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Game version 2.009 discussion: Open VR support

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I'm sure there are a lot of pilots like me who play with a stick and nothing else (no headtrack, hotas or pedals), and one or two with a mouse who are still following this thread with interest:

 

If it's good for the sim, it's ultimately good for us; this is beyond doubt, but right now it's like spectating something momentous while we wait for half a decade or more for VR to become financially accessible...

 

For those of us with several other other Il-2 players to support, what is the cheapest viable VR solution which the sim supports?

 

I understand that world class sims don't build themselves in a vacuum, which is why I voted for the best one with cold currency, but my finances and goodwill end well before VR headset developers get their cut. I have a family of gamers and simmers to support. What's the path of least resistance to the VR experience?

 

JR :salute:

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I was very impressed last night. I was flying in poor weather and could see occasional rain drops but when I opened the canopy there was a rainstorm going on outside. The landscape was being pummelled by vast sheets of very realistic VR rainfall. Quite amazing!

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I'm sure there are a lot of pilots like me who play with a stick and nothing else (no headtrack, hotas or pedals), and one or two with a mouse who are still following this thread with interest:

 

If it's good for the sim, it's ultimately good for us; this is beyond doubt, but right now it's like spectating something momentous while we wait for half a decade or more for VR to become financially accessible...

 

For those of us with several other other Il-2 players to support, what is the cheapest viable VR solution which the sim supports?

 

I understand that world class sims don't build themselves in a vacuum, which is why I voted for the best one with cold currency, but my finances and goodwill end well before VR headset developers get their cut. I have a family of gamers and simmers to support. What's the path of least resistance to the VR experience?

 

JR :salute:

JR,

 

You may want to consider as the first option, a used discounted Rift/Vive as VR is not for everyone.  Also, a used Oculus DK2 can still work and will give you 80-90% of the fidelity of the CV1 for a sitting experience without room scale.

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JR, You may want to consider as the first option, a used discounted Rift/Vive as VR is not for everyone. Also, a used Oculus DK2 can still work and will give you 80-90% of the fidelity of the CV1 for a sitting experience without room scale.

 

Thanks for the helpful reply Toxin - I think a pre-owned DK2 might be the way to go, certainly from a pricing point of view;

 

I was was wondering if there was anything along the lines of some lower-tech DIY solution - "google cardboard super-deluxe" etc.

 

The Il-2 series has pushed along most of my tech upgrades over the last 16 or so years; and it has been the benchmark for whether or not a junk-built PC counts as a gaming rig; but I fear this leap in tech might be a stretch too far. Once I start to multiply the cost by the number of people I support to play I end up with a price tag that's out of reach.

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One big thing that I am having problems with in regards to buying an oculus rift for this game (I want to sooo bad). Is that I won't be able to see my keyboard, or two throttle quadrants I use for controlling my plane. There are so many controls for parts of the airplanes that I can't map them all to my stick. So I was wondering if there would be some way we could use a web cam as a 'keyboard viewer' and then show that on the cockpit seat. I know that might be 'weird' but it would be a practical compromise. esp if we could adjust the transparency of the webcam image. Any ideas or possibility this could be incorporated into the game? the webcam would not need to be high fps, just enough to know where the keys/controllers are.

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One big thing that I am having problems with in regards to buying an oculus rift for this game (I want to sooo bad). Is that I won't be able to see my keyboard, or two throttle quadrants I use for controlling my plane. There are so many controls for parts of the airplanes that I can't map them all to my stick. So I was wondering if there would be some way we could use a web cam as a 'keyboard viewer' and then show that on the cockpit seat. I know that might be 'weird' but it would be a practical compromise. esp if we could adjust the transparency of the webcam image. Any ideas or possibility this could be incorporated into the game? the webcam would not need to be high fps, just enough to know where the keys/controllers are.

 

There is a nose gap. 

 

I like the nose gap.

 

You will like the nose gap.

 

A lot can be seen/done through the nose gap.

 

You will be able to see your keyboard through the nose gap.

 

The "VR-means-I-am-blind" thing is a luddite myth. My center-mounted stick poses faaaaaaar more an obstacle to keyboard access than the VR headset ever does.

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Pimax 4k is only $299 US dollars brand new.  No 6dof but can be upgraged later.  Has better resolution than Vive or Oculus and only needs to run at 60fps to be fluid.


One big thing that I am having problems with in regards to buying an oculus rift for this game (I want to sooo bad). Is that I won't be able to see my keyboard, or two throttle quadrants I use for controlling my plane. There are so many controls for parts of the airplanes that I can't map them all to my stick. So I was wondering if there would be some way we could use a web cam as a 'keyboard viewer' and then show that on the cockpit seat. I know that might be 'weird' but it would be a practical compromise. esp if we could adjust the transparency of the webcam image. Any ideas or possibility this could be incorporated into the game? the webcam would not need to be high fps, just enough to know where the keys/controllers are.

There is an oculus app that you can make it picture in picture like on a television...well I am sure you could set up a webcam or phone to video stream your keyboard and you could see what you are doing that way?

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One big thing that I am having problems with in regards to buying an oculus rift for this game (I want to sooo bad). Is that I won't be able to see my keyboard, or two throttle quadrants I use for controlling my plane. There are so many controls for parts of the airplanes that I can't map them all to my stick. So I was wondering if there would be some way we could use a web cam as a 'keyboard viewer' and then show that on the cockpit seat. I know that might be 'weird' but it would be a practical compromise. esp if we could adjust the transparency of the webcam image. Any ideas or possibility this could be incorporated into the game? the webcam would not need to be high fps, just enough to know where the keys/controllers are.

Muscle memory kicks in pretty good you would be surprised. I can reach and hit all my controls without needing to see them. Not fumbling either. I can reach and connect with correct control all the time without issue. Now typing on a keyboard, sure more of a challenge, but you would be surprised how quickly you adapt.

 

 

Pimax 4k is only $299 US dollars brand new.  No 6dof but can be upgraged later.  Has better resolution than Vive or Oculus and only needs to run at 60fps to be fluid.

There is an oculus app that you can make it picture in picture like on a television...well I am sure you could set up a webcam or phone to video stream your keyboard and you could see what you are doing that way?

 

I am thinking of grabbing one as well. I have a Rift and Vive but also got in on the Nolo kickstarter and think that will convert Pimax to 6dof. Still issues though for some with it from what I read. We shall see.

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I am thinking of grabbing one as well. I have a Rift and Vive but also got in on the Nolo kickstarter and think that will convert Pimax to 6dof. Still issues though for some with it from what I read. We shall see.

 

Yes there are issues with the in game horizontal resolution that is doubled from Rift or Vive, as for the OSVR HDK2

I am trying to find a way to spoof IL 2, could you please send the following files, that are in the steam install "logs" directory, after an il2 use with a Vive or a Rift ?

  • vrserver.txt
  • vrclient_il-2.txt

in order to allow me to identify what I can do...

Edited by lefuneste

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Dont buy used Oculus or Vive. If they dont work you wasted a lot of mony! Also dont buy a Dk2 its no longer supported and most games will give you trouble when you try to use it.

 

If you want to go as cheap as possible than buy a Oculus CV1. You will be able to upgrade it later with the touch controller and it will work with all new VR expiriences that come in the next years. Pimax is also a Option but it can give you trouble with some games since most developers test only Vive and Oculus CV1 with there games

Dont buy used Oculus or Vive. If they dont work you wasted a lot of mony! Also dont buy a Dk2 its no longer supported and most games will give you trouble when you try to use it.

 

If you want to go as cheap as possible than buy a Oculus CV1. You will be able to upgrade it later with the touch controller and it will work with all new VR expiriences that come in the next years. Pimax is also a Option but it can give you trouble with some games since most developers test only Vive and Oculus CV1 with there games

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For those of us with several other other Il-2 players to support, what is the cheapest viable VR solution which the sim supports?

 

 

JR :salute:

GearVR with Samsung S7 plus Riftcat PC software or other VR capable phone.

Great if you have good phone already plus you can use trackIR if you like...

 

Resolution and ppi is a bit higher compared to rift or vive, fov is smaller 110 vs 101, it's wireless,it's 60hz (but it's fluid) do not have 6dof but you can use trackir even do use both together 2 from phone plus 4 (lean, up/down) from trackir.

 

I should mention that You can play all Steam VR ready games ...

Edited by 307_Tomcat

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The pilot body in DCS brings much immersion and the Level of details in the cockpits are just excellent, but outside it looks a little outdated... but you have a bigger visibility distance and with the Normandy map and the new shader and lightning we will see a whole new game ... maybe superior to IL2 ... but both are on the same level and just great

Edited by Intrud3r

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I'll second the DK2 recommendation. Qualitywise it is not far off a CV1 for a seated experience (which is what BoS/BoM is), and it works completely fine with openVR/SteamVR (which is what BoS/BOM and many other games and applications use). A CV1 or (currently) a Vive cost about the same as an expensive mobile phone, probably even slightly cheaper. The Vive is *currently* sold with a GTX1070 for $999, which seems like much, but then if you factor in how much the 1070 costs, and the fact that you WILL need a good GPU to run VR in any comfortable fashion then it's actually pretty cheap.

As for the PiMax : the higher resolution is nice, but the 60Hz should be a deterrent. High refresh rate is a must for VR, as motion sickness is highly linked to low one. Also : higher resolution means higher GPU requirements, ao I'm definitely not sold on that one.

Source: I own a Vive, a DK2, and tried the CV1. I used to own an OSVR1, but returned it

 

Also : I am quite certain that once you tried a simulator in VR you'll have serious problems going back to "flat". It might not be as good for competitive dogfights due to the lower resolution and FoV, but the immersion makes up for everything.

Oh .. and OVRDrop + a webcam might be a solution for the "not seeing Keyboard/controls" problem. I never tried that though, so it's just a thought.

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I'll second the DK2 recommendation. Qualitywise it is not far off a CV1 for a seated experience (which is what BoS/BoM is), and it works completely fine with openVR/SteamVR (which is what BoS/BOM and many other games and applications use). A CV1 or (currently) a Vive cost about the same as an expensive mobile phone, probably even slightly cheaper. The Vive is *currently* sold with a GTX1070 for $999, which seems like much, but then if you factor in how much the 1070 costs, and the fact that you WILL need a good GPU to run VR in any comfortable fashion then it's actually pretty cheap.

As for the PiMax : the higher resolution is nice, but the 60Hz should be a deterrent. High refresh rate is a must for VR, as motion sickness is highly linked to low one. Also : higher resolution means higher GPU requirements, ao I'm definitely not sold on that one.

 

Source: I own a Vive, a DK2, and tried the CV1. I used to own an OSVR1, but returned it

 

Also : I am quite certain that once you tried a simulator in VR you'll have serious problems going back to "flat". It might not be as good for competitive dogfights due to the lower resolution and FoV, but the immersion makes up for everything.

 

Oh .. and OVRDrop + a webcam might be a solution for the "not seeing Keyboard/controls" problem. I never tried that though, so it's just a thought.

60 hz in VR is no issue at all that low persistent devices are great. No motion sickness at all.

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Also : I am quite certain that once you tried a simulator in VR you'll have serious problems going back to "flat". It might not be as good for competitive dogfights due to the lower resolution and FoV, but the immersion makes up for everything.

 

I must be weird or something, because I still play on flat screen after getting Rift :biggrin: . I will probably play BoX both ways, VR and flat, depends on what I am doing. I just can`t get over the poor image quality of the current VR headsets. There is much to improve but low resolution is the worst drawback by far. BoX VR implementation is absolutely best there is but it can`t overcome the flaws of the hardware.

 

I have been considering getting rid of Rift and buy Pimax4k, just for it`s higher resolution. I think 60Hz refresh rate would be just fine for me. 

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Thank you sir !  The second link provided the right info to make it work!! Was'nt too interested in installing some third party overlay from the first link.

 

I wish Steam/Vive would give an option to disable that....but then again maybe they dont want to make it too easy beacuase they could get sued from some idiot who physically steps outside that boundary and trips over some furniture and hurts them-self?

Edited by vracan

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JR,

 

You may want to consider as the first option, a used discounted Rift/Vive as VR is not for everyone.  Also, a used Oculus DK2 can still work and will give you 80-90% of the fidelity of the CV1 for a sitting experience without room scale.

Yes this is what I am using (DK2) and works fine. I did not get the CV1 because I don't find the improvement over the DK2 worth the price. I am waiting for the CV2. In the meantime I am still having great time with the DK2. I paid 300$ for the DK2.

DK2 works great in IL2, Elite dangerous, and warthunder and all of the oculus demos I've tried so far, so don't worry about oculus saying it is no longer supported it DOES work with no extra hassles!... for how long , that is another story! ; )

Edited by vracan

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Thank you sir !  The second link provided the right info to make it work!! Was'nt too interested in installing some third party overlay from the first link.

 

I wish Steam/Vive would give an option to disable that....but then again maybe they dont want to make it too easy beacuase they could get sued from some idiot who physically steps outside that boundary and trips over some furniture and hurts them-self?

 

They do but its a little bit hidden and you need handcontroler or gamepad to do it.

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One big thing that I am having problems with in regards to buying an oculus rift for this game (I want to sooo bad). Is that I won't be able to see my keyboard, or two throttle quadrants I use for controlling my plane. There are so many controls for parts of the airplanes that I can't map them all to my stick. So I was wondering if there would be some way we could use a web cam as a 'keyboard viewer' and then show that on the cockpit seat. I know that might be 'weird' but it would be a practical compromise. esp if we could adjust the transparency of the webcam image. Any ideas or possibility this could be incorporated into the game? the webcam would not need to be high fps, just enough to know where the keys/controllers are.

 

Not sure if it would work with IL2, but here is someone doing something very similar in Elite Dangerous.

 

 

I think now days its a paid steam app.

 

http://store.steampowered.com/app/586210

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Has anyone noticed all 109 variants have much more of a tendency drift to left during flight than before the patch? I couldn't find anything with regards to that in the patch notes but maybe I am only imagening this.

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Anyone else has jerkiness with having clouds enabled?  Cloud draw outline especially has some erratic behaviour. I'm using GTX1080. CPu usage peaks at 70% and grphx usage peaks at 60%, so not sure if related to my machine

Edited by vracan

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ASW and ATW from oculus seems to kill my framerate with the steam vr integration

 

When ASW is auto (ctrl num4) the Frames goes down to 45 with heavy distortion from the prop as soon as I get close to some other planes

 

With only ATW on (ctrl num2) it's slightly better - most of the time around 60 fps

 

And with everything off (ctrl num1) it goes up to the 80s , even with enemy nearby

 

 

The HUD affects framerate only when ASW and ATW is off , when it's on it stays on 45 with hud on or off.

 

Maybe there is a problem between oculus and steamvr?!

Edited by Intrud3r

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ASW and ATW from oculus seems to kill my framerate with the steam vr integration

 

When ASW is auto (ctrl num4) the Frames goes down to 45 with heavy distortion from the prop as soon as I get close to some other planes

 

With only ATW on (ctrl num2) it's slightly better - most of the time around 60 fps

 

And with everything off (ctrl num1) it goes up to the 80s , even with enemy nearby

 

 

The HUD affects framerate only when ASW and ATW is off , when it's on it stays on 45 with hud on or off.

 

Maybe there is a problem between oculus and steamvr?!

 

No,

 

The reason you drop down to 45 fps, and not say 60, or 50, is that is how ASW is defined.

https://developer.oculus.com/blog/asynchronous-spacewarp/

 

It intentionally drops your frames to 45 fps ( even though in actually you may be 65 fps), and then interpolates the frames to give you an end result effective 90 fps for displaying in the HMD.

 

And the HUD does affect frame rate big time when it is on, you will reach 90 fps ( hence ASW turns off) much sooner with it off, than with it on...

 

ASW does a really good job of allowing the Rift to run on lower spec machines, at the cost of some occasional graphic anomalies.

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I just wanted to throw it out there that it's great seeing so many new accounts posting in an update thread.

 

Exciting times ahead. :cool:

Tired of the old faces? :P

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Just wanted to drop in to thank the devs (first post - hello everyone).

 

I backed the beta and then wrote the game off as a complete loss when I read VR support wouldn't be coming as I simply can't play sims on a screen anymore, so this patch is highly appreciated.

 

Great implementation, although as someone mentioned a few pages back, the canopy appears to be a little small whilst the lower parts of the cockpit appear too big, especially the pedals. The latter is quite apparent when comparing it to the Dora in DCS as well as comparing it to the pedals IRL (I have Slaws Einheitspedal replica). I'll check if better aligning my seating position with the in-game position alleviates the issue.

 

Anyway - it's not too distracting when I'm actually flying and I'm sure I'll spend a couple of hundred hours with the game now, so thanks again :)

Edited by Baron_vonDoom

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No,

 

The reason you drop down to 45 fps, and not say 60, or 50, is that is how ASW is defined.

https://developer.oculus.com/blog/asynchronous-spacewarp/

 

It intentionally drops your frames to 45 fps ( even though in actually you may be 65 fps), and then interpolates the frames to give you an end result effective 90 fps for displaying in the HMD.

 

And the HUD does affect frame rate big time when it is on, you will reach 90 fps ( hence ASW turns off) much sooner with it off, than with it on...

 

ASW does a really good job of allowing the Rift to run on lower spec machines, at the cost of some occasional graphic anomalies.

That is correct and it works like that in other games like DCS (ASW Auto -> everything lower than 50 and the distortion begins), but here , I can maintain fluid 80 to 90 fps when ASW and atw is off - but when I turn it on to auto , the distortion begins instantly even when I have had really high fps before...

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As far as the case for TrackIR support with VR I understand the arguments for and against but with where the resolution is on HMDs right now you have to be noticeably close to identify planes which is a huge disadvantage.

 

I have a Pimax and the tracking is quite bad only head rotation is tracked with a gyro that has the usually yaw drift issues that is seen in cardboard/cell phone based VR. It is a huge step down from playing on monitor with 6DOF.

 

There have been various comments as well on the difficulty to check 6 with 1:1 head tracking. I have already tweaked my back in a heated dog fight doing this and I am sure there are people in worse shape than me playing so that argument is legitimate. As a stop gap I have started to look to the right or left, recenter the headset and then look the opposite direction to get enough rotation without craning. Sort of like a poor mans snap view 45-90*.  

 

But allowing TrackIR is critical in offering an AAA VR experience to people who may not have the means to have a RIft/Vive right now. The more accessible it is to all potential customers the better! There are will definitely be a huge group of people that have never heard of IL2 but will end up buying it solely on VR support (as many have done with Elite Dangerous)

 

As far as multiplayer goes there should be an option to allow or deny HMDs. An only VR server would be great to make a level playing field, while a No VR only server would allow those that are worried about potential advantages to play knowing they aren't being "cheated." In the end lets all remember it is a sim/game and not real life and death!

 

But 100% allow TrackIR support for us Pimax users!    

Edited by LonnyEnds

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Just sell the imitation and buy a proper vr. Dev has no time.

  • Upvote 1

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Just sell the imitation and buy a proper vr. Dev has no time.

pimax looks better and with nolo will BE better than oculus or vive at a cheaper price...maybe try before you give advice or at least be informed about the products.

Also swivel chair is a god sent for checking 6

  • Upvote 1

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There is a nose gap

 

I my case (Rift) if you set the device correctly there is not nose gap. I suppose it depends on the face physiognomy, but no nose gap at all.

 

I was already using all the keys in the Hotas before VR, so It has been an easy transition.

Stick, throtle and pedals are exactly in the position they are in the plane, it increases immersion.

IMHO, a nose gap kills immersion since it connects you to real world

Edited by chiliwili69
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IMHO, a nose gap kills immersion since it connects you to real world

 

Look down.

 

Do you see your nose?

 

I bet you did not till I asked the question.

 

I mean, if it was just optics + physics, any time you are using your eyes you could and should see the nose. 

 

But you do not.

 

Even though your nose is always in your visual field, you do not really "see" it unless you think about it to notice it. And if you are not actively thinking about it, you do not notice it. Your brain "tunes" it out of the visual field by about, oh, year 1 of life.

 

Same thing with the nose gap. Your brain tunes it out, and until and unless you choose to focus on it or through it, you really do not notice it.

 

At least, I don't. 

 

So, I like the nose gap.

 

Zero disruption of immersion, and a huge practical benefit for functionality ...

Edited by Bearfoot
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I too never see the nose gap unless i specifically look for it. By brain just "blacks" the area out. That said, I rarely use it :)

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I my case (Rift) if you set the device correctly there is not nose gap. I suppose it depends on the face physiognomy, but no nose gap at all.

 

I was already using all the keys in the Hotas before VR, so It has been an easy transition.

Stick, throtle and pedals are exactly in the position they are in the plane, it increases immersion.

IMHO, a nose gap kills immersion since it connects you to real world

No Nose gap for me either. If I check for it with the Rift switched off in a bright room, there is just a tiny sliver of light visible in the nose area. No way enough to spoil immersion and certainly no hope of seeing a keyboard.

As Chiliwili says..must be down to face shape.

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I too never see the nose gap unless i specifically look for it. By brain just "blacks" the area out. That said, I rarely use it :)

 

Yep pretty much same here.

It does come in handy at times, but unless I tilt my head back and intentionally peer down into it with my eyes, I never notice it.

  • Upvote 1

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I do have a nosegap ... I think ... but I generally end up playing in a rather dark room and I use an extra non-lit keyboard for flight sims. I just put a couple of those (see below) on a few keys so that I can get "oriented" fast, so basically just extra bumps similar to the one on the J key)

41IirQP7ACL._SL1000_.jpg

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GrendelsDad, i am sorry.

Well technically you owe my Pimax an apology but I will pass the message along

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please, fix stuttering. before this update "Delta" the sim, it's fine. after the last update 2.009d, turn head with trackir stuttering very strange ..  in all settings..

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