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indiaciki

Spitfire ground loop

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... at even a mere quarterly 10 mph wind ???

 

It is not mph, what you set in IL2. It is m/s. If you set 10 m/s, that is 20 knots !   I don´t expect any RL Spit will taxi at 20 knots crosswind without problems.

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It is not mph, what you set in IL2. It is m/s. If you set 10 m/s, that is 20 knots !   I don´t expect any RL Spit will taxi at 20 knots crosswind without problems.

 

Yes, I am aware of that :-) for many years actually, but, please bear in mind that when flying the spitfire or any aircraft with it's instruments in the same unit system, the Info bar shows windspeed in mph, not knot or m/s.

 

Of course in the "Quick Mission", if I want to set a 10+ knot wind I program it as 5 m/s... and even less should be used for a 10 mph wind... ( since it's statute miles )....

 

I'm not saying it isn't realistic the way it acts in IL.2 Battle of..., since I never taxied a Spitfire IRL. Actually I never taxied other than C172s and C150s, or Robins and a couple of ULMs IRL, as a "co-pilot",  because I am a glider pilot only, and in gliders I do know how important, specially for some models, a x-wind can become during the final stage of a rollout ...

 

And, btw: https://www.memorialflightclub.com/forum/cross-winds

Edited by jcomm

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Here's a quick video I threw together of my latest Spit landing two days ago.

 

 

Now, there's a lot "wrong" with this approach, as I was damaged so rushing to get her on the ground, and didn't plan on using this as an educational tool. My approach is dirty (uncoordinated) and I lower my gear a bit fast, among other problems. Also note, having played this game for a while, I tend to prefer a single 180 degree turn onto final. This is opposed to two discrete turns from base to downwind and downwind to final, as most new pilots learn and should probably practice.

 

Anyway, I'm sharing it anyway for two reasons. First, note that landing as slowly as possible makes the aircraft way easier to control on the ground. In the video I think I touch down at just over 80mph.

 

Second, in addition to using a bit of throttle during the rollout, I also drop my RPM to zero. You can see this in the third and final view in the video, where I show the instruments. After touchdown, before using the breaks, I drop the RPM and add a bit of throttle. I use this technique in any aircraft that likes to ground loop (Spit,LaGG, La-5 mostly). I picked it up from someone a while ago and it's been a huge help, as you can see in this video where I barely need rudder or brakes on the rollout.

 

PS the music is Philip Glass, Etude number 2, performed by Víkingur Ólafsson.

Edited by 19//curiousGamblerr
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Nice music and landing.  You should raise flaps before taxiing however (Pedant alert!).

 

Lots of Spitfire anecdotes recommend a continuous curved approach for landing, due to the difficulty of seeing over the nose, so a continuous 180 degree turn ending up straight only at the last moment is optimum, IMHO. You see the display pilots still doing it at air shows.

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In this footage, specially towards the end of it, we can watch the "rudder dance" to keep the aircraft on the runway during rollout...

 

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In this footage, specially towards the end of it, we can watch the "rudder dance" to keep the aircraft on the runway during rollout...

 

 

Nice Video! Man that thing really likes to swing :biggrin:

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I'm thinking he was on the taxiway and was using the rudder to slew the nose side to side to see where he was going.

 

Also that is a late Griffon engined Spit.  Heavier in the nose and with the bubble canopy, less lateral stability.

 

Just something to think about.

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Beautiful video! BTW I figured it out, Since i hadn't been flying for a long time my rudder curves were totally screwed up (extreme S -cuves) no rudder authority in the mid ranges. 

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Easiest way to avoid ground looping in any plane without separate brakes in the pedal:

-hold down the brake button/lever/whatever

-start pushing left and right alternately and do this fast (while holding the brake all the time)

-it does not matter how much you push the pedals, just that you quickly transition from left to right

 

I was struggling for more than a year playing the sim, until someone gave me this simple trick. What I would do, was to push for example left rudder and the brake and then let go of the brake and then go right rudder and brake again and so on, but this is tricky and hard to be always right on the money with brake inputs, especially with curves.

 

The method I wrote about will work flawlessly 99% and you don't really need to make a perfect approach or touchdown, just be sure to start doing it as soon as all wheels are planted on the ground. Pulling back on the stick fully will also help as it basically works like downforce in a car, pushing your tailwheel to ground, providing it with additional traction. You will also stop very fast with this.

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Jcomms video is a good deonstration of how rudder corrections on the ground should be executed. If you move the rudder to slow or with too little deflection it will not be able to counter the torque. Hold it too long at deflection and the aircraft will oversteer and breakout.

 

Another way to describe it's steering a big ship. As soon as you see it going into a turn you already have to start countering it.

Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka

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Hello folks,

 

I am a pretty new sim pilot and have gotten to a point in IL2 that I can consistently land most planes. I am even getting into dogfight tactics.

 

Then I hit the Spitfire and was just constantly ground looping. It was starting to really get on my nerves. I spent about a week trying all kinds of variations when landing the plane.

 

If you search on Google for this problem, this thread is the #1 ranked result.

 

People in this thread actually do give the answer (Mmaruda two posts above for example) but for some reason it didn't register with me i.e.  I seem to need things explicitly spelled out! 

 

In fact it took me to read all the comments of this Youtube video for the penny to drop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhYpyQgYy3M. There is a comment nearly all the way at the bottom which is responded to by the video maker:

 

Quote

You need to continue holding brakes until you come to a stop and use rudder at the same time. When using brakes with the rudder pedals it provides differential braking

 

This was my light-bulb moment!

 

So basically when I touch down I bleed of some speed whilst going straight. From the moment I first apply brakes I now never let them go. Use the rudder to adjust left and right  in a stabby fashion. If you let the brakes go at all the momentum will spin you out.

 

Now I am consistently landing the Spitfire and am a very happy sim pilot.

 

Apologies if this was obvious to everyone else in the thread. But it wasn't to me!

 

Hope it helps someone out there!!

 

 

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Most people land too fast as well, this makes for problems.

 

I know your use of brakes works in the sim, but this is one of the glaring diversions from reality that should be unacceptable in a "simulation".  If you did that in a real life Spitfire you would be on your nose straight away, and at the least you would have a broken prop, at worst, well, I hope you hugged your girlfriend before you took off, because you would not be doing that ever again...

 

The ground handling remains the weakest part of our favorite sim to this day.  Ineffective brakes than never fade, too much "sticktion" of the ground surface that makes you use inordinate amounts of power to get your aircraft rolling from a parked position, the way too long take off rolls of the WW1 kites, and the totally unrealistic ground loop behavior.  I hope this can be fixed some day.

Edited by BlitzPig_EL

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2 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Most people land too fast as well, this makes for problems.

 

I know your use of brakes works in the sim, but this is one of the glaring diversions from reality that is should be unacceptable in a "simulation".  If you did that in a real life Spitfire you would be on your nose straight away, and at the least you would have a broken prop, at worst, well, I hope you hugged your girlfriend before you took off, because you would not be doing that ever again...

 

The ground handling remains the weakest part of our favorite sim to this day.  Ineffective brakes than never fade, too much "sticktion" of the ground surface that makes you use inordinate amounts of power to get your aircraft rolling from a parked position, the way too long take off rolls of the WW1 kites, and the totally unrealistic ground loop behavior.  I hope this can be fixed some day.

 

The brakes are weird yes but I think they did them this way on purpose. DCS's Spitfire is a bit of a mess for me because I don't yet have an analogue control for my breaking control so I'm still using a push button. I have to tap tap tap the brakes to try and keep the aircraft straight (and not nose over - which happens all the time). The IL-2 version I still tap but less because the brakes don't come on quite as strongly. I think they may have done it this way to make it easier for people with push buttons for brake controls.

 

I appreciate the efficacy of both approaches.

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On 8/13/2017 at 4:39 PM, indiaciki said:

I haven't been flying for quite some time. This is a video of a typical Spitfire landing (a bit short) - I ground loop most of the time as she loses speed after a successful landing. What am I doing wrong?

 

This is a 2min video of a landing (ext/int view).

 

 

 

 

In the second vid it looks like you are attempting a downwind landing. I think it only looks like crosswind after you have ground looped. If there is a windsock at the field you should note wind direction before attempting to land. If there is crosswind you need to decide early how much aileron input will be needed to avoid having the upwind wing lift. Once the wind causes a wing to lift you are toast. At some fields there is even a choice of runways. Obviously, if one runway is subject to a crosswind and another less so you can make an informed decision as to which you prefer.

Tap dancing the pedals is not the answer. Assessing wind direction and strength before attempting a landing will help you learn to land the Spitfire successfully. Ignore the wind at your peril.

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The still image from curiousGamblerr's post tells you all you need to know about how to prevent the Spitfire from ground looping on landing. Study it well.

 

Wind direction is irrelevant BTW.

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1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I know your use of brakes works in the sim, but this is one of the glaring diversions from reality that should be unacceptable in a "simulation". 

 

 

I think this is why I was frustrated for a week. It is not the obvious thing to do.

 

Unfortunately though it is the only thing I can seem to do that gets me consistently decent landings. Maybe as I get better I will be able to nuance my style more.

 

It does work though.

Edited by Saiyon

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16 minutes ago, Vortice said:

The still image from curiousGamblerr's post tells you all you need to know about how to prevent the Spitfire from ground looping on landing. Study it well.

 

Wind direction is irrelevant BTW.

Please explain. The aircraft in the vid is damaged prior to touchdown so choices might be limited. Is there any wind or turbulence to factor in? Certainly appreciation of wind strength and direction are critical to understand IRL whether landing  "full size" AC or RC.

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3 hours ago, Saiyon said:

Hello folks,

 

I am a pretty new sim pilot and have gotten to a point in IL2 that I can consistently land most planes. I am even getting into dogfight tactics.

 

Then I hit the Spitfire and was just constantly ground looping. It was starting to really get on my nerves. I spent about a week trying all kinds of variations when landing the plane.

 

If you search on Google for this problem, this thread is the #1 ranked result.

 

People in this thread actually do give the answer (Mmaruda two posts above for example) but for some reason it didn't register with me i.e.  I seem to need things explicitly spelled out! 

 

In fact it took me to read all the comments of this Youtube video for the penny to drop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhYpyQgYy3M. There is a comment nearly all the way at the bottom which is responded to by the video maker:

 

 

This was my light-bulb moment!

 

So basically when I touch down I bleed of some speed whilst going straight. From the moment I first apply brakes I now never let them go. Use the rudder to adjust left and right  in a stabby fashion. If you let the brakes go at all the momentum will spin you out.

 

Now I am consistently landing the Spitfire and am a very happy sim pilot.

 

Apologies if this was obvious to everyone else in the thread. But it wasn't to me!

 

Hope it helps someone out there!!

 

 

You and I landed on the same issue, at the same time, it seems (pun fully intended).  I attempted 30 landings yesterday in the spit vb, in the flight school campaign (Thanks Utopioneer!), 20 of which were fully within parameters (95mph three point landing) and every single one resulted in a ground loop right at the end of the roll out, strangely opposite the prop rotation.  Normal rudder and brake correction were for naught.  I will have to try the wildly swinging rudder technique along with a bit of prop wash and see if that helps when I get back to my rig.

 

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2 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Please explain. The aircraft in the vid is damaged prior to touchdown so choices might be limited. Is there any wind or turbulence to factor in? Certainly appreciation of wind strength and direction are critical to understand IRL whether landing  "full size" AC or RC.

 

Wind direction will affect your landing in many ways, but it does not cause ground looping. Unloading of the weight on the tailwheel at low speed causes ground looping.

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27 minutes ago, Vortice said:

 

Wind direction will affect your landing in many ways, but it does not cause ground looping. Unloading of the weight on the tailwheel at low speed causes ground looping.

Fantastic! How does wind direction  "affect your landing in many ways" but not contribute to ground looping, especially with a low wing tail dragger? All I am saying is that I think too many simmers ignore wind speed and direction simply because they don't recognize its' significance and cannot be bothered to make a quick pass over the landing field in order to make an assessment. IRL you really wouldn't want to take off or land down wind. If you won't even trouble yourself to make an assessment of wind direction do you really deserve to make a good landing?

Edited by Dagwoodyt
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14 hours ago, Vortice said:

Wind direction will affect your landing in many ways, but it does not cause ground looping.

 

Cross wind can definitely cause a ground loop. 

Without crosswind, tailwheel aircraft tend to ground loop because they are unstable (CG behind landing gear). 

With crosswind, adding to this unstability, the aircraft will tend to turn into the wind. 

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