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chilemike

Why Stalingrad?

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With the Battle of Kursk only  7 months into '43 the plane set would be virtually the same.  Most of us history /flight sim nerds know that the turning point of the war was Kursk, not Stalingrad and the air battle that raged over the battlefields was also the largest in history as was the tank battle.  Maybe in an add-on or expansion but the significance of Kursk as an air battle far outweighs Stalingrad for both sides.  Just MHO.

 

"Stalingrad was the end of the beginning....Kursk was the beginning of the end"

Winston Churchill

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... way more ground stuff to code/model for Kursk, and since they got burned with CoD i'm guessing Stalingrad is just safer option .

 

reg

Z

Edited by fly_zo

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Which again bodes well for the product. It seems to me theese guys have a sound plan and are sticking to it.

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Stalingrad was the turning point of the whole war.

You could say the same about significance of Battle of Britain.

 

As player I see it much more interesting to see a city included on the map, not just steppe and some villages which I think Kursk map would have been.

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Stalingrad = better known.

 

Give me a Kursk expansion however and I'll cry with happiness. (hell give me any theatre and I'll do teh dance of joy, but I am a Eastern Front fan so....)

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Stalingrad was when many Germans realised they would lose the war, barring a miracle. That made Stalingrad the big turning point of the war.

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Stalingrad is perfect. It's the turning point in the war for the East (the Russians never lost any significant ground after Stalingrad) and it's the place where the VVS went from a out dated, ill coordinated and ill equipped fighting force to a fully modern air force. In June 1942 they were still flying Vic formations and the best they could call on was the slightly upgraded Yak-1 from the year before. By December 1942, in the thick of the battle for Stalingrad, they were flying finger four formations with new La-5 and Yak-9 fighters being added to the mix. For the Germans and their Allies, they went into Stalingrad supremely confident of their abilities to break the Soviet armies and secure the oil and other natural resources they needed to continue to wage the war effectively.

 

As far as the game development goes, it's a fairly even set of aircraft by October 1942 with relative equality fighter to fighter and bomber to bomber and the action is all contained in a fairly small geographical area. So history and game development both agree that this is a good choice. Even better than Moscow IMHO.

 

Kursk by all accounts wasn't a turning point but, rather, it was the natural conclusion of what had begun at Stalingrad. It was truly a titanic battle that arguably broke the back of the German war machine but the momentum had already been set. After Stalingrad, Hitler became more and more involved in the military decision making process, which, as we know, caused many more problems.

 

So 777 could, from here, easily go to Kursk, Moscow, even Lenningrad for Eastern Front and spend the development time dealing with the bigger scale of the battles. I hope to see a bit more East Front stuff but I would also love to see them expand the product into the Mediterranean and Western Europe.

Edited by IceFire
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The Eastern Europe block is a huge market and BOS fits right into it perfectly. I would venture an opinion that to the Russians, the defense of Stalingrad would evoke similar feelings as the Brits have regarding BOB. Nothing like a captive enthusiastic audience available to market to.

 

Also, as I understand it, the acquisition of resources from BOM would enable a quicker turn-around in development than starting completely from scratch.

 

BOS is, as was previously posted, more known to the West and therefore marketing would have a leg-up thereby ensuring clients on both sides of the Atlantic.

 

Cheers

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Why not Stalingrad? The bottom line is that we have a viable sim with room to expand and a base to buy it..

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Great replies and good discussion.  Thanks for taking the time.  I'm just glad someone has taken up the torch for WWII flight sims and whatever the theater or map I'll be a happy camper.  Merry Christmas

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Why not Stalingrad? The bottom line is that we have a viagbel sim with room to expand and a base to buy it..

 

Talking about expanding: ROF was just expanded with Channel map. No London included, like there was in CoD, but anyway.

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Battle of Britain is, where Brits won the war.

 

Normandy is, where the US won the war.

 

Stalingrad is, where the Soviet Union won the war.

 

(So every wannabe-historican has his own story of his personal victory to tell.)

 

 

And now go figure, where BoS is designed and programmed.

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Stalingrad was when many Germans realised they would lose the war, barring a miracle. That made Stalingrad the big turning point of the war.

Agree.

Edited by Richie

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Stalingrad would have the advantage that it could easily get a bit more interesting with including some of Germany's allies (best would be Hungarians or Italians with a map stretching a little more to the west, and Romanians who are on the current map). But it is at least doubtful that the developers take this chance

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For me it doesnt matter, I love Il2 and cant wai to see this new series coming alive, so it can start 45 in Berlin and end in 39 in Poland oreven in Spain 36 ... so hey, whats up!  :rolleyes:

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Over in the US eastern front is sadly barely talked about in k-12 history classes. I learned more about eastern front playing IL2 than I did in high school :)

 

Staligrad average US people recognize from the movie Enemy at the Gates, plus other eastern front games like the upcoming Company of Heroes 2 and Red Orchestra 2. It has the most mass appeal outside of Russia for an eastern front theater.

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Stalingrad is arguably the most famous battle on Eastern Front.

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Over in the US eastern front is sadly barely talked about in k-12 history classes. I learned more about eastern front playing IL2 than I did in high school :)

 

Staligrad average US people recognize from the movie Enemy at the Gates, plus other eastern front games like the upcoming Company of Heroes 2 and Red Orchestra 2. It has the most mass appeal outside of Russia for an eastern front theater.

I know this will get me raked over the coals but beyond history buffs does a WWII battle have the same impact 70 years after the fact it did a couple of generations ago? Most of the people who were present at the time are gone or fast going to be sadly. Their children too are leaving this life at an increasing rate. The world will soon see what most of us now recognize as a turning point for mankind in the way we look at events before our time. It might be interesting but hardly affects us the same way.

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I don't think it will get you raked over the coals Rjel, I agree with you, do the kids today understand what their fathers,grandfathers did for them? Some do..yes they have been taught. Sadly most do not, its not in their generation to know D-day is June 6 or what VE,VJ day means. Most kids couldn't tell you where Stalingrad was much less what it means to WW2. I hate it when on Facebook someone always says "Happy memorial day". HUh? what? That's a day to honor the guys that paid the ultimate price..not have jello shooters! Ok I'm getting this way off topic so I'll shut up.   As you were.....S!    

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I know this will get me raked over the coals but beyond history buffs does a WWII battle have the same impact 70 years after the fact it did a couple of generations ago? Most of the people who were present at the time are gone or fast going to be sadly. Their children too are leaving this life at an increasing rate. The world will soon see what most of us now recognize as a turning point for mankind in the way we look at events before our time. It might be interesting but hardly affects us the same way.

 

While I am sure that the US/UK/other markets are welcome money to 1c777, as far as I know, the two biggest traditional PC games markets for the last several years have been Russia and Germany.  So really you need to consider what those two markets know about, at least to build the userbase up first.

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I think y'all are missing Rjel's point. Re read his post. Does a world war two battle matter to the kids today? Do they even know what it means or the impact it has on the world today? If I said Iraq or Desert Shield or 9/11 to a 21 year old he or she would know just what I was talking about...but Stalingrad? Most kids would tell me that's in Texas or Idaho! :rolleyes:

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Being one of the last Baby-Boomers and growing up during the Cold War we were brought up to believe the Russians were the Bad Guys! (Probably more Hollywoods fault more than anyones elses!)

 

One of the things that really impresses me about being involved in the flight sim community is that it transcends borders and can bring people together. With the IL-2 series in particular, it has given me a focus to study parts of history that were previously hidden to me.

 

Mucking around in the flight sim is just one part of this, Hopefully I will use BoS as an opportunity to study about the struggles of one of our Allies in WWII, to learn about their struggles, triumphs and tragedies.

 

The Battle of Stalingrad is as good a places as any for the new series, also the winter landscape and conditions will be an  interesting change.

Edited by Skoshi_Tiger

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Cause nothing can compare to it:

 

Casualties and losses

Axis

est. 750,000 killed, missing or wounded
including 91,000 captured
900 aircraft (including 274 transports and 165 bombers used as transports)
1,500 tanks
6,000 artillery pieces[1]:122???

Edited by Ataros

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Yes there are theatre's we were all taught were 'the turning point, BofB, for the brits etc, But where does this sim SELL. Apparently it does far better in the home country - the East,than it does in the west, so we'd better enjoy the benefits of that market. 

Lets face it how many sims have we all bought - and now cannot play, Remember Janes USAF/F-18,

 

This is progress and it must be driven by profit, the teams are not making much on the sim, look how long it takes to develop...paydays are well apart on the business model.

I am looking forward to an amalgamation of attributes from each sim, more flyable aircraft, (not just 25-Mks of the same aircraft),

But if its for historical accuracy, I can wait for the modders to put cockpits on the AI's later.

 

I'm sure it'll be brillaint

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good memories of the stalingrad map

some of the best missions we flew were at stalingrad

the old VEF missions were excellent fun

 

lots of mission variety feet wet or dry

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I think a Winter/Snow Map will be easier to model & a good place for 777 to get its feet wet ( er...snow covered...) It can work out minor glitches more easily & perhaps aplly those solutions to other future ( i hope) maps.

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Battle of Kursk at least would  give us allot better plane set and a 190  B)

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When it comes down to it, a computer simulation like BoS is a creative work. The final say in the composition of the Simulation comes down to the Artists (the Developers) that are going to create it.

I would rather have a sim based on period of time that the developers are passionate about rather than one that has been chosen for popularity.

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I know this will get me raked over the coals but beyond history buffs does a WWII battle have the same impact 70 years after the fact it did a couple of generations ago? Most of the people who were present at the time are gone or fast going to be sadly. Their children too are leaving this life at an increasing rate. The world will soon see what most of us now recognize as a turning point for mankind in the way we look at events before our time. It might be interesting but hardly affects us the same way.

Yes and no. The WWII movie genre, although a little quiet right now, was still very popular even just a few years ago. I think WWII resonates so well because it was experienced so widely, because the story is one of those "great" stories (even if war is horrific... it spawned so many other stories), and because the technology from then is something that you can still relate to. We still have airplanes, submarines, missiles, machine guns, and the like. What we have now is obviously much more advanced but the basic concepts are all fairly similar and we haven't experienced a kind of giant shift on the modern battlefield away from these things. If we go back 200-400 years the cavalry, artillery, swords, etc. are less what modern war looks like.

 

I think you're question/comment is valid. There is less of an impact but still the ability to relate. I'm not sure if we'll reach a time in my lifespan where it becomes too old of a story to relate to but it will eventually happen, I'm sure.

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Over in the US eastern front is sadly barely talked about in k-12 history classes. I learned more about eastern front playing IL2 than I did in high school :)

 

Staligrad average US people recognize from the movie Enemy at the Gates, plus other eastern front games like the upcoming Company of Heroes 2 and Red Orchestra 2. It has the most mass appeal outside of Russia for an eastern front theater.

 

Me too which is one of the many things that I will forever be indebted to 1CMG for .. I had no idea that the Soviets had such an airforce.. or that they played such a key role in WWII. IL2 kind of lit that fire and I started looking at 20th century history from a broader perspective.

 

I know this will get me raked over the coals but beyond history buffs does a WWII battle have the same impact 70 years after the fact it did a couple of generations ago? Most of the people who were present at the time are gone or fast going to be sadly. Their children too are leaving this life at an increasing rate. The world will soon see what most of us now recognize as a turning point for mankind in the way we look at events before our time. It might be interesting but hardly affects us the same way.

I think y'all are missing Rjel's point. Re read his post. Does a world war two battle matter to the kids today? Do they even know what it means or the impact it has on the world today? If I said Iraq or Desert Shield or 9/11 to a 21 year old he or she would know just what I was talking about...but Stalingrad? Most kids would tell me that's in Texas or Idaho! :rolleyes:

 

Consider how many people in our generation felt about WWI. For me WWII was different.. I grew up with

..
.. 
..
.. and so may other shows.. We had Sgt. Rock in comics.. and Nick Fury and his Howling Commandoes .. That was where I first heard the term "Gott in Himmel!" ... a comic book.. G.I. Joes back then were WWII figures.. and then there were all the Hollywood films portraying WWII that are just too numeroust to go into.. When I was 10 WWII was only 20 years away. My neighbor was a WWII vet ... and even in my 20s.. there was
although I missed a lot of that because I was in the military at the time. So our generation looks at WWII in a totally different light.. From the American perspective even the criminal soldiers as in "The Dirty Dozen" .. were able to redeem themselves .. A lot of the real dirty aspects of war that all sides are susceptible to were not shown to us until films about Viet Nam .. and Mash came out..

Back then schools were different as well.. we had less distractions and the teaching was different.. in my school in The Bronx getting left back was a shameful shameful thing.. These kids today are different..

 

Being one of the last Baby-Boomers and growing up during the Cold War we were brought up to believe the Russians were the Bad Guys! (Probably more Hollywoods fault more than anyones elses!)

 

One of the things that really impresses me about being involved in the flight sim community is that it transcends borders and can bring people together. With the IL-2 series in particular, it has given me a focus to study parts of history that were previously hidden to me.

 

Mucking around in the flight sim is just one part of this, Hopefully I will use BoS as an opportunity to study about the struggles of one of our Allies in WWII, to learn about their struggles, triumphs and tragedies.

 

The Battle of Stalingrad is as good a places as any for the new series, also the winter landscape and conditions will be an  interesting change.

 

I couldn't agree more... I am really looking forward to a next generation WWII sim that has all the things that made IL2 great.. even if they re different.. There was a mix of things in IL2 that made it as popular as it was .. and I know that this will be different and have different things in different measures.. but I hope it has the same kind of impact.

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I'm glad this isn't a first shooter..witch I can't play anyway. II can't shoot people. I would be full of fleas starving to death freezing to death with no ammo trying to figure out a way how to kill myself before the Russias got hold of me LOL.

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With the Battle of Kursk only  7 months into '43 the plane set would be virtually the same.

No, it wouldn't.

 

the turning point of the war was Kursk

No, it wasn't.

 

Any other questions?

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Whilst Kursk was the scene of the largest aircraft concentrations of the war, Stalingrad makes sense because it'd be kind of difficult to show off those aircraft concentrations to full effect, plus of course Stalingrad has the added drama of the air resupply.

 

As to significance, I think it'd be safe to say that Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk and maybe even Bagration were all turning points.

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There is a three part three hour long documentary called "Survivores Of Stalingrad" that I would recomend people watch if they want to learn more.

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If you need to designate one specific "turning point", it is 22 June 1941. That is when Germany moved from the "Not Losing" column to "Losing". In fact, there was never a plan to defeat the nation that was invaded on that day, nor any attempt at understanding the USSR forces and capabilities.

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If you need to designate one specific "turning point", it is 22 June 1941. That is when Germany moved from the "Not Losing" column to "Losing". In fact, there was never a plan to defeat the nation that was invaded on that day, nor any attempt at understanding the USSR forces and capabilities.

 

Agree completely.

 

As to the OP; could we be going to Stalingrad because on the release timescale the team have set themselves they are going to have to use the work done on the CoD sequel map by 1C and import it into the DN engine?  Let me be clear, this is not an attempt at a flame or hijack.  Just wandering............if they can import some aspects of the CoD sequel 'plane models into this engine could they not import work done on maps also?

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"Stalingrad was the end of the beginning....Kursk was the beginning of the end"

Winston Churchill

 

He didn't said that.

He said that regarding the Afrika Korps and its defeat at the second battle of El Alamein.

 

Quote Churchill:

...General Alexander, with his brilliant comrade and leftenant, General Montgomery, has gained a glorious and decisive victory in what I think should be called the Battle of Egypt.

Rommel's Army has been defeated. It has been routed. It has been very largely destroyed as a fighting force.

Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.

Henceforward Hitler's Nazis will meet equally well armed, and perhaps better armed troops.

Henceforward they will have to face in many theatres of war that superiority in the air which they have so often used without mercy against other, of which they boasted all round the world...

The Lord Mayor's Luncheon, Mansion House

November 10, 1942

 

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