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katdog5

Incredible damage model

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I was attacking a bomber and thought I may have carelessly GRAZED its wingtip with my wing.  Sure enough a mark was on my wing like someone took a crayon to it. I was like whew.  I zoomed in and swore I saw a tear open a little bit.  A little testing and the wing stayed together.  Whew

 

Until 4-5 minutes later when my wing broke off! 

 

What a sim! 

 

 

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Cumulative structural damage based on the actual stress on the airframe is a fantastic feature, which no other WW2 sim has, and which we probably wouldn't have if it hadn't been for the dev's experiences with Rise of Flight.

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Cumulative structural damage based on the actual stress on the airframe is a fantastic feature, which no other WW2 sim has.

 

Il-2 1946 had this in its latest  versions. It is not as impressive as BoX but it is there.

 

 

and which we probably wouldn't have if it hadn't been for the dev's experiences with Rise of Flight.

 

The devs really did a great job converting this feature, from canvas aircraft to steal and aluminium wings. You can see the metal bending away until it snaps. So rewarding 

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Il-2 1946 had this in its latest  versions. It is not as impressive as BoX but it is there.

 

Are you sure about this? I thought it was just that if, say, a wing had suffered structural damage, that lowered the threshold for the G-loads on that wing, which would snap off if that new limit was exceeded - not cumulative, where lesser loads can gradually exacerbate the damage until the wing finally rips off, as it is in this sim.

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Aluminum has a relatively low modulus of elasticity, and a low fatigue limit.

 

That is to say, that if weakened, cumulative "flexes" of the material will result in failure. It is also true even when not weakened, it is just that when weakened, "normal" g loads will cause more flex than designed for, proportional to the degree of damage.

 

Refer to Young's modulus, and elastic deformation.

 

metal-modulus-elasticity.png

Edited by Venturi

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Seeing explosions for each shell on the fuselage of the target is really immersive. 

 

Great example at about 4:48 on Bismarck's latest video: he flies into a damaged part falling of the target and his propellor gets damaged!

 

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Finkeren, it's there in a less detailed way. Every time you exceed the G limits the components get closer to their breaking point, and if you do it constantly they'll eventually be damaged under relatively mild stress.

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I was shooting down some stukas with the P40 in QMB and i think i broke a stuka's propeller blade. I didnt record it but it seemed very clear to me. Props to the devs for that detail (pun intended).

The pilot bailed and the plane started going down. Since it was the last enemy plane left, i decided to dive along the falling plane at a close but safe distance by its side.

All of a sudden, the falling plane fluttered around violently and hit me out of nowhere. It was a great feeling to see how realistically it lost control instead of falling like a rock.

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my favorite moment (unfortunately didn't record it) was making it back home and landing safely, stopping the airplane, stopping the engine, pressing F2 external view to look around at the damage done to the plane and noticing a lot of small holes all over the wing as well as almost a perforation between the fuselage and a wing and then watching as structure giving in as the wing cracks off and plane falls to the ground with the awful screeching/cracking sounds . Surreal and a bit comical...

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Seeing explosions for each shell on the fuselage of the target is really immersive. 

 

Great example at about 4:48 on Bismarck's latest video: he flies into a damaged part falling of the target and his propellor gets damaged!

 

awesome...thx for sharing everyone

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Are you sure about this? I thought it was just that if, say, a wing had suffered structural damage, that lowered the threshold for the G-loads on that wing, which would snap off if that new limit was exceeded - not cumulative, where lesser loads can gradually exacerbate the damage until the wing finally rips off, as it is in this sim.

 

Yes. To give an example, even without damage, if your structural limit was about 9 G's, you could do 3 or 4 +11G maneuvers, but after some time your plane would break. With damage, the structural damage of that part would lower and the same logic would apply. There were no visual cues for this, unlike BoX where you can see the wings bending away, but the idea was there.

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Guest deleted@30725

Finkeren, it's there in a less detailed way. Every time you exceed the G limits the components get closer to their breaking point, and if you do it constantly they'll eventually be damaged under relatively mild stress.

 

Noticed this the other day doing a bunch of hard turns and then finally without being under attack the wing snapped.

 

Never noticed it before, but good feature.

Edited by deleted@30725

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The damage model is one of the best parts of this game. I love every part of it. You can pilot kill, penetrating half of the plane with 12.7, you can set things on fire, blow up ammo and fuel and attack the engines.

 

Also armor actually works as intended on il2.

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But what is missing is a loss of stability and manouverability with heavily damages wings. It is just annoying, when Pe2s with 10 big holes of 20mm rounds in the wings turn like fighters, even with their 4 FAB250 still under the wings.

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You don't need to fly for long in a Fw 190 with a few holes in the wing to know, that it absolutely affects both lift, stability and speed.

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Its best illustrated with an il 2 which will take a ton of bullets to the wings before they are jettissoned. At some point it will just all out of the sky because it cant get a grip in the air.

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Its best illustrated with an il 2 which will take a ton of bullets to the wings before they are jettissoned. At some point it will just all out of the sky because it cant get a grip in the air.

Indeed. Many a time I've brought home an IL-2 looking like swiss cheese, but it takes a lot of struggling with the controls, because there is very little lift to work with and stability is shot to hell. The IL-2 can do this, because it's wingloading is so low. A Fw 190 with far fewer holes in its wings will drop right out of the sky.

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Tonight I encountered damage that I hadn't personally seen before. I was flying a 109F2, and my wing was hit by a Mig3 as I attempted to force an overshoot. The overshoot was successful and the Mig shot down in a ball of flames with a burst of MG151/15, but on my way RTB I was inspecting the wing damage. It was only minor, but the leading edge slat on my right wing was jammed open slightly due to the damage.

 

Here are some screenshots.

 

One side shown without slat deployed and the other slightly with. Needless to say I was very impressed.

 

Undamaged

 

 

post-31310-0-26093200-1506875566_thumb.png

 

 

 

Damaged

 

 

post-31310-0-18164700-1506875618_thumb.png

 

 

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I think that damage modelling actually went *backwards* as graphics quality improved.   Either the time spent on making pretty graphics left no time for writing a nice DM or the CPU load of the pretty graphics meant the program could not also handle a complicated DM.

 

Examples:-

1942: Pacific Air War. - Circa 1994   I remember being impressed that when my Hellcat lost its wing, the wing tumbled & spiralled like a sycamore leaf because it is after-all an aerodynamic object.

 

Fighter Squadron: Screaming Demons over Europe. - Circa 1999.   I remember making a very heavy landing and breaking my undercarriage and after I slid to a stop I watched my lost wheel rolling in an ever decreasing circle on the runway until it fell over; exactly how a real wheel behaves under the influence of both momentum and gravity.     I also remember getting too close in a formation and touching someones wing tip with my propeller.   My engine immediately started vibrating and as I kept flying the vibration got worse over about five minutes until the engine started leaking oil then seized.  It had literally shaken itself to bits because of the damaged prop.

 

Even as recently as the original IL2,  when you shot a He111s engine and got it burning, the flames would start to spread down the wing then the fuel tank blew and the wing came off.  This was exactly what did happen with 111s and why they never attempted top get home with an engine fire. They just bailed immediately.     Most modern sims that boast of their accuracy still dont model fire damage properly.  The fire usually stays in one place and does not get worse and does not spread.  CLoD tried to model skin fires when hit by incendiary rounds but they usually went out quickly and had no effect on the flight characteristics even when large parts of the skin should have been consumed by the flames.

 

Getting back to BoX and it gradual damage,  I have twice ground looped a spitfire before take-off through sloppy taxi technique and thought it had done no damage but then a few minutes after take-off had an aileron rip away :-)   In DCS & CLoD it is also easy to drop a wing and ground loop a spitfire but I have never seen any damage from it unless you do it on landing when you are moving very fast.   BoX is pretty awesome sometimes.

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A while back someone posted a video of Clod vs bos damage modeling (mostly taxiing planes bumping each other etc.) It really illustrated the value of the structural modeling in bos. I wish I could find it again.

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a video that a friend made 

 

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a video that a friend made 

 

 

Very telling.  Clod acts like your wing has touched a spinning propeller instead of a stationary object.  It then snaps cleanly off at a preset point.

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Very telling.  Clod acts like your wing has touched a spinning propeller instead of a stationary object.  It then snaps cleanly off at a preset point.

 

This has been bugreported and will be fixed apparently in 5.0.

 

CLoD's visual damage model is far superior to this game, in that it seems that when you take damage here, depending on how much it just displays generic damage textures. In CLoD, you see holes exactly where you were hit. Good example you can see here is when Atreides bounces our squadron in this video, and shoots off Woop's engine cowling (which then hits and damages him) which you can see starting at 5:07 here:

 

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I have seen tracer rounds ricochet off bf109 tail. I was shooting a 12.7 at ~700m. one of the tracers  hit and the shot was deflected :O. Ricochets are a part of bullet mechanics in this game FYI. Bullets can also penetrate ofc and they lose power gradually while travelling inside the plane.

 

Having fun with takeoffs and landings:

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This has been bugreported and will be fixed apparently in 5.0.

 

CLoD's visual damage model is far superior to this game, in that it seems that when you take damage here, depending on how much it just displays generic damage textures. In CLoD, you see holes exactly where you were hit. Good example you can see here is when Atreides bounces our squadron in this video, and shoots off Woop's engine cowling (which then hits and damages him) which you can see starting at 5:07 here:

 

 

I am confused as to why you say that is a good example of hits being shown where you were hit in CLoD.  It only shows that you can be damaged by debris and I have seen many identical videos from within BoX.  I flew CLoD from when it started right up to when 1C bought out TF and while I agree Box does use generic bullet hole graphics, I have never seen anywhere near the varying degrees of actual damage in CLoD than those I see in BoX.  To me that is much more important.  An aircraft in BoX that has lost a tailplane will feel unstable in turns and with half a wing wing you will be lucky to hold it level enough to jump.In CLoD if you lose 1/3 of your wing you just scrape the other wing along the ground to remove the same amount and carry on.  I once lost half my wing in a hurricane attacking a stuka and was still able to come back and chase him and finish him off before flying home and landing. 

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Both Bos and Clod use decals, one have it prettier plus may have more localized places to put it. BOS decals could be remade and together with 4K skin textures could look far better. What I would like to see addressed is damage to various systems (hydraulic, electric, mechanical fuel, cooling, engine etc), some are implemented in varying degrees or simplified, some not yet.

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I was flying last night and had one of those 'wow' moments. On the tail of a JU 87 peppering him with MG and cannon, he suddenly slowed and veered up and inverted, as I unsuccessfully tried to avoid a collision I found myself tangled with the Ju87 locked in a death dive for both of us. 

In VR it was mind-blowing seeing my foe slumped over dead in his cockpit right next to me, I could even see the dials on his dash, unbelievable.    

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I am confused as to why you say that is a good example of hits being shown where you were hit in CLoD. It only shows that you can be damaged by debris and I have seen many identical videos from within BoX. I flew CLoD from when it started right up to when 1C bought out TF and while I agree Box does use generic bullet hole graphics, I have never seen anywhere near the varying degrees of actual damage in CLoD than those I see in BoX. To me that is much more important. An aircraft in BoX that has lost a tailplane will feel unstable in turns and with half a wing wing you will be lucky to hold it level enough to jump.In CLoD if you lose 1/3 of your wing you just scrape the other wing along the ground to remove the same amount and carry on. I once lost half my wing in a hurricane attacking a stuka and was still able to come back and chase him and finish him off before flying home and landing.

+1

 

Losing a part of the plane does not equate showing the hits accurately on the decals, those are two different issues.

Planes in BOX can also lose parts such as landing gear, rudder or whole tail, flaps, canopy, landing gear cover, wings and wingtips etc.).

Edited by Jade_Monkey

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Clod probably does a better job of modeling damage to systems components, but BOX is in a different league when it comes to the mechanics of structural damage (which I find much more gratifying).

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The over all damage model in iL2BoX is great. My only complaint being some of the damage delivery systems. AP rounds seem to have exaggerated affects on target sometimes. One other quip would be the infamous glass tail on the 109. ☺

 

von Luck

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I am confused as to why you say that is a good example of hits being shown where you were hit in CLoD.  It only shows that you can be damaged by debris and I have seen many identical videos from within BoX.  I flew CLoD from when it started right up to when 1C bought out TF and while I agree Box does use generic bullet hole graphics, I have never seen anywhere near the varying degrees of actual damage in CLoD than those I see in BoX.  To me that is much more important.  An aircraft in BoX that has lost a tailplane will feel unstable in turns and with half a wing wing you will be lucky to hold it level enough to jump.In CLoD if you lose 1/3 of your wing you just scrape the other wing along the ground to remove the same amount and carry on.  I once lost half my wing in a hurricane attacking a stuka and was still able to come back and chase him and finish him off before flying home and landing. 

 

I said "visual damage model". Meaning where the program shows damage. I've been shot down by a 109 because all the fabric was shot off my ailerons; you could see the wood spars still in the control surface but there was no actual control surface left. If you get hit in the wingtip, a bullet hole appears there. BoS just shows generic damage. Mind you, I'm not saying it's not simulated correctly for the behavior of the aircraft, but as for seeing what's actually been hit at a glance, it's way more detailed in CLoD. You can lose engine cowlings - and see the engine under that - have damage to your upper wing surface, look out and see the ammo feeds/wing guns, etc. 

 

Actual damage model is overall good, and hopefully will be improved in 4.5 and 5.0. 

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