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Dive Bombing in the Ju 87


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#1 Wulf

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 07:14

I see people flying the Ju 87 on WOL but as yet I don't believe I've seen more than one instance where it's been used in anything approaching a vertical dive.  Is there a reason for this?  The norm appears to be to use it in much the same way that you'd deliver bombs with a 190 i.e. following a shallow dive. 


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#2 =11=herne

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 09:35

I think  max dive is about 70 degrees. on the ju 87 canopy you can see some angle indicators which you are supposed to check while in the dive, you can see how steep your dive is depending on which line is parallel with the horizon 


Edited by herne6210, 17 May 2017 - 09:36.

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#3 III/JG53Frankyboy

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 10:05

is the divebombing automaticsystem programmed yet ?

btw...........

 

IIRC is was not from the beginning :(


Edited by III/JG53Frankyboy, 17 May 2017 - 10:06.

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#4 Luftschiff

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 11:06

I normally go in completely or nearly vertical, depending on how well I manage to line up my target. At least with 500 Kg's and up, or when the target is very small. There are many reasons why you'd choose a different approach though, the most common is probably the presence of enemy aircraft in your flight path or on your six. Same goes for AAA, basically any big snafu in your flight plan when you're very near the target can make a shallow approach and speed gain preferable to a "proper" execution of the attack. If I carry many smaller bombs, I'll generally only drop the first one vertically, and targets like airfields I almost always hit from a shallow approach. Pros and cons, as with most things.


Edited by Luftschiff, 17 May 2017 - 11:07.

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#5 Yogiflight

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 13:48

If you attack in a shallow dive, you have to see, if you can use the airbrakes, or if you would get to slow, when AAA is there, and get an easy target for them.


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#6 Space_Ghost

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 13:55

is the divebombing automaticsystem programmed yet ?

btw...........

 

IIRC is was not from the beginning :(

 

No, the automatic recovery system isn't in place.


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#7 Wulf

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 01:12

Okay thanks.  Didn't realize the auto-pullout feature hadn't been implemented yet. 


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#8 InProgress

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 19:25

Well then you should fly with me, I keep dive bombing 90° mostly, depends if directly above target, sometimes 80 or 70°. But I mostly dive, I really dislike seeing people flying big bombers and dropping bombs with 3s timer 20m high :|

But well, everyone fly as they wish. I also take siren even tho it does not do anything and even take 12km of speed.

Auto recovery is not here but devs said it will be.
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#9 III/JG2Gustav05

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 21:24

I remember that in some books it mention that lots Stuka pilots so not like to use auto recovery system. but I can not recall the reason.


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#10 Yogiflight

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 21:47

IIRC, the way they were flying away from the target was to predictable and therefore they were easy preys for the AAA.


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#11 hrafnkolbrandr

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 22:08

I go damn near vertical, otherwise my aim sucks.
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#12 ShamrockOneFive

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 22:58

It's been a bit since I was last on WOL but I have flown there a bit and I flew a couple of dive bombing sorties with the Ju87. To decent effect even.

 

Not everyone has done dive bombing and is effective with it so maybe they fly it in a shallow dive like other types instead? The auto pullout would be nice.


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#13 AeroAce

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 18:43

Lol I wonder if hitting auto level would have any chance at pulling you out of a dive. I will try later
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#14 =VOE=PangolinWranglin

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 19:31

I think it will only engage when you are near level. 


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#15 hrafnkolbrandr

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 00:23

Lol I wonder if hitting auto level would have any chance at pulling you out of a dive. I will try later


Video please!
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#16 Finkeren

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 12:59

Lol I wonder if hitting auto level would have any chance at pulling you out of a dive. I will try later


It will try, give up halfway and leave you to crash on your own.

I've tried.
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#17 Quax

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 15:15

I remember that in some books it mention that lots Stuka pilots so not like to use auto recovery system. but I can not recall the reason.



The good guys did trust themselfs more than the automatic. And they did go lower.
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#18 AeroAce

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 15:24

Video please!


SPLAT
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#19 InProgress

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 17:42

But auto recovery was made so pilots would not crash while lost conscious :| there is huge force on you when you dive and then pull up really hard.

"The Stuka's design included several innovative features, including automatic pull-up dive brakes under both wings to ensure that the aircraft recovered from its attack dive even if the pilot blacked out from the high g-forces."

Also I heard about accident when in 1939 poland because low visibility pilots dived and 13/14 stukas did not manage to pull up on time, 26 pilots died only 1 plane (2 men) survived that. So I guess auto recovery isnt that bad idea..
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#20 19//curiousGamblerr

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 17:55

In Mahlke's Memoirs of a Stuka Pilot he describes removing the automatic pull-up mechanism in France because it made the flight pattern too predictable for AA. This is after describing at least two instances where multiple aircraft crashed due to low cloud cover and not pulling up in time. This would indicate disabling the mechanism was a trade off deemed worth it for at least some pilots, despite the risk.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure the automatic pull-up engaged on bomb release. So, if a pilot held on to his bombs for too long, hoping to break through low cloud cover and/or getting careless about their altitude, engaging the system might not even save them.

 

Regardless, it would be a cool thing to have in game. Perhaps as a weapon mod so pilots could choose to bring it or not like real pilots apparently did. 


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#21 InProgress

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 18:18

I don't think it was about bomb release. I think in cliffs of dover you would auto recover after you reach XXm. Something you would set up before flight. Just like timer on bombs. Not sure if this is historical. But maybe both versions are. I would like it as additional protection, if I would be too low then it could pull me up even before I drop bombs. Bombs could kill me anyway if I would be too low, so I guess it would work great as additional protection since you don't really black out in game. At least never happend to me.
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#22 StG77_Kondor

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 18:21

In Mahlke's Memoirs of a Stuka Pilot he describes removing the automatic pull-up mechanism in France because it made the flight pattern too predictable for AA. This is after describing at least two instances where multiple aircraft crashed due to low cloud cover and not pulling up in time. This would indicate disabling the mechanism was a trade off deemed worth it for at least some pilots, despite the risk.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure the automatic pull-up engaged on bomb release. So, if a pilot held on to his bombs for too long, hoping to break through low cloud cover and/or getting careless about their altitude, engaging the system might not even save them.

 

Regardless, it would be a cool thing to have in game. Perhaps as a weapon mod so pilots could choose to bring it or not like real pilots apparently did. 

Personally, I'd rather the Devs give us a D-5 instead. 

The auto pull out feature was already well on the way out by the time of Stalingrad. 


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#23 InProgress

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 18:25

I asked in developers questions if we will get new versions of stuka. Would be nice to get some updates with stuka, it's not that popular in multiplayer.. maybe if it would get some new futures.
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#24 Wulf

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 21:47

In Mahlke's Memoirs of a Stuka Pilot he describes removing the automatic pull-up mechanism in France because it made the flight pattern too predictable for AA. This is after describing at least two instances where multiple aircraft crashed due to low cloud cover and not pulling up in time. This would indicate disabling the mechanism was a trade off deemed worth it for at least some pilots, despite the risk.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure the automatic pull-up engaged on bomb release. So, if a pilot held on to his bombs for too long, hoping to break through low cloud cover and/or getting careless about their altitude, engaging the system might not even save them.

 

Regardless, it would be a cool thing to have in game. Perhaps as a weapon mod so pilots could choose to bring it or not like real pilots apparently did. 

 

As far as I'm aware, the Stuka concept became obsolete from a Luftwaffe standpoint for two reasons.  Firstly, control of the airspace in the areas where the Ju 87s  were to operate was often beyond the Luftwaffe's resources. Secondly, following the Battle of France and the early campaigns in the Soviet Union, Allied anti-aircraft systems had developed to such an extent that dive bombing, in the true sense of the term, had become essentially suicidal.  In this regard one could say that Allied ground based anti-aircraft systems were now almost as good as their German counterparts.


Edited by Wulf, 23 May 2017 - 08:50.

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#25 216th_LuseKofte

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 21:57

I think  max dive is about 70 degrees

 

True , but it was one of few divebomber that actually could do 90 degree dive. Mostly because of the fixed landing gear together with the divebrakes bleeded the speed very effective and the construction was very robust.

I don't think it was about bomb release. I think in cliffs of dover you would auto recover after you reach XXm. Something you would set up before flight. Just like timer on bombs. Not sure if this is historical.
 

But vertical dive give a chance to miss on all angels, it was reccomended to have less than 90 degree dive. The automatic drop was usually set to 700 mtrs to be able to recover from such a dive. While in 70 degree dive you could push it to 500 mtrs. This feature is lacking in this game.

 

Shallow dive make you able to go closer, and can give a feeling of better accuracy. But you are terrible wounerable to flak this way. I prefer diving from 3 to 4000 meters and drop at 1500, witch give you 1500 meters to dive in speed way from flak 


Edited by 216th_LuseKofte, 22 May 2017 - 22:01.

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#26 InProgress

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 16:39

Uh today in single player that happened.. clouds were really low and when I saw ground I knew I won't bomb it had to pull up but did not make it :'( auto recovery I need youuu

With D5 I would also like to get bombs that can do siren sounds since using jericho trumpets only makes you way slower and it does not give you anything :/ would be nice if enemy on the ground would for example lose some aim if it's aaa gun or even stopped shooting after hearing sirens.

Edited by InProgress, 23 May 2017 - 20:12.

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