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Developer Diary, Part 161 - Discussion

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Stop arguing and here's a gift for the weekend. The Spitfire really is a gorgeous aircraft. 

 

attachicon.gifSpitfire_4K_WP.jpg

 

Jason

 

My fiancée just left for a week - if there was a time to release the Spitfire, it's now!   ;) 

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Can we at least fly .012 for an hour or two before completely freaking out about the FM? It's a simple request.

Absolutely NOT. We MUST pre-judge the upcoming changes to the simulations flight model.

It is imperative for us to be unreasonable and negative. To be otherwise would make us reasonable and positive in our thinking and we can't have or let alone expect that. :rolleyes:

Edited by Thad
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Even mention FM outside FM board should lead to a 1 week ban, it has been proven that this community is not capable to deal with this theme. And if it was to be brought up evidence is needed.

I think the user group here is scattered between not historical interested to very historical interested, game focused to sim focused . There can never be agreement between those polarised points of views.

 

I myself have interest in the people participating in the war, the pilots. and what they did with what equipment. If I know the story of people flying a particular plane , I want to feel what they described. This is why I am very interested in IL 2 and PE 2, the LAGG and LA 5 And to a point the FW 190 , even when everyone was complaining about its FM I recognised the description of that plane from people that flew it, and to me that is sufficient. 

This is why I will fly a lot of COD Beufighters in Africa , because I read about its squadrons and pilots, I hope I can get the same feeling. Personally I do not care much about the rest, Not roll rate and other technical stuff, I consider this to be a well simulated game

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Even mention FM outside FM board should lead to a 1 week ban, it has been proven that this community is not capable to deal with this theme. And if it was to be brought up evidence is needed.

I think the user group here is scattered between not historical interested to very historical interested, game focused to sim focused . There can never be agreement between those polarised points of views.

 

I myself have interest in the people participating in the war, the pilots. and what they did with what equipment. If I know the story of people flying a particular plane , I want to feel what they described. This is why I am very interested in IL 2 and PE 2, the LAGG and LA 5 And to a point the FW 190 , even when everyone was complaining about its FM I recognised the description of that plane from people that flew it, and to me that is sufficient.

This is why I will fly a lot of COD Beufighters in Africa , because I read about its squadrons and pilots, I hope I can get the same feeling. Personally I do not care much about the rest, Not roll rate and other technical stuff, I consider this to be a well simulated game

No, it is similar to what passes for political discourse in this day and age. The vast majority are moderates/centrists. It's just that the loudest and/or craziest are the ones mashing their keyboards. Look at any news forum or chat. This community is pretty good for the most part, the moderation is good (was a little more strict before actually) and the Devs present an excellent product despite our input as much as because if our input. Don't lose faith in humanity quite yet.

 

Oh yeah, and you are WRONG!!!!! ;) ;)

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Awesome, really looking forward to both of these updates, the flight model stuff sounds really good and like it was a lot of hard work so great job!

 

On a small personal note I just wanted to say I'm thrilled about the Spitfire in the next update as my Dad is coming all the way from New Zealand to visit me here in Germany in two weeks, and he's a big fan of the Spitfire so I will be able to give him a flight in it as his first VR experience! :)

Edited by Soilworker
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Even mention FM outside FM board should lead to a 1 week ban, it has been proven that this community is not capable to deal with this theme. And if it was to be brought up evidence is needed.

I think the user group here is scattered between not historical interested to very historical interested, game focused to sim focused . There can never be agreement between those polarised points of views.

 

I myself have interest in the people participating in the war, the pilots. and what they did with what equipment. If I know the story of people flying a particular plane , I want to feel what they described. This is why I am very interested in IL 2 and PE 2, the LAGG and LA 5 And to a point the FW 190 , even when everyone was complaining about its FM I recognised the description of that plane from people that flew it, and to me that is sufficient.

This is why I will fly a lot of COD Beufighters in Africa , because I read about its squadrons and pilots, I hope I can get the same feeling. Personally I do not care much about the rest, Not roll rate and other technical stuff, I consider this to be a well simulated game

 

And yet, with the new FM it became a completely new/different plane.

 
Sure i don't deny the fact that for you, it was "sufficient" (you said it), but for those who know this plane, sorry but no, it was far to be the case.
 
And hum... Saying that the community "cannot deal" with this theme... I really have to remind you all FM issues that have been fixed because of reports made by the community ?

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Thanks for the update! Really looking forward to flying the Spitfire and the FM tuning coming in .012 sounds great!  :good: 

 

That the Me-109 roll rate will be reduced to more realistic levels is also good news since in the current FM it rolls better than IRL. It would also be nice if this working over of the roll rates will eventually extend to other planes as well since in the current FM some are pretty close to the Fw-190 in this regard.....

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Super update!

 

Always good to know there is more great stuff just around the corner, first Spitfire then new FM: just look at that change list...

 

Happy Days to come! :yahoo:

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Thanks for the update. Really excited for the big updates coming and some cool new planes.

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I would say that unique sense of flight is exactly the thing that needs to be removed ;)

Joking aside, I also hope the feel of speed etc. isn't removed, just the horrible wobblying :)

 

I agree with you. Especially with the Bf 109F4/G2!

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The DEVs deserve  all our appreciation. They ARE listening to the community and errors ARE being corrected. What else can we ask for? I REALLY cross my fingers for the wobbling to stop with my Saitek Xpro 52. In the DEVs I trust! :)

I put all my chips on the Scripted Campaings! I am really enjoying the 10 Days and about to buy the next one.  :P

I am NOT being sarcastic but this wobbling is getting in my nerves (sorry for the pic :rolleyes: )... as a matter of fact I am getting the second scripted campaign right now  ;) ..... a bit later ..... Done!  :P

 

fix_wobbly_ceiling_fan.jpg

Edited by -=PHX=-Spartan-

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I guess there was a typo that quickly got corrected since the first point about Bf 109F/Gs is now: 1. Their roll rate at various flight conditions has been corrected (decreased at medium and high speeds).

 

 Corrected after I had been puzzling over it for half an hour .....I was constructing all kinds of scenarios in my head to reconcile those two statements....  :)

 

Makes more sense now I suppose.

 

Good stuff anyway.

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I always had the subjective impression that planes in this series behaved as if they were too light. Fluttering about a bit too much. I guess this dev update will fix that, which I look forward to seeing.

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And hum... Saying that the community "cannot deal" with this theme... I really have to remind you all FM issues that have been fixed because of reports made by the community ?

 

 

With the possible exception of the 190, I'd say the Devs have continuously fixed the FM's in partnership with the community not because of the community. The number of changes made on a month to month basis has been astounding. That they still strive to improve is testament to their dedication to accuracy. It's an evolutionary process.

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but for those who know this plane

 

Show me one person "knowing this plane" and I will listen. Because there is no simulator , nor  simulated environment that remotely can duplicate the real thing virtually. But in theory I guess you know more about it than me.

 

That said I think this simulator has earned its IL 2 brand. It is truly a successor. A better and easier ME and offline feature . And tis will truly be the new modern and astonishing IL 2 we dreamt about 10 years ago, only much more beautiful

Edited by 216th_LuseKofte

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This is why I will fly a lot of COD Beufighters in Africa , because I read about its squadrons and pilots, I hope I can get the same feeling. Personally I do not care much about the rest, Not roll rate and other technical stuff, I consider this to be a well simulated game

 

 

Hahahahaha .... seriously, and what "feeling" would that be LuseKote?    Doom?  A realization you're about to die?  Hopelessness?

 

I had an uncle (now long dead) who flew recce Spits off Malta in late '41 or '42.  He said he remembered the Beaufort and Beaufighter strike crews (cos my Dad was one of them) hanging around the airfield at Luqa, grey-faced, sunken-eyed, twitching, biting their fingernails or chain-smoking, just waiting for their next and probably last operation.

 

Is that the feeling you're talking about when you fly one of our little video games LuseKote? 

Edited by Wulf

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Stop arguing and here's a gift for the weekend. The Spitfire really is a gorgeous aircraft. 

 

attachicon.gifSpitfire_4K_WP.jpg

 

Jason

 

 

That really is gorgeous, very much looking forward to taking my own screenshots of that very pretty machine, maybe you can release it now Jason so we can do our own testing, the campaign can come later. ;)

 

The game does seem to be coming along in leaps and bounds, every DD shows further improvements to a already great game.

 

Love the skins of the Hs-129 as well, that really is looking good also. :cool:

 

All the best, Pete. :biggrin:

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Looking forward to the reworked FM. I think it's going to change the subjective feeling about the aircraft a lot. While much is said to be more 'realistic', to me it often reads as more 'fun'.

 

I like the details you give for the particular aircraft, its going to be nice. What I do miss is a statement about the fix for the yaw instability of the P-40, I was hoping it got fixed now with all the other changes being made.

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Hahahahaha .... seriously, and what "feeling" would that be LuseKote?    Doom?  A realization you're about to die?  Hopelessness?

 

I had an uncle (now long dead) who flew recce Spits off Malta in late '41 or '42.  He said he remembered the Beaufort and Beaufighter strike crews (cos my Dad was one of them) hanging around the airfield at Luqa, grey-faced, sunken-eyed, twitching, biting their fingernails or chain-smoking, just waiting for their next and probably last operation.

 

Is that the feeling you're talking about when you fly one of our little video games LuseKote? 

 

 

Chill out, he was talking about wanting to get a little insight into the experience of the guys who flew in the war, not unreasonable even from a game.

 

 

And frankly unless you've ever been in a proper war and know what it feels like then leave it to men who have to chatter so about it.  Otherwise it wears poorly and smacks of misplaced self-righteousness.

Edited by 7-GvShAP/Silas
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Chill out, he was talking about wanting to get a little insight into the experience of the guys who flew in the war, not unreasonable even from a game.

 

 

And frankly unless you've ever been in a proper war and know what it feels like then leave it to men who have to chatter so about it.  Otherwise it wears poorly and smacks of misplaced self-righteousness.

 

 

And what "insight" exactly, do you imagine you're going to get from a video game ? 

 

Let's put this another way, if you're a veteran, of some sort, which I infer from your comments you may be; which video game provides the best insight into your war (proper or not)?

 

Maybe you should consider taking a leaf out of your own advice book on the subject of self-righteousness.

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Hahahahaha .... seriously, and what "feeling" would that be LuseKote?    Doom?  A realization you're about to die?  Hopelessness?

 

I had an uncle (now long dead) who flew recce Spits off Malta in late '41 or '42.  He said he remembered the Beaufort and Beaufighter strike crews (cos my Dad was one of them) hanging around the airfield at Luqa, grey-faced, sunken-eyed, twitching, biting their fingernails or chain-smoking, just waiting for their next and probably last operation.

 

Is that the feeling you're talking about when you fly one of our little video games LuseKote? 

 

Actually yes.  Some echo of that gravity, depth of feeling and enormity of events are what singleplayers are always looking for.

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Love the skins of the Hs-129 as well, that really is looking good also.

There are so many Panzerjager fans, so You can organise Your squad :) 

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Looking forward to the reworked FM. I think it's going to change the subjective feeling about the aircraft a lot. While much is said to be more 'realistic', to me it often reads as more 'fun'.

 

I like the details you give for the particular aircraft, its going to be nice. What I do miss is a statement about the fix for the yaw instability of the P-40, I was hoping it got fixed now with all the other changes being made.

I'm pretty sure it will be affected a lot :)

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Hahahahaha .... seriously, and what "feeling" would that be LuseKote?

 

A feeling I like , thank you very much. You being [edited] does not change that 

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
Lenguage
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I see the huge FM overhaul skeptic on paper sounds everything cool. :coffee:

Edited by Livai

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As I'm understanding it, the coming FM update will affect all the A/C in the game. What does this mean for the Spitfire we are to get in the next patch? Will it feature a peek at the newer FM?

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Absolutely NOT. We MUST pre-judge the upcoming changes to the simulations flight model.

It is imperative for us to be unreasonable and negative. To be otherwise would make us reasonable and positive in our thinking and we can't have or let alone expect that. :rolleyes:

 

I Agree +100
This is exactly the way that we can improve the sim (while being positive and constructive of course) 
 
@ 216th_LuseKofte : why are we not able to deal with the FM theme ? What would be the 190 FM without input from the community ? This will always be a good approach to re-balance FM, damage models / plane resistance and especially armament efficiency that are subjects still on the table. Without those continuous exchange we would not have such a global FM patch coming now ... So YES it is a virtuous circle as far as it is explained and constructive.  
 
To come back to the topic, this should be a decisive patch. 
 
Maybe the end of the wobbling and the beginning of a new era, changing plane behavior (I cross fingers) in a positive way. So yes of course it is time to share ideas, feelings and feedback because devs hopefully always listen to the community at the end. So, as previously stated, I agree it's time to mix the current "only data" based approach with the description of planes from people story who flew it. 

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I agree it's time to mix the current "only data" based approach with the description of planes from people story who flew it. 

 

 

+1

 

I think due to the way we fly these aircraft, and the way they were flown back then, alot of things we do/ issues we run into are not things that are really found in a flight test. It is hard to 'Graph' a dogfight like it is speed vs altitude etc. These things are hard enough to test today, let alone in the 1940s when they didn't have all the wonders of modern sensors and flight test equipment that we do now. This is what makes plausibility checks so important in things like this. Obviously there is a certain amount of educated assuming involved in creating an FM. That's basically what engineers do every day. This is the data I have, these are the conditions, can I or can I not assume that this model is correct/correct enough to provide an accurate picture of reality. Obviously you can't change everything based on the comments of one new guy who doesn't know how to fly his aircraft well, but there are certainly some people here with both enough real flying experience, and a good feeling for what is happening in their virtual airplane that when they say 'hey guys, maybe look at this because it seems to contradict the laws of physics' that it should be worth looking into.

 

Obviously this example is somewhat exaggerated but I think you'll get my point. All in all very pleased to read the summary of FM fixes. Certainly appears to address some of the biggest issues in the FM's of all aircraft atm. Definitely looking forward to flying it in July/August!

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As I'm understanding it, the coming FM update will affect all the A/C in the game. What does this mean for the Spitfire we are to get in the next patch? Will it feature a peek at the newer FM?

I don't think so. .011 will bring us the Spitfire and the new campaign only. The FM fix is global plus aircraft specific tweaks. You won't see the overall FM changes for a few more weeks in .012.

 

On the otherhand, the Spitfire will probably be very refined as their previous work/experience will be payed forward. On the other other hand, we haven't had a single aircraft NOT get tweaks as we go. So, the Spit will be refined but receive updates along the way to the full release of Kuban as well.

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf

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I always had the subjective impression that planes in this series behaved as if they were too light. Fluttering about a bit too much. I guess this dev update will fix that, which I look forward to seeing.

 

I agree with you, we will wait for the result ...

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I think due to the way we fly these aircraft, and the way they were flown back then, alot of things we do/ issues we run into are not things that are really found in a flight test.aws of physics' that it should be worth looking into.

 

You do realise that how we fly these aircraft in a computer sim bears absolutely no comparison to what actually took place in WW2?

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You do realise that how we fly these aircraft in a computer sim bears absolutely no comparison to what actually took place in WW2?

you do realise that this doesnt necessarily make any sense? of course you can fly the aircraft in a sim similar to how they flew it in that war or any other...as long as the flight models permit, and as long as the game is worth to be called a simluation....

Edited by 9./JG27DavidRed

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The point still stands. The way air combat was flown IRL doesn't necessarily resemble a 1940s era flight test program either.

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you do realise that this doesnt necessarily make any sense? of course you can fly the aircraft in a sim similar to how they flew it in that war or any other...as long as the flight models permit, and as long as the game is worth to be called a simluation....

Maybe as a flight sim, although even then still not really.  As a combat flight sim then absolutely not. 

 

Only if you are prepared to uninstall the game if you are killed (in game, obviously) or not play the game for a period if you are injured and maybe, if badly injured, downgraded from flying duties so uninstall the game also.

 

In short, there is no JEOPARDY.  That one small simple fact makes all the difference.

Edited by HagarTheHorrible

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that small fact has nothing to do with the flight modeling of the aircraft, and neither with the fighting techniques they used in real life or which are used in combat flight sims.furthermore a jeopardy is possible and used by the mission designers...and if you read defaultface's post, you see that you take the discussion quite out of context now...

Edited by 9./JG27DavidRed

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 of course you can fly the aircraft in a sim similar to how they flew it in that war or any other...as long as the flight models permit, and as long as the game is worth to be called a simluation....

 

Of course you can fly the aircraft in a sim similar to how they flew it in that war or any other.....but we don't. 

 

In the real world aircraft took off on operations in groups with full fuel tanks and had flights lasting an hour and a half to two hours plus for single engine fighters.  The flew with a pre-determined purpose over a predetermined course.

 

They maintained a group formation which gave them cohesion as a fighting unit when they encountered an enemy.

 

The group leader did the fighting.

 

They very, very rarely entered turning fights with enemy aircraft.  The art of the fighter pilot is the bounce; the ability to creep up on an opponent and blow his brains before they know any thing about it. 

 

They would more often avoid combat if they found themselves in an adverse tactical situation.  

 

Most combat flight sims offer us all the tools to replicate what actually took place.  Do we ever fully use these tools?  I think not,  but we certainly do confuse our experiences flying on WoL or the Berluga server with the reality of WW2 aerial combat.  

 

In real life; no one took off alone - with half a tank of fuel to face the enemy and they never willingly gave up a position of tactical advantage to enter a turning fight.  The terms 'turn and burn' and 'boom and zoom' which we virtual fighter pilots love so much we utterly alien to the pilots of WW2.  

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What I understood, from Han's DD 161 and previous, is that they found a more realistic way of modeling the interaction of the slipstream with the fuselage that can potentially bring, for all aircraft, a better modelling of aspects like roll-yaw coupling, sideforces due to sideslip, and other, inclding also pitch stability ( probably due to the propwash and downwash interaction with the tail surfaces...

 

I don't think that when released the SPITFIRE will bring those changes since they're supposed to reflect in the core of the sim, and are supoosed to be out in late July / early Aurgust.

 

Overall I have good expectations towards the quality of the Spitfire flight dynamics and overall modeling, just as I get from all other models in il2 Battle of...

 

Regarding the core update, again for the past experience with everythig 1C / 777 has been giving it's users, my expectations are rather positive and enthusiastic because the described problems have long been identified by the community, and we have long been asking for fine tunning in those areas, so...

 

I believe all we should do is wait, and at least give the benefit of doubt to the 1C / 777 Team, which has never given us any reasons not to believe they are dedicated and quality developers.

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Of course you can fly the aircraft in a sim similar to how they flew it in that war or any other.....but we don't. 

 

In the real world aircraft took off on operations in groups with full fuel tanks and had flights lasting an hour and a half to two hours plus for single engine fighters.  The flew with a pre-determined purpose over a predetermined course.

 

They maintained a group formation which gave them cohesion as a fighting unit when they encountered an enemy.

 

The group leader did the fighting.

 

They very, very rarely entered turning fights with enemy aircraft.  The art of the fighter pilot is the bounce; the ability to creep up on an opponent and blow his brains before they know any thing about it. 

 

They would more often avoid combat if they found themselves in an adverse tactical situation.  

 

Most combat flight sims offer us all the tools to replicate what actually took place.  Do we ever fully use these tools?  I think not,  but we certainly do confuse our experiences flying on WoL or the Berluga server with the reality of WW2 aerial combat.  

 

In real life; no one took off alone - with half a tank of fuel to face the enemy and they never willingly gave up a position of tactical advantage to enter a turning fight.  The terms 'turn and burn' and 'boom and zoom' which we virtual fighter pilots love so much we utterly alien to the pilots of WW2.  

Sorry but it's all your interpretation and fantasy.

1)You never were in combat in 1940-45.

2)You never know how many pilots have been involved into dogfights, not only group leaders.

3) You never have read any book about fighter pilots memories .it's very clear.

Then please stop to tell what your imagination is telling to your finger here, write only what you really know about TRUE WW2  fighter experience, not this crap of fantasy.cheers.

Edited by EAF_51_FOX
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