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Wolferl_1791

Request: Adjusting the gunsights.

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I hope the devs have time to implement the adjustment features of the gunsights found in the game. 

 

The russian planes used the PBP-1 gunsight, shown below. The image below shows that this gunsight had a vertical adjustment, and it is the only adjustment found on the fighters. This is the same unit as the one found on the Pe-2 and IL-2 in game, except those are mounted on a different bracket, which allowed for horizontal adjustment as well.

post-2797-0-42980200-1379159595.jpg

Forgive my German skills, Google translate:

- "Die einstellung beträgt +20, -5 und erfolgt durch verdrehen der reflexsheibe" = The attitude is +20, -5 and takes place by twisting the reflex disc.

- "verstellwinkel fur bombenwurf" = Adjustment angle for bomb throw

 

Vertically moving the gunsight was done by physically rotating the reflective glass. Check the image below (bad Photoshop skills, sorry):

post-92104-0-99536500-1502518260_thumb.jpg

 

- (slide 1) Adjusting the knob towards the -5 position, rotated the glass towards the pilot, up to 5 degrees from normal position. This moved the gunsight up, either for rocket firing, or for shooting at targets closer than the convergence point (bullet drop and all that thing). 

- (slide 2) Adjusting the knob towards the +20 position, rotated the glass away from the pilot, up to 20 degrees from normal position. This moved the gunsight down. Note the much bigger (4X) range of travel. This was for shooting at targets further away, beyond the gun convergence point (bullet drop), and, most important of all, for bomb attacks. 

 

The lower part of the reflector assembly is different on the Il-2 and Pe-2, where the sight seems to have been mounted on an adjustable frame. There is a rounded metal label on the upper part, ranging from -20 to +20 degrees. The lower vernier knob rotated the entire upper assembly left/right around the center of the lens. I have no idea about the real direction the pilot had to rotate the knob, so I'll just assume it was like this:

 

- (slide 3) Adjusting the knob clockwise, rotates the entire upper assembly counter clockwise. This shifts the gunsight to the left. 

- (slide 4) Adjusting the knob counter clockwise, rotates the entire upper assembly clockwise. This shifts the gunsight to the right. 

 

Practical uses were for dive-bombing (moving the gunsight over your impact point makes the dive run easier), but the IL-2 manual also suggests that this was used to calibrate the sight before the flight as any bend of the extending rod would shift the sight into an incorrect position. 

 

1091535d1499637590-looking-pbp-1-aircraf

 

 

What about the germans?

Well, according to the Texture in game, they were using the Revi C/12 D sight. I've managed to find a manual for the A version here: 

http://www.germanluftwaffe.com/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/r/Reflexvisiere/Revi%20C12%20A.pdf

 

In pages 19-22 it repeatedly marks the knob under the unit as "Rotary knob, for switching and changing the brightness".

 

Being able to turn off the sight would be useful, especially in VR where it is sometime occluding the view and I'm sure the Russians must've had a switch for it as well, to preserve the bulbs. As for changing the brightness, meh.... I don't care about that.

 

Implementation

I will suggest both simple options, and more complex ones, if technically possible, or if dev time permits:

 

Switch on/off and brightness adjustment for all sights:

- simple: similar to flaps on some planes, keeping the button pressed would turn on the device and increase brightness up to the current max. Pressing it again would lower the brightness until the unit shuts off (or, a different button). 

- advanced: The appropriate 3D switches or knobs would be animated in the cockpit. Bulbs would "burn out" after a random time, so that the pilots would need to preserve them. During automatic engine starts, the "auto pilot" would turn the sight on to check it, and then off again to preserve it. 

 

Horizontal/Vertical adjustment (PBP-1)

- simple: just shift the sight image

- advanced: physically tilt the reflective glass and let physics do the job. This would look cool in 3D VR.

 

Please note that I have not discussed gun convergence more than I had to. Keeping the adjustments zeroed out (default), would keep your bullets in the center of the sight, at the convergence distance, as it currently works. But if you adjust the sight in flight, for bombs or whatever, you'd have to remember to reset it, otherwise your aim will no longer be aligned with your guns. This thread seems to show however that there was a bit more method regarding bullet distance drop: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?topic=362605.0

Edited by karamazovnew
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Most of what you describe is about getting the sight calibrated for the current convergence setting. I am pretty sure that your airfield engineer would give you 2 slaps on your backhead if you played around with that thing in flight and he has to spend hours to get it properly aligned again.

 

The spitfire has adjustible ranges and they are usable ingame. I am however with you on the brightness adjustment and the ability to turn the sight off would also be pretty neat.

Edited by 216th_Jordan
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Most of what you describe is about getting the sight calibrated for the current convergence setting.

 

You've missread me. Nothing I've said is about gun convergence. At the 0 knobs position, the gunsight would always be on the convergence point. But being able to go up and down from that mid-flight has its uses. I'll edit the previous post to make it more apparent. 

 

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, I'm starting to get the feeling that the russians had to use these adjustment knobs because in real life, their mass produced "expect to die" planes were not exactly top quality. You'd expect the germans to put a simple sight on a high quality perfectly aligned plane with a perfectly aligned cockpit. But the Russians? Much easier and cheaper to put 2 knobs on the gunsight, right? Anyway, what I'm saying is that even if the engineer would carefully align the guns with the sights at "+1, -2" setting for the correct center, those are not hard to remember values to reset the sight in flight. So if you remember to do so before landing, you'd not be slapped. Other than that, I repeat that being able to adjust them in flight can be very useful for bombers (or fighters with bombs). 

Edited by karamazovnew

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The Soviet sight was not adjustable for MG and cannon range. Those knobs are for setting up the sight to be used with rockets:

 

post-549-0-71078600-1452004966.png

Edited by LukeFF

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The Soviet sight was not adjustable for MG and cannon range. Those knobs are for setting up the sight to be used with rockets:

 

Yeap, it would be useful for bombs and rockets as well. Good image, but those are just mils data, nothing useful about rockets. But we can find out for ourselves, through a bit of practice. 

 

Anyway, my main curiosity was "what did those dials do", if they were for brightness or position adjustment. I'm satisfied with my find, that it was for altering the angle of the glass and the upper unit itself. It seems very likely, based on the 3D model itself, and optics technology (if you've ever worked with a sextant, you know what I mean). Reason was to move the gunsight to a desired position. 

 

For what purpose that was, we'll get to find that in game, if the devs make it when they have time. I think they should. People will be screaming for Spitfire adjustable gunsight anyway. 

 

Guns?

- Default when starting flight would be at convergence position, either 0,0

- or, the devs might randomize their position at flight start (say +1 up, -2 left) to mimic the mechanic readjusting the sight to the guns on the ground (if and only if it was done in real life). 

You'd basically need to be at these settings whenever you fire MG/guns, or the sight will not be lined up with the convergence point 

 

Bombs and rockets? 

- as described above, but we'll get to find out how practical it would be to adjust these in flight. My guess is "very", at least for the vertical.

 

Then there's the question about turning the sight on/off, which shouldn't be hard to achieve and it would be useful. 

 

Finally there's the question if the german sights would get adjustable brightness and if the russians had it as well (not on the sight, but maybe through the same knob on the control panel, which turned it on/off).

Edited by karamazovnew

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People will be screaming for Spitfire adjustable gunsight anyway

Nobody is screaming for that, because it's already adjustable.

Guns?

- Default when starting flight would be at convergence position, either 0,0

- or, the devs might randomize their position at flight start (say +1 up, -2 left) to mimic the mechanic readjusting the sight to the guns on the ground (if and only if it was done in real life).

You'd basically need to be at these settings whenever you fire MG/guns, or the sight will not be lined up with the convergence point

What in the world are you going on about? Randomized starting positions? To paraphrase Oleg, close this book and never open it again.

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Nobody is screaming for that, because it's already adjustable.

 

What in the world are you going on about? Randomized starting positions? To paraphrase Oleg, close this book and never open it again.

 

I will not close it just because you don't understand what I'm saying.

Instead of shutting me up, why didn't you link me your very own thread, where somebody replied with the exact proof and data I was looking for? You could've gained me some time searching for it. 

 

Your thread: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/19684-german-and-soviet-aircraft-gunsights/

Sokol1's reply thread: https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/593-pbp-1b-realizaciya-v-bzs/page-1

 

Anyway, I'm done asking... I've found everything I need. Many thanks for the very "helpful" replies. I will update the opening post with what I've found. 

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It is required for acceptable dive bombing accuracy to be able to adjust sight in Pe-2. I am disappointed that the sight adjustment commands do not adjust the PBP-1 sight through it's fully 25 degrees of elevation and 40 degrees of azimuth, nor any amount. Dive bombing, the primary role of the airplane, requires point of aim adjustment according to wind, dive angle, and height routinely of angles 5° or greater.

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7 hours ago, ACG_Frederf said:

It is required for acceptable dive bombing accuracy to be able to adjust sight in Pe-2. I am disappointed that the sight adjustment commands do not adjust the PBP-1 sight through it's fully 25 degrees of elevation and 40 degrees of azimuth, nor any amount. Dive bombing, the primary role of the airplane, requires point of aim adjustment according to wind, dive angle, and height routinely of angles 5° or greater.

 

The Pe-2's gunsight was not specialized for dive-bombing. It's the same sight that was fitted to fighter planes.

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I don't care if it was for making milkshakes. The real sight can be adjusted for a wide range of angles, actual Pe-2 pilots would have made use of it, and that's exactly what I need to accommodate dive bomb aiming. I want to reach through the screen and turn the knobs.

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2 hours ago, ACG_Frederf said:

actual Pe-2 pilots would have made use of it

 

[citation needed]

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