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bf 110 fragility & flamibility


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#41 19//curiousGamblerr

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 18:20

I'm not that type of engineer but I see two problems with the balsa wood reproduction idea.

First, aren't the 110 and pe2 wings made of different material? If they are, then reconstructions of both using the same material wouldn't be particularly helpful in determining relative strength.

Second, as far as the aluminum or whatever metal used for 110 wings, balsa would definitely have different properties in response to various types of forces (torsion, shearing, etc). So, a balsa recreation of a structure designed to be built with aluminum would likely have weakness not present in the real thing.

That said, if anyone ever builds a balsa recreation of any of these aircraft, I'm sure we'd all love to see it! Would be sick to put a few electric engines in a balsa 110 and try to fly it (likely destroying many hours of construction work on your first flight but still).
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#42 Tailwheelbrownbear

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 04:32

I'm not that type of engineer but I see two problems with the balsa wood reproduction idea.

First, aren't the 110 and pe2 wings made of different material? If they are, then reconstructions of both using the same material wouldn't be particularly helpful in determining relative strength.

Second, as far as the aluminum or whatever metal used for 110 wings, balsa would definitely have different properties in response to various types of forces (torsion, shearing, etc). So, a balsa recreation of a structure designed to be built with aluminum would likely have weakness not present in the real thing.

That said, if anyone ever builds a balsa recreation of any of these aircraft, I'm sure we'd all love to see it! Would be sick to put a few electric engines in a balsa 110 and try to fly it (likely destroying many hours of construction work on your first flight but still).

I was thinking the same thing. Plus the manner in which different components are attached together would also make a difference. It would probably be too vague and non representative an experiment to give anything that could be applied to the DM.  It would be fun to try though... :-)


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#43 Tailwheelbrownbear

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 02:45

Is there any way a DM update ie specific to the 110 wouldn't get incorporated in a version update? (I doubt that but have to ask)

I just did another ground attack and the light AA once again light up my left engine, and shot my right wing completely off, right to the wing root.


Edited by Tailwheelbrownbear, 13 July 2017 - 02:47.

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#44 ShamrockOneFive

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 04:41

Is there any way a DM update ie specific to the 110 wouldn't get incorporated in a version update? (I doubt that but have to ask)

I just did another ground attack and the light AA once again light up my left engine, and shot my right wing completely off, right to the wing root.

 

Question: Bf110E-2 or G-2? If the E-2 did you have the armor plate option on?


Edited by ShamrockOneFive, 13 July 2017 - 04:41.

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#45 I./ZG1_Martijnvdm

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 07:37

Is there any way a DM update ie specific to the 110 wouldn't get incorporated in a version update? (I doubt that but have to ask)

I just did another ground attack and the light AA once again light up my left engine, and shot my right wing completely off, right to the wing root.

 

Are you sure it is the light AA that hits you. MP servers usually also use the the heavier 37 mm guns. There are almost always hit kills. Which is fine i think. The other gun is the 25 mm AA gun. I can usually sustain quiet some hit's from those.

 

Grt M


Edited by I./ZG1_Martijnvdm, 13 July 2017 - 07:43.

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#46 ShamrockOneFive

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 13:08

I just came back from four ground attack missions in the single player using the Bf110E-2. I got sprayed with light machine gun fire (from a Maxim gun on a truck), hit hard by a MiG-3 with ShKAS nose guns and UBS nose gun, and hit again by an I-16's ShKAS machine guns. The fourth time out I didn't get hit at all.

 

Of those times I crashed once after and that was because that MiG-3 sprayed both engines, the oil coolers, and fuel tanks. I still had some fuel when the second engine gave out from lack of oil but it wasn't much. I took the armor for engines and other aircraft components each time. 

 

They made some changes to the Bf110 damage model a few patches back. I probably would have shed a wing in previous patches but the more recent upgrades seems to have done the trick from what I can tell. If you get a 37mm shell in any aircraft its probably game over. A direct hit from one of those has essentially knocked me out of the sky no matter what I was flying. I did get hit by a 37mm in an IL-2 and flew it home but with significant damage. The Bf110 is bigger and easier to hit and probably ends up absorbing more of the energy than the IL-2 I was flying did - not to mention the IL-2's engine is encased in armor and the Bf110s armor (when equipped) is only downward facing.


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#47 2./JG51_Fenris_Wolf

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 16:09

The Bf-110 seemed always very resilient when shot from the dead six / dead front. As soon as the shooter gets a steep angle however, the wings will snap of under fire. If you turn out of the way too early on somebody diving on you, you're not counting on any resilience this plane has anymore.
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#48 I./ZG1_Panzerbar

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 18:16

Well.... 37mm. Returned back.

110.jpg


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#49 ShamrockOneFive

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 18:19

Well.... 37mm. Returned back.

attachicon.gif110.jpg

 

Lucky! Look at the damage there... geeze....


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#50 Tailwheelbrownbear

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 19:08

Ya, that never happens to me... shot from behind, engine knocked out... maybe I'm just unlucky. Is there a way to re-install BOS? Maybe my version is wonked???


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#51 I./ZG1_Panzerbar

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 20:57

Lucky! Look at the damage there... geeze....

 

Another one lucky landing.

Bf110_S9+IC.jpg Bf110_S9+IC_2.jpg


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#52 [ASOR]Pharoah

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 22:36

5 times i've been shot out of the sky with the BF110....each time i lose a wing straight off the bat. Funny that. 


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#53 ShamrockOneFive

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 23:12

Ya, that never happens to me... shot from behind, engine knocked out... maybe I'm just unlucky. Is there a way to re-install BOS? Maybe my version is wonked???

 

Doubtful that a reinstall is going to change something like that. If it did then you'd have issues in multiplayer with your version not coinciding with the server version.

 

You still haven't indicated if in the situations you're describing that you were flying the E-2 or G-2 and if the E-2 then what extra armor was fitted if any.


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#54 Tailwheelbrownbear

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 04:17

Another one lucky landing.

attachicon.gifBf110_S9+IC.jpgattachicon.gifBf110_S9+IC_2.jpg

omg if I were the tail gunner I'd have pooped my pants.


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#55 Tailwheelbrownbear

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 04:34

Doubtful that a reinstall is going to change something like that. If it did then you'd have issues in multiplayer with your version not coinciding with the server version.

 

You still haven't indicated if in the situations you're describing that you were flying the E-2 or G-2 and if the E-2 then what extra armor was fitted if any.

E2, and I cant remember if I had armour installed (Can I order wing armour ?) I did some trials in single mission, flying 500 m over small and large AA (donno exact gun size) and survivability is much higher. If the MP maps are setting the AA to ultra-uber, well... But still, always getting the wing blown off withinin 30 seconds of showing up... seriously? It makes me change my tactic, first take in a 109 to take out AA then the 110 to beat up the bigger targets. Ironic, I read the 110 was considered a decent ground assault plane yet I need to take in a 109 to clear the path for it. I'll do some more trials on MP and take better notes. Reality vs game play, donno, but having more varied levels of damage would be more interesting. As opposed to automatically 'ping' - wings off !!


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#56 ShamrockOneFive

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 13:20

You know I'd be interested in taking a step back and wondering why you were getting hit in 30 seconds every time in your test. Regardless of outcome.

 

I'd pay close attention to what armor was installed. The E-2 has pilot/gunner armored glass modifications (mostly meant for bomber intercept) and armor for engines and pilot underneath the aircraft for dealing with small arms fire. Regardless, small arms shouldn't take you out in a single hit but a heavy flak gun might.

 

Then again... if you get hit in 30 seconds regardless of attack altitude/evasive pattern then maybe something else is going on.

 

I gotta tell you... for a large heavy fighter like the Bf110 I find it plenty survivable and capable of both flying good evasive patterns and of sustaining damage from attacking fighters and small-arms/light flak batteries.


Edited by ShamrockOneFive, 14 July 2017 - 13:22.

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#57 Voidhunger

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 13:28

Another one lucky landing.
Bf110_S9+IC.jpg Bf110_S9+IC_2.jpg


Thanks for these pics! These two pics are 37mm too?
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#58 Y-29.Layin_Scunion

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 15:49

E2, and I cant remember if I had armour installed (Can I order wing armour ?) I did some trials in single mission, flying 500 m over small and large AA (donno exact gun size) and survivability is much higher. If the MP maps are setting the AA to ultra-uber, well... But still, always getting the wing blown off withinin 30 seconds of showing up... seriously? It makes me change my tactic, first take in a 109 to take out AA then the 110 to beat up the bigger targets. Ironic, I read the 110 was considered a decent ground assault plane yet I need to take in a 109 to clear the path for it. I'll do some more trials on MP and take better notes. Reality vs game play, donno, but having more varied levels of damage would be more interesting. As opposed to automatically 'ping' - wings off !!


Yes, the 110 was a well-rounded ground assault aircraft...when it worked in groups.

If I take any attack aircraft out by itself on a fresh objective, it's very likely to get the same result with AAA slapping me out of the sky. This isn't some sort of "110 only" thing.
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#59 Tailwheelbrownbear

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 03:15

Yes, the 110 was a well-rounded ground assault aircraft...when it worked in groups.

If I take any attack aircraft out by itself on a fresh objective, it's very likely to get the same result with AAA slapping me out of the sky. This isn't some sort of "110 only" thing.

For sure and I'm not expecting the thing to be a tank. I've been recording and keeping track and the wings snap off a lot. I've had other aircraft pop a wing but I guess I've just been 'lucky' with the 110. I've  noticed other wing damage as well. Transitioning from the pe2 to the 110, I noticed a big difference.


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#60 I./ZG1_Panzerbar

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 06:50

Fw190 rules!

CRF190_1944.jpg


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#61 -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 15:48

This Yak has seen better days

 

cac3.png


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#62 I./ZG1_Panzerbar

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 15:50

Yak has very different structure of fuselage. It has steel frame, covered with fabric. 

German fighters had monocoque construction.


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#63 -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 16:05

Yep, that part of the fuselage is similar to the Hurricane. But the damage is interesting, you can see the fabric is gone ofc but the main frame is still there (at least what we can see in the picture), maybe it was a fire? Or it was ripped off by mgs?


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#64 Swing

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 22:51

Me-109_worldwartwo.filminspector.com_3.j


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#65 I./ZG1_Panzerbar

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 23:30

Well... What is the caliber of French/Dutch medium-caliber AAA in 1940? 37mm, huh? To bring this bird back to base, it need to have balls made of steel.

 

Bf110_224 23_5_40 Dunkirchen.jpg s-l1600 (13).jpg s-l1600 (15).jpg


Edited by I./ZG1_Panzerbar, 17 July 2017 - 23:32.

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#66 Tailwheelbrownbear

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 23:43

I watched some other people getting their 110 shot down on YouTube, and my results are typical.


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#67 Alexmarine28

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 06:17

Well... What is the caliber of French/Dutch medium-caliber AAA in 1940? 37mm, huh? To bring this bird back to base, it need to have balls made of steel.

Bf110_224 23_5_40 Dunkirchen.jpg s-l1600 (13).jpg s-l1600 (15).jpg


At least for the French they used 20mm and 25mm guns for medium AA. Can't say for the Belgian
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#68 a_radek

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 10:41

Out of curiosity, have you guys watched a ground attack by players online from the perspective of the ground forces/targets? It dosen't look like a sudden lightning strike from above. More often than not, a big slow and lone il2 floating by really close to deliver it's bombs. And then it starts it's go around at what looks like well within regular mg-range.

I always felt cool diving on a column, and often frustrated over getting whacked by aa. But watching the same attack from the other side of things I'm surprised aa misses that much.

During my military service I was the gunner in a light Swedish tank/apc. It had a 40mm bofors cannon that although equipped with modern electronics and automation, was basically the same cannon bofors has been manufacturing as an AA cannon since the 40's. I can honestly say that even with iron sights and without all the aid of modern electronics helping you with wind speed, air temperature and so on. It would not be very difficult to hit a rather large ground attack aircraft as low and slow as we fly them.
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#69 216th_Jordan

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:44

Fw190 rules!
CRF190_1944.jpg


Isnt that a HS129?
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#70 I./ZG1_Panzerbar

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:00

Its a Fw190.


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#71 Yogiflight

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:12

The pilot's head is at the rear end of the canopy, which is missing. You can see the corner, where the cockpit ends and the shape line of the canopy floates into the fuselage.


Edited by Yogiflight, 24 July 2017 - 12:12.

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#72 Brano

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 13:22

Pe-2 and Bf-110 were both all-metal aircrafts.

PE-2 had 2 main spars wing construction

BF-110 had 1 main spar wing construction

The difference inbetween both constructions has been readjusted in some of the previous updates. The overall strenght has been a bit on the lower side with 1 spar wings. Still it is less tough then what Pe-2 has. On top of it,Pe-2 was a dive bomber with quite heavy weight comparing to its size due to strenghtened construction to withstand higher G-loads. Although this was not the result of dive bombing request for this aircraft. It was an inherited feature from original ВИ-100 prototype of high altitude interceptor.


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#73 JtD

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 13:39

Single spar wings were a Messerschmitt patented design, which distributed loads that were typically taken by the second spar over the rest of the wing, mostly the nose section. This allowed for a reduced weight while maintaining the same strength. If there's a difference between structural strength of aircraft, it's not related to the number of wing spars. Having one frame strengthened for dive bombing and one not, is a much better reason for different structural strength.

Regarding the picture of the Yak above - the damage to the fuselage section could have been caused by something as small as a single 20mm hit. Shrapnel tears holes into the fabric, and the wind just tears the fabric off. These aircraft were flown at high speeds, and fabric sometimes even failed without being damaged. In theory it's even possible that the shrapnel punching holes into the fuselage came from the same hit that damaged the elevator.

Edited by JtD, 24 July 2017 - 13:39.

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#74 Brano

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 16:07

Single spar wings were a Messerschmitt patented design, which distributed loads that were typically taken by the second spar over the rest of the wing, mostly the nose section. This allowed for a reduced weight while maintaining the same strength. If there's a difference between structural strength of aircraft, it's not related to the number of wing spars. Having one frame strengthened for dive bombing and one not, is a much better reason for different structural strength.

Correct. I pointed out all-metal construction and type of wing construction for some people here asking if there was a difference inbetween both aircrafts.

Construction of the wing and fuselage of Pe-2 was ment to be tough and resist high loads right from the beginning. It was not the result of the types designation change from high altitude interceptor to dive bomber as one would think. Its hard to believe that Petlyakov (working first under Tupolev) did design this aircraft in the most unfortunate circumstances. Being arrested by NKVD and working on it while imprisoned (same as Tupolev) in infamous construction bureau CKB-29 supervised by the NKVD itself.


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