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New Bullet Strike Timing and Location Improvements (Video)


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wow! Quite some hard mineshell hits, looks actually fairly close to what we got :)

I just went and shot down several Yaks, and never did one catch fire or lose the tail after a single hit.

 

I think I blew up the Yak ammo once, would that be possible?

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I just went and shot down several Yaks, and never did one catch fire or lose the tail after a single hit.

 

I think I blew up the Yak ammo once, would that be possible?

Yes, absolutely possible. I'm with you that there are places where the approximation is not perfect. Seing the 2 hits on the tail were devastating in the gif. But from the looks of the damages to the other parts of the plane it looked fine to me. (Apart from only looking at the damage in this one gif) I just think that control surfaces in general propably got lost a little more often in reality.

 

I'm not saying nothing is wrong, just that a lot seems very right regarding DM in general. And there are important threads about the issues already.

 

Sorry I even pushed it further in this direction.

 

 

PS: Seeing the puffs in the gif the mineshell explosions we got in Il-2 seem a bit overdone :P

Edited by 216th_Jordan
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Let me comment on the Lagg footage since some are hung up on it. I purposely did not focus my fire on it too accurately. For most of the video I was throwing lots of rounds, some machine gun and cannon, but not aiming too good. Myself and an AI were chasing it for a long time. Some of the hits are mine and some the AI. The reason I included it in the video is because this one did, by random chance, take several hits in non-critical areas and fly on for a while helping to demonstrate the damage model and bullet strike fix. This is what I wanted. Once it slowed down a bit after taking wing damage I focused my fire on center mass and in two bursts first damaged the engine and then then took its wing off. Many other Laggs were harmed in making this video and met faster fates. Our damage model takes many many factors into account. There are times when a plane may seem to last longer than you think it should and sometimes planes are destroyed very quickly. This is how it was in real life and its the randomness that makes it interesting. If you want one shot one kill predicable arcade style action please go play Space Invaders on your Atari. We do everything we can to make a believable experience in Sturmovik, but its still a computer simulation and there are limits to what we can do in a reasonable time frame. We're just happy we solved a long standing visual issue.

 

Jason

Thanks for all of the hard work Jason. I appreciate all that you and the team do. Even as a Luftie I haven't had any significant complaints since EA, so many years ago.

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Here's some 4K snaps from the 190 wing hit I made last night. Just gorgeous. I only wish I put on a 4K skin on the 190. Just an awesome sequence.

 

attachicon.gif190_Wing_Hit_0.jpg

 

attachicon.gif190_Wing_Hit_1.jpg

 

attachicon.gif190_Wing_Hit_2.jpg

 

 

Jason

 

Looks spectacular Jason! The second shot in particular looks pretty good with the effects going there just as the wing rips off. Probably looks better on your 4K monitor than my 1080p one but still!

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If you want one shot one kill predicable arcade style action please go play Space Invaders on your Atari.

If we are here to spend money on IL-2 Sturmovik Saga is also because we started playing Space Invaders or Ace with Atari or Commodore 64 ... Wonderful Games!

However none wants a sim one shoot one kill, even though we often see a sim one shoot one kill. But surely it is a hit of luck.

But the important thing is to have these effects very soon.

Thx for your job!

 

S! and sorry for my English

Edited by ITAF_Cymao
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I was going to point that out... I know a single 37mm hit should theoretically be enough for a fighter... but if that 190 was shooting 6 20mm just look how how many bullets that lagg was able to tank. If it were a 109 being the vitctim it would lose the entire tail section in the first shot... 

 

Its reaching to a point where the durability of the russian planes are becoming a running gag between our circle of friends, together with the Pe2 jokes. :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

 

This game has IL2 in the title for a reason. All soviet planes are armoured like the famous flying tank.

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That's ok, the fact that you never fly VVS no matter how stacked the sides are is a running gag between the rest of us.

 

It's probably a good those of confirmation bias, to be honest. The other day I was fighting what must have been a Vibranium 109, which took 20mm hits after hits and kept on flying. It was impressive. :)

 

It happens both sides, essentially. Sometimes Yaks will withstand a withering hail of fire, another it gets shot down by a single machine gun burst (which is also something that happened to me).

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It's probably a good those of confirmation bias, to be honest. The other day I was fighting what must have been a Vibranium 109, which took 20mm hits after hits and kept on flying. It was impressive. :)

 

It happens both sides, essentially. Sometimes Yaks will withstand a withering hail of fire, another it gets shot down by a single machine gun burst (which is also something that happened to me).

 

Oh its definitely confirmation bias with some of these guys. But don't try and tell them that... :)

 

The great thing about the damage model is that it is somewhat variable. Its not a health meter that goes down but a complex series of systems that break under fire. Its what gives such diversity to the experience and makes it real. There's always bugs and the simulation isn't exactly reality but damn its good and what Jason is showing us indicates that it'll look even a bit better with this improvement. Can't wait to see it!

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  • 1CGS

I shot down I dunno...like 15 Laggs before I got this one that lasted a bit longer. In my excitement to show the visuals In forgot about all the angry folks out there who would hone in on one thing they don't like. I could make all planes exactly the same and all weapons exactly the same and people would still find issues. Someday I may just do that to prove a point. 

 

Point in fact, the German 20mm has a smaller charge that the Soviet round with fewer fragments, but higher velocity (if I remember the facts as explained to me, I could be wrong) according to our research. How the hell to model such things without doing some elaborate, expensive real-world test is beyond me. We have relied on whatever historical data we could find. Everything we do is an approximation since it is, after all a computer simulation.

 

We're not biased in the slightest. German planes were not as awesome as some would think and Soviet planes were not as bad as some think. The absolute truth is lost to history and if real WWII pilots knew back we'd be having these arguments over a video game far in the future, they'd tell us we're idiots.  

 

Jason

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Point in fact, the German 20mm has a smaller charge

 

 

at least that is wrong. German 20mm Mineshell has 20g of explosive. Russian 20mm has 6g. i actually made a lenghty post about that here on the forum in the past

Edited by 6./ZG26_Asgar
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at least that is wrong. German 20mm Mineshell has 20g of explosive. Russian 20mm has 6g. i actually made a lenghty post about that here on the forum in the past

 

That may be what he means by "fewer fragments but higher velocity". The mineshell packed more explosives in the casing, but there was consequently less casing to fragment. The explosive effect was stronger, the fragments had greater energy, but less fragments.

 

Or not, he may have just been referring to the normal 20mm shell, not the mineshell.

 

THAT BEING SAID, the central point of his post is still very much valid. :)

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  • 1CGS

 

 

at least that is wrong. German 20mm Mineshell has 20g of explosive. Russian 20mm has 6g. i actually made a lenghty post about that here on the forum in the past

 

Like I said I could be wrong. There is some kind of difference, I'm not an ammo expert. I don't remember which. What I do know we tried to model a slight difference based on whatever the facts are. What I know for sure is we have no bias in our modeling.

 

Jason

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German 20mm Mineshell has 20g of explosive.

Has the mineshell not a delay fuse? So it will not explode at contact with the target. It  explode in the outer skin of the plane. The most impact comes from the explosion itself.

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Like I said I could be wrong. There is some kind of difference, I'm not an ammo expert. I don't remember which. What I do know we tried to model a slight difference based on whatever the facts are. What I know for sure is we have no bias in our modeling.

 

Jason

no need to get defensive. i didn't say anything about bias and never claimed that. my personal opinion formed after my own tests is that AP is too effective against aircraft and since German ammo belts (according to Han) contain more HE than the Russian belts that gives them a disadvantage. Generally speaking time to kill is longer for Germans on Russians than the other way around. No claim of bias, just observation after playing the game since Beta. This can have a million different reasons and i don't claim that bias is one of them. Game development is hard.

Edited by 6./ZG26_Asgar
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That kind of tail surface damage isn't very common in BoS, for example in Jason's video, that LaGG gets hit in the tail a couple of times, the elevator gets some holes but nothing rips off for example.
 

 

I remember it was a common thing in good old Il-2, wasn't it ? But was that realistic, I don't know, maybe those elevator surfaces are likely to be damaged until destroyed (not to talk about cabling/command system) more than likely to be ripped off...

 

Thank you Jason and whole team of course for this cosmetic improvement ! Like others said, was quite an immersion killer and so even if not a phisical change, still is a very nice change.

 

How can you be that irrespectful in regards to Space Invaders ??! Was a great space aircraft sim. At that time..  :gamer:

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Like I said I could be wrong. There is some kind of difference, I'm not an ammo expert. I don't remember which. What I do know we tried to model a slight difference based on whatever the facts are. What I know for sure is we have no bias in our modeling.

 

Jason

 

I'm convinced there is no bias there but the constant will  to modelize this sim closer to reality. On another side there is no anger or intention to criticize blindly. Most of players here are complete aficionados and they all love this sim. So don't take it wrong.  
 
Development is a recurring discipline, iterative and repetitive process to get closer and closer to reality and you proved, release after release, that you are constantly taking attention to player's feedback. Thank you for that.
 
Of course, no one wants to come back to the CFS single bubble of damage since we have now the most realistic sim ever ! But once again there is no smoke without fire, may be the effect has been pushed a "little" too far, and truth must be somewhere "in between" ... flying almost every day I'm convinced there is room to mitigate and modified slightly the balance, of course keeping your research into account (wood vs metal structure and type of ammo, ...). No technical challenge here. Not a claim, just a suggestion. 
 
As I said in my post above this game is on a great improvement path since DX11, 2.009 ... and this visual tweak of the bullets strike will greatly improve the immersion factor.
 
Thank you again for giving us more and more at each release. :salute:     
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The only real advantage the Germans have in firepower is ammunition. I'm not sure if that is modelled though. The mineshell with large explosive charge is delayed to explode inside the aircraft after penetration. This would cause a lot of damage.

The Russian weapons are higher performing in every other way. They have really fast firing rates on top of higher velocity projectiles with most of them mounted in the nose. It means the Russians had the advantage in almost every other aspect.

Higher velocity projectiles coupled with nose mounting means very little arc or convergence in bullet path which makes aiming much easier for poor marksmen. You can aim at almost the same point and hit the target. I set mine for 1km and leave it.

With German, American, and British using lower velocity wing mounted weapons with a lower firing rate, it takes a lot of shooting practice to be able to hit anything. Lower velocity means a big curved arc bullet path and wing mounting means convergence. This means you have to know exactly what spot to aim at because it changes depending on your distance from the target. The only time you aim at the aircraft is at your set convergence. Otherwise you have to aim at the air above, below, or to the side.

 

Basically in Russian planes you can just put the cross hairs on target and have a good chance of scoring a hit where in German planes you need a lot of work and skill to get rounds on target. When those rounds get on target the Russian ammo has higher kinetic energy but the German mineshells should have more explosive power.

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Great work Jason and team.  Another very good step forward in improving the immersive feeling of this sim.

 

 

And for those who chose to make this a damage model derail, please look very closely at the video.   Look at all the times Jason missed.  Then read what he said about how basically hard it was to NOT shoot the LaGG down too fast.  The trigger on your joy stick is not an instant win button, no matter which side you fly for, and it shouldn't be.  Aerial gunnery is one of the hardest skills to master in a sim, and in real life.   The ratio of aces to pilots that never got a kill is tiny for the aces.  It shouldn't be any different here, and by the sound of it, it isn't.  Reality is a harsh mistress.  Be sure.

 

Thanks again Jason for the work so far.

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.... If you want one shot one kill predicable arcade style action please go play Space Invaders on your Atari. We do everything we can to make a believable experience in Sturmovik, but its still a computer simulation and there are limits to what we can do in a reasonable time frame. We're just happy we solved a long standing visual issue.

 

Jason

 

 

Here's some 4K snaps from the 190 wing hit I made last night. Just gorgeous. I only wish I put on a 4K skin on the 190. Just an awesome sequence.

 

attachicon.gif190_Wing_Hit_0.jpg

 

attachicon.gif190_Wing_Hit_1.jpg

 

attachicon.gif190_Wing_Hit_2.jpg

 

 

Jason

this Fw-190 shotdown is not a "one shoot one kill" arcade style, for you? 

 

 

I shot down I dunno...like 15 Laggs before I got this one that lasted a bit longer. In my excitement to show the visuals In forgot about all the angry folks out there who would hone in on one thing they don't like. I could make all planes exactly the same and all weapons exactly the same and people would still find issues. Someday I may just do that to prove a point. 

 

Point in fact, the German 20mm has a smaller charge that the Soviet round with fewer fragments, but higher velocity (if I remember the facts as explained to me, I could be wrong) according to our research. How the hell to model such things without doing some elaborate, expensive real-world test is beyond me. We have relied on whatever historical data we could find. Everything we do is an approximation since it is, after all a computer simulation.

 

We're not biased in the slightest. German planes were not as awesome as some would think and Soviet planes were not as bad as some think. The absolute truth is lost to history and if real WWII pilots knew back we'd be having these arguments over a video game far in the future, they'd tell us we're idiots.  

 

Jason

 

 

Like I said I could be wrong. There is some kind of difference, I'm not an ammo expert. I don't remember which. What I do know we tried to model a slight difference based on whatever the facts are. What I know for sure is we have no bias in our modeling.

 

Jason

you must be know that Nudelman-Suranov NS 37mm cannon was an unsuccessful anti-tank weapon, with low rate of  fire, and a powerful recoil effect who cause the lose of the aiming.The possibility of shotdown a fighter with this anti-tank weapon, is very remote.Unlike the MG-151 /20mm who was a succesfull air-to-air weapon. 

In other hand, with are very gratefull for your comment about this issues, and we hope thay you will try to fix in the future damage models.

Edited by III/JG52_Otto_-I-
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The .50 BMG was an anti-tank cartridge that went on to do very well in the air to air role. I see no reason why a 3.7cm cannon projectile couldn't cause catastrophic damage to a small aircraft.

 

I realise most people don't have any military experience with heavy weapons but some of the thinking here is laughable.

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  • 1CGS

The 37mm hot was a lucky shot after I threw a hundred rounds at the Lagg. All of this was done to just show the new bullets effects timing. Remind me never to show new stuff. 

 

Jason

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The 37mm hot was a lucky shot after I threw a hundred rounds at the Lagg. All of this was done to just show the new bullets effects timing. Remind me never to show new stuff. 

 

Jason

Please show more Jason. Complains are natural in this business, but they should not discourage you from doing this. I find the improvements amazing. 

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this Fw-190 shotdown is not a "one shoot one kill" arcade style, for you? 

 

 

 

 

you must be know that Nudelman-Suranov NS 37mm cannon was an unsuccessful anti-tank weapon, with low rate of  fire, and a powerful recoil effect who cause the lose of the aiming.The possibility of shotdown a fighter with this anti-tank weapon, is very remote.Unlike the MG-151 /20mm who was a succesfull air-to-air weapon. 

In other hand, with are very gratefull for your comment about this issues, and we hope thay you will try to fix in the future damage models.

 

If you get hit by a 37mm cannon shell its over for every fighter used in WW2. That was one reason why the german 37mm Flak was so successful one hit was mostly enough for a kill.

That the NS 37 cannon was an unsuccessful weapon in aircombat does not change the fact that if one scores a hit the effects on the target are devastating. Thats also the reason why the german army tryed at the end of the war to replace the 20mm Flak with 3cm MK103 cannons.

 

Picture is a HE 111 wing hit by a 3cm MK101 Mine-shell from 100m thats a about the same damage as a normal 37mm HE shell does

post-385-0-11023200-1493645740_thumb.jpg

 

If you want to know more here is are some good informations:

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.com/archiv/Dokumente/web/new%20site/frames2/Dokumente.htm

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