limits :)


Edited by indiaciki, 08 September 2017 - 16:57.

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#33 ShamrockOneFive

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 00:38

As a reasonably proficient Yak pilot my technique against the German aircraft is essentially the same that I use in all aircraft. Its a battle of energy and angles. You want to keep as much speed or altitude (or preferably both) to use over your opponent. Be efficient with your maneuvers and try and bring them more horizontal than vertical. If you're defensive and they have a big advantage then the best option is to try and find a route for escape if you can or at least fight to a stalemate. Even better is if you have a buddy with you to work with - failing that you have to work your advantages against theirs. The Yak can out turn the 109 fairly well and the 190 easily.

 

IMHO, the flaps and prop hang method is a one trick pony move if it works at all. I never do it. If you fail then you're basically completely out of energy and easy pickings.


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#34 JG13_opcode

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 03:14

You are discovering what many LW pilots fail to acknowledge:

If you have the plane that is both faster and climbs better, you have the better fighter, and if you play your cards right, you get to dictate the fight.

 

 

This is true only in a pure air-to-air scenario, i.e. just dogfighting with nothing at stake.  The ability to run/climb away is of little value if it means you are leaving a target undefended.  You've just left a hostile in the dust over your tanks that you're supposed to be defending, or perhaps near a bomber that's now cursing your name.  


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#35 Iceworm

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 03:49

This is true only in a pure air-to-air scenario, i.e. just dogfighting with nothing at stake.  The ability to run/climb away is of little value if it means you are leaving a target undefended.  You've just left a hostile in the dust over your tanks that you're supposed to be defending, or perhaps near a bomber that's now cursing your name.  

 

Shall we talk about it's short range that made it escort missions during the battle of Britain problematic or it's narrow landing gear leading to lots of non-combat losses?  No, we are talking about Yaks fighting BF-109's in a fighter vs fighter scenario.


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#36 JG13_opcode

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 04:36

My point was that it's more nuanced than commonly believed.

 

In any case, the advice you have received is pretty good.  Take it from a mostly-LW pilot:  there are lots of things you can do.  The people telling you it's hopeless are either exaggerating/lying or don't know any better.

 

If you keep the fight fast, and refuse to climb with the 109, you can deny a guns-tracking firing solution for as long as you have fuel.  Since this forces the 109 to play for the snapshot, you can use the flight path separation to set up lead turns, etc.  Keep the fight in the altitude bands where your performance best matches the 109's.

 

And as always, bring a wingman.


Edited by JG13_opcode, 09 September 2017 - 04:38.

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#37 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 04:52

And as always, bring a wingman.


So you'll have someone to distract the 109/190 while you run away...
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#38 JG13_opcode

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 05:02

Or, you know, set up a drag and bag.  Go troll somewhere else.


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#39 Finkeren

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 06:32

This is true only in a pure air-to-air scenario, i.e. just dogfighting with nothing at stake. The ability to run/climb away is of little value if it means you are leaving a target undefended. You've just left a hostile in the dust over your tanks that you're supposed to be defending, or perhaps near a bomber that's now cursing your name.


I agree, but that situation would be the same had the roles been reversed. It is just as bad for a Yak pilot to get dragged away from a bomber he/she is meant to protect. In fact it's a bit worse, because the Yak being slower at most altitudes will take longer to rejoin the bomber and has a harder time disengaging from the fight and return to his escort duties.

For escort missions, the faster, better climbing plane is still at an advantage, because it allows you to stay on top of the fight and retreat to a safer position above, from where you can dive on an enemy the moment he/she turns his attention to the bomber.
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#40 Finkeren

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 06:42

The faster, better climbing plane is also favored when intercepting bombers. It can catch up to its target quicker, better get into a safe position to attack from and can make itself practically immune to slower escort fighters on the same level as the target bomber.

The P-40 is an awesome bomber killer, unless the target is above you. Then it becomes an excercise in frustration because of the horrible climb rate and if there are enemy fighters around you can pretty much forget about attacking that bomber.
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