Jump to content

The US Army and Race in WWII


Recommended Posts

No good will come if this.

Predicting one ban and a lock.

 

There shouldn't be a problem if people simply accept that that's how it was back then, and a great many things have changed.

 

Personally, I find it fascinating to see how attitudes have changed.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a bit odd that a German is shining a light on racism in the WWII era. Of course, being aware of Klaus' other rants, it's not entirely surprising.

 

It's common knowledge that the US Military integrated before most institutions in the US. Unraveling slavery and racism was an admittedly slow process but the military was at the forefront of those efforts. Which makes this topic more ironic than several other angles which it could have been approached from.

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Meanwhile in the Red Army:

 

InnerandCentralAsianstudies_RobertoCarma

 

Just kidding ofc :biggrin: The USSR had its fair share of racism towards many of its 100 ethnic groups, just no official state-sanctioned racism.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

just no official state-sanctioned racism.

 

Not really an accurate statement, given the number of ethnic groups that were deported wholesale. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to clarify: Yes, there was state-sponsored racism in the USSR, at times plenty of it, but it was never official and relied on cover-ups and heavy use of euphemisms.

 

Officially there was no race policies in the USSR.

Link to post
Share on other sites

We haven't perfected the ideals of the founding fathers but we keep working on it. I'm proud of our history, however imperfect.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

We haven't perfected the ideals of the founding fathers but we keep working on it. I'm proud of our history, however imperfect.

Hear hear.

 

Klaus is probably the most anti-American person on this forum judging from his past comments I've seen. Most often looking for a reaction of some sort. Never an actual discussion. Some call that trolling...

 

I'm glad I have better things to do than scrutinize other country's histories. Interesting video nonetheless. It's no secret racism was rampant in the past across many countries. Hell...some countries even put forth industrial genocide. Imagine that.

Link to post
Share on other sites

TBH it's quite interesting how wars have helped civil rights to move forward but sadly in the worst circumstances. As with race, there was also women in the first world war and their work in the war machine showing they aren't just pretty housewife

Link to post
Share on other sites

A word on the old lady on the train.

 

She probably had racist views too, in the early twentieth century these were not just the norm, but supported by science. What the old lady had, however, was good manners, which in essence consists of treating people politely even if you would not let your daughters marry them. She was no doubt also wondering if it was really that big. Remember, that until the 1960s, outside the port areas of London, Bristol and Liverpool, where Negro sailors would have given the local lasses a taste of the exotic, hardly anyone in Britain would have ever seen a black man in their lives.  

 

Racism was a fact of life in the US in the mid 20th century, as it still is in about 80% of the planet. (If anyone thinks that Americans or Europeans are horrible racists they should try living in Asia a for a while, that will put things into perspective).   The U.S. Army could hardly be expected not to share this to some degree: but as others has pointed out, it was ahead of wider US society in dealing with the issue, and was not at all a reactionary institution. 

 

As for the British Empire: the story is a little more complicated. In India, segregation was primarily along religious lines. Sikhs, Hindus and Mohammedans regiments had to be segregated and could not mix intimately with their white officers; or for that matter with one another;  since they could not eat the same food.  In Africa, however, the treatment of the Negro soldiers, which was undoubtedly racist, was purely motivated by a belief that the black man was inherently incapable of organizing a civilized modern society, a  belief happily discredited by the amazing advances the liberated African nations have achieved since independence.

 

As for the communist sympathizers taking the high moral ground in this thread - I can only say that had the USSR had any Negro nationalities in the 1940s they would have been no better treated than anywhere else, as the recent record of racism towards African students and visitors makes clear.

Edited by unreasonable
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hear hear.

 

Klaus is probably the most anti-American person on this forum judging from his past comments I've seen. Most often looking for a reaction of some sort. Never an actual discussion. Some call that trolling...

 

I'm glad I have better things to do than scrutinize other country's histories. Interesting video nonetheless. It's no secret racism was rampant in the past across many countries. Hell...some countries even put forth industrial genocide. Imagine that.

Well, way to do a 180 on my Intent. This was actually meant to put the US Army in a more positive Light, as an Agent of Progress against Racism. 

 

I am also not Categorically against America. I think into the 1960s it was a good Place to build a Live. But then at some Point a complete Perversion took Place, starting with Mccarthy's Red Scare, the Ideas of American Excpetionalism and the Global Dominance of America as the World Police against Communism. 

Hell, even I was Blacklisted under Mccarthy. 

 

It was at that Point that Politics and Political Conversation Died as well, when Massive Money and Interest started Manifesting themselves in Washington, when Political Disussion became all about flinging Labels instead of Discussing Ideas and Policies. 

This is the Time when Wars became an important Part of the Economy, when the Military Industrial Complex drove Wars to fund itself. That's why even after the Cold War the US Army has never been at Peace. 

When a Private Prison Industry became an Anti-Freedom Lobby to drive more Traffic through Prisons. When the Country which Prides itself with being the most Free Country on Earth has the Largest Prison Population TOTAL (more than Chine or India TOTAL) in the World, the most Police Killings in the World etc.. 

 

America has gone massively Wrong, which wouldn't bother me as much if it wasn't for the Arrogance the still Ooze when it comes to their Country. 

 

Yes, we had our Genocide, our Crime of the Century, and know what we did? We thoroughly Paid for it, Apologized and Repented, we allowed ourselves to be Reborn and changed for the Better, 

And if you Read "Mein Kampf" the Expansion of the American West, driving away those Worthless Primitives was an inspiration for the entire Idea of "Lebensraumerweiterung".

 

America has gone wrong in it's Manic Capitalism, with the Baby Boomers stuffing their Pockets, leaving New Generations to gather the Pieces. America took many Wrong Turns after WWII, driven by Fear instilled by  People with Bad Intentions. 

Political Conversation has degraded to a Degree that there is an Actual Hatred along Party Lines between the People. Instead of Discussing Policy Ideas, they just accuse one another of being either Racist, Sexist, Islamophobe etc. or of being Anti-American, Socialist, Communist etc. 

 

You know a lot about the Right Wing Mindset in Ameica when you visit a "Good Guys" Auto or Air-Show. They will justify all kinds of Evil by being the "Good Guys" by Definition and Virtue of being American, and the general Softness of the Left Wing which has become so Autistic it can't even handle Cartoon Frogs. 

These Self Proclaimed "Good Guys" are one of those things that Drive me just as Mad as the Sjrieking Feminists, the Oozing Arrogance and Self Righteousness of these Groups just Shock me, the Lack of Reflection on either Side. 

 

It actually makes me Sad to the US Fail inbetween those. The Potential was there and maybe the Post-Trump Era can see a Revival of Honesty and Discussion. 

  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

... Klaus is probably the most anti-American person ...

Wrong, completely wrong. But to declare something "Anti-US-American" is the cheapest way to ignore critics. After WW2 most Central (and East) Europeans looked with hope and gratitude to the west - to the US and Great Britain, too. This changed a bit, just a bit during the 60 and 70s, but all in all there was a very positive attitude against "The West". Until then it has been a love-story - and Central Europe in it's love was a bit blinded and very forgiving. Anyhow, the western way of living was a commonly accepted standard, the mainstream model all over the world.

  But "The West" beginning in a large scale with Reagan and Thatcher started to game away the assets they had. That part of the western world felt free to forget the lessons learned before: "if you fill your pockets within a democracy you have to share (just a a bit, still no problem to stay or become shameless rich, stupid)". And the people in love could see how the public welfare went down in the UK and the US - against all the promises of those market-preachers the "common people" came under pressure more and more. The people were able to see the disastrous foreign politics of the west, how they enforced their power-play and market religion on any society. It went down in any aspect, anytime we thought "now we're at the absolute minimum", there came the next catastrophe. Today one simply can't imagine if there is anything more crazy than the recent US-Administration or that Brexit-Crew, but they always were able to lower standards! So you wonder? Those cases of today's "anti-US-Americanism" are mostly cases of a deeply disappointed love.

 

  So dear ex-Lover, stop whining, YOU have failed. Citizens of the "The West", it's up to you. Clean up your political systems, care for all the people in your societies, learn to treat your neighbours with respect again. And you will see that "Anti-Americanism" vanish.

  (For Europe: the day Kohl and Mitterrand allowed Thatcher to get away with her brazen denial to pay the fair share, that day was the first step on a way to Orban or Kaczynski - hopefully it's not to late)

Edited by 216th_Retnek
  • Upvote 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I can just about make the effort to stifle my HUGE YAWN long enough to remind my fellow euro-warriors that the United States of America, as it exists today, is to a large extent the creation of rotten old tribal, warring Europe.  Twice, in our relatively recent history the youth, the wealth and the vitality of the USA have had to rescue old Europe when it got itself stuck right up shit creek without a paddle.

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

All I see are people criticizing a country and basically the pot calling the kettle black.
 

Klaus, you know ridiculous things you've said that are absolutely some of the most anti-American hogwash I've personally seen.  It's amazing that someone actually comes here to defend you.  You spout anti-US garbage all the time.  

As I've said, I'm glad so many people are so completely concerned with a country they don't even live in, nor really effects them personally.  It only makes me more proud to be from the U.S.  Regardless of how checkered our past, present or future is/will be.

And then people turn around and wonder why Americans can be arrogant.

Link to post
Share on other sites

All I see are people criticizing a country and basically the pot calling the kettle black.

 

Klaus, you know ridiculous things you've said that are absolutely some of the most anti-American hogwash I've personally seen.  It's amazing that someone actually comes here to defend you.  You spout anti-US garbage all the time.  

 

As I've said, I'm glad so many people are so completely concerned with a country they don't even live in, nor really effects them personally.  It only makes me more proud to be from the U.S.  Regardless of how checkered our past, present or future is/will be.

 

And then people turn around and wonder why Americans can be arrogant.

Hyperbole for Comedic Effect. I would blame America for a Stain on my Shirt. 

 

And yes, US Imperialism does have an Effect on us. The Refugees from US created instability and Crisis are not Landing on your Shores. You don't feel the Economic Ill-Effects of Bad Relations with our Oil and Gas Providers. 

US Foreign Policy Clumsyness is Costing me my Hard Earned Money. And 1+Million Killed in US Foreign/Economic Military Interventions in the Middle East so you have Cheap Fuel is not a laughing Matter to me. But it doesn't matter as long as it isn't precious American Lives. When 6000 of those Die that's worth a Memorial. 

 

If American Policy didn't effect me, trust me I wouldn't care as much as I do, but everytime the US furtherly destabilizes the Middle East my Life gets a little harder here, and even harder for the People who live in Constant Terror of American Air Power. 

 

It's funny reading about the 5.56x45 NATO Cartridge, as it was developed to Perform well against Small Game (.223 Rem.) and thus Selected as an Assault Rifle Cartridge, since most Foes were expected to be of Small Statue and Underfed, where larger, heavier Projectiles would just go Through and Through leaving little Damage. The 5.56 was just Perfect to do Maximum Damage against Underfed People, and thus chosen over an intermediate .30. 

 

I like that even the US Army acknowledged that they would play the Role of Global Bully in Wars to come. 

 

 

Except for the US the Rest of the Western World moved on from Imperialism after the War. And this creates a Ton of Problems for everyone except the US. 

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Klaus, your understanding of ballistics is only superseded by your understanding of...........

sooo many things. I never really managed to be any good at Knitting.

 

Well, there is a Reason the Russians copied the Idea with the 5.45. The Idea is that a lighter, high Speed Projectile will tranfer it's energy much more quickly and cause a larger Hydrostatic Shock than a slower moving 7.62 of the same Case Length, and the Tumble of a Rearwardly Weight Biased would cause even more Damage. The 7,62s had better Overall Penetration and Follow Through but that wasn't of Interest when Fighting Koreans, Vietnamese and later Somalis. 

 

It also has less felt Recoil since the Projectile spends far less time in the Barrel, and is easier to hold on Target than a 7.62x39 or any other .30 intermediate. There is a Reason why small Game is normally hunted with light, Super-High Speed (ca.1600 fps) Rounds and offer the most humane Kill. 

Give .22LR a Bigger Case and more Poweder and Presto, that's your Anti-Brown-People Round. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...