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Welcome to Discussion About VR and VR Controllers


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#1 Jason_Williams

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 19:59

In here you can discuss our Virtual Reality implementation and how it works with leading VR devices on the market such as the HTC Vive and Oculus Rift.

 

Keep it civil and polite.

 

Jason


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#2 dburne

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 20:36

Great to see this new subforum for VR!

 

I look forward to sharing my experiences with it.


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#3 ram0506

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 20:40

Folks, be aware, that Steam VR is needed to run Il2 in VR. I mention this, because I was asking myself for the VR-Beta-test why I couldn`t get IL2 working with my Rift. I didn´t use Steam VR before. For the users of the Vive this shouldn`t be an issue.


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#4 dburne

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 20:42

Folks, be aware, that Steam VR is needed to run Il2 in VR. I mention this, because I was asking myself for the VR-Beta-test why I couldn`t get IL2 working with my Rift. I didn´t use Steam VR before. For the users of the Vive this shouldn`t be an issue.

 

Really? That would be surprising and not so good for me...


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#5 ram0506

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 20:45

Really? That would be surprising and not so good for me...

Well, I don`t know if there is some other possibility of using a kind of open VR software. But with only the Oculus software running I couldn`t get Il2 started on my device. I think the devs will give further informations on that when VR is implemented.

But actually installing and using the Steam VR software is not too complicated.


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#6 dburne

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 20:49

Well, I don`t know if there is some other possibility of using a kind of open VR software. But with only the Oculus software running I couldn`t get Il2 started on my device.

 

Did you put a checkmark in the "Unknown Sources" box in the Oculus Home settings tab ( under general)?

It allows apps that have not been reviewed by Oculus to run on the Rift.

I know I had to do that for DCS to run on it.


Edited by dburne, 18 March 2017 - 20:49.

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#7 ram0506

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 20:53

Yes, as far as I remember I did check that box (I´m also running DCS).


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#8 dburne

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 20:58

Yes, as far as I remember I did check that box (I´m also running DCS).

 

Hmm ok, guess we will find out soon enough. I am hoping not anyway, but if I have to I guess I will...

 

Edit - are  you saying the game itself has to be run through Steam, or just the VR application?


Edited by dburne, 18 March 2017 - 21:02.

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#9 ram0506

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 21:17

It`s just the free available Steam VR application that is needed. No need to have IL2 running on Steam. ;)


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#10 dburne

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 00:20

It`s just the free available Steam VR application that is needed. No need to have IL2 running on Steam. ;)

 

Good to know, thanks.


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#11 Bearfoot

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 06:18

Hope the devs can confirm either way. It would be important to know for folks still not committed to either Oculus or Vive ... and, either way, disappointing for Oculus owners because of the performance hit taken via the Steam VR layer, if true.


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#12 ram0506

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 08:56

Yes, would be great to get rid of that Steam VR and just use the Oculus run time for the Rift users. Can`t tell about a performance hit of Steam VR, but I don`t like the circle that marks your position in VR when you look down to the ground. Every time you look to some lower parts of the cockpit you will see this circle which is a bit of an immersion killer for me. I haven`t found a way to turn that circle off in the Steam settings.


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#13 dburne

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 09:39

Yes, would be great to get rid of that Steam VR and just use the Oculus run time for the Rift users. Can`t tell about a performance hit of Steam VR, but I don`t like the circle that marks your position in VR when you look down to the ground. Every time you look to some lower parts of the cockpit you will see this circle which is a bit of an immersion killer for me. I haven`t found a way to turn that circle off in the Steam settings.

 

Well that certainly does not sound too good...

 

Man I have just never been a fan of using Steam anyway.


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#14 ram0506

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 10:13

Man I have just never been a fan of using Steam anyway.

Same here. But let`s wait what the devs say about that.


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#15 chiliwili69

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 10:30

Devs have opted for using OpenVR to support the Rift and the Vive. OpenVR is the Valve´s SDK used by the Vive through SteamVR, but it is open to support any other VR device like the Rift. OpenVR is an open VR standard, but own by a single company (Valve).

So, If you can only afford one implementation, the best is to use OpenVR, so Vive and Rift users are supported. But, there will be a "small" (I hope) penalty for Rift users since the OpenVR may not use the latest tech from the native Oculus SDK (ASW, ATW, etc).

 

Other VR standards owned by a comittee of VR companies (not by a single company) are being proposed, but it will take a while until it consolidates. So the decission to use OpenVR has been the most practical for the time being if we want VR now.

 

So, I am afraid that you will need SteamVR app to configure the OpenVR settings (like supersampling, etc,):

http://www.roadtovr....ttings-sharpen/


Edited by chiliwili69, 19 March 2017 - 10:31.

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#16 ram0506

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 10:36

Thanks, chiliwili69, I haven`t dealt much with other possibilities of using VR than the Oculus run time.

For the Rift users it is still possible to use ASW and higher pixel density by running the Oculus debug tool when playing Il2. So no penalties for Rift users here. ;)


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#17 dburne

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 10:52

Devs have opted for using OpenVR to support the Rift and the Vive. OpenVR is the Valve´s SDK used by the Vive through SteamVR, but it is open to support any other VR device like the Rift. OpenVR is an open VR standard, but own by a single company (Valve).

So, If you can only afford one implementation, the best is to use OpenVR, so Vive and Rift users are supported. But, there will be a "small" (I hope) penalty for Rift users since the OpenVR may not use the latest tech from the native Oculus SDK (ASW, ATW, etc).

 

Other VR standards owned by a comittee of VR companies (not by a single company) are being proposed, but it will take a while until it consolidates. So the decission to use OpenVR has been the most practical for the time being if we want VR now.

 

So, I am afraid that you will need SteamVR app to configure the OpenVR settings (like supersampling, etc,):

http://www.roadtovr....ttings-sharpen/

 

Well I can't say I am not a little disappointed...

I really like the Oculus software, and it does a very good job with ASW as well which certainly helps when things get a little busy FPS wise. It especially allows the Rift to run better on lower spec PC's that the Vive, or at least that is what I hear.  I hope the SteamVR app has something similar that deals with that to at least help keep performance up. It sounds like from comments that have been made though that Jason has shared, overall VR performance is pretty good.

 

It will be interesting to hear of performance from folks using the Rift versus the Vive.

I can understand the logic , just getting this sim into VR and the simpler way of supporting only one SDK, especially with a small team that is very busy on the next installment of the BoX series.

 

With all the new devices that apparently are in the pipeline, it would seem there will be a need for some type of standard for them all. Developers are not going to be able to have their software support many different types of SDK's for VR  I wouldn't think.


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#18 dburne

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 10:58

Thanks, chiliwili69, I haven`t dealt much with other possibilities of using VR than the Oculus run time.

For the Rift users it is still possible to use ASW and higher pixel density by running the Oculus debug tool when playing Il2. So no penalties for Rift users here. ;)

 

Fwiw,

 

Over on the Oculus Forms ( General section), there is a thread that is still on first page, where a guy ( ApollyonVR) developed an Oculus Tray Tool. It is a very handy app that allows one to put some settings in rather than go through the debug tool. Very user friendly and can be set to run at Windows startup. One very neat feature is the ability to set a Pixel Density per application/game. No need to go into debug tool and continually change for what you are running. Can also set ASW to enabled or disabled as well, plus some other features.


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#19 ram0506

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 11:10

Thanks, found it.


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#20 216th_Jordan

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 11:24

Well, I personally don't think Steam VR is so bad. It obviously makes developing VR for the devs a lot easier and can be used quite well.


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#21 dburne

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 11:50

Thanks, found it.

 

:good: 

 

You are most welcome, it really is a very handy tool.


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#22 dburne

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 12:08

Well, I personally don't think Steam VR is so bad. It obviously makes developing VR for the devs a lot easier and can be used quite well.

 

Yeah that is certainly quite understandable and due to that not surprising.

 

I seem to be seeing some mixed results from users over on the Oculus forums as to performance in the Rift using SteamVR versus the Oculus SDK. I am sure a lot of that is how the game is optimized to run on it.

I look forward to seeing how it does on my rig. It will be interesting to see what graphics level I have to run to get acceptable performance.  Based on Jason's latest DD, they are pleased with the overall VR experience so I am sure it must be pretty good.


Edited by dburne, 19 March 2017 - 12:09.

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#23 =TBAS=Tripwire

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 12:12

Well, I personally don't think Steam VR is so bad. It obviously makes developing VR for the devs a lot easier and can be used quite well.

 

Agreed,

 

I might be biased due to owning a Vive, but I think they really made the right choice going for Steam VR first. I don't hear any complaints about it at all in other multiplayer games when playing with/against Rift users.

 

Eagerly awaiting the release of VR for IL2, wonder if I can drag myself back away from Onward.

I'm expecting I will need a hardware upgrade to be able to enjoy this title in VR. Lets see.


Edited by Tripwire, 19 March 2017 - 12:13.

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#24 dburne

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 12:27

Eagerly awaiting the release of VR for IL2, wonder if I can drag myself back away from Onward.

I'm expecting I will need a hardware upgrade to be able to enjoy this title in VR. Lets see.

 

You and me both, one thing about it is I will be wringing the heck out of it when VR is released! Man I have got to get in there and set up my controls again, sounds like we are probably getting close and would like to go ahead and get that done. ( Getting away from using TARGET).

 

You might consider upgrading to a 1080 card whenever you can, I have heard it helps VR fairly well. I can't give a comparison as I did not have the Rift when I had a 970 card.

But am sure you will be fine with your current rig in the meantime...

 

Once I am dragged kicking and screaming into SteamVR I will have to give Onward a try, read some good things about it and being SteamVR only I had not gotten it yet LOL.


Edited by dburne, 19 March 2017 - 12:28.

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#25 =TBAS=Tripwire

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 13:12

For those of you worried about key commands and VR, its a legitimate concern but really only for communication via chat.

 

The HTC Vive when positioned well has little to no view out of the bottom of the mask past your nose. For some key combinations, if you can touch type, you wont find it too hard to find the right keys blind. For more frequently used key combinations, find external software to increase the number of "shift" keys on your joystick/HOTAS to get the rest of the frequently used functions onto your hands.

 

You can double tap the button on the headset to get the wire-frame view turned on, and that will help you locate your beer or your keyboard, but reading the keys isn't really feasible.

Pass-through camera display is by default linked to your controller so unless its nearby that's kind of awkward too.

 

You will need to rely on your voice for communicating, that is probably a good thing anyway. Typing blind can take a bit of time to get right for most.


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#26 1./KG4_Blackwolf

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 15:35

I found out you have to have SteamVR running before starting IL2 on accident. Just like Track IR.

 

For me finding the keyboard isn't hard if I need to hit a key I just lift the Vive up a little and look under.

I haven't tried the pass through camera yet. I heard it will kill frame rates. I need to go test that.


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#27 Bearfoot

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 15:42

I think controlling things in a cockpit, clickable or not, is always a challenge, but a non-clickable cockpit requiring keyboard input is definitely going to be require some thought!

 

I've adopted the following solution: a touchpad/mini-keyboard velcroed to a kneeboard strapped to my left thigh.

 

https://www.amazon.c...=A1JQNKX8H5YU3Y

 

https://www.amazon.c... touchpad jelly

 

Works REALLY, REALLY, REALLY well!!

 

Only thing I had to do is to glue some mini-studs on some keys to be able to identify them without looking down.

 

P.S. A clickable cockpit improves things, but comes with its own problems. There are two philosophies to using a clickable cockpit with this: (a) bind HOTAS to mouse-clicks and scrolls; and (b) use a mouse for clicks and scroll. In DCS, flying modern a/c, the former exacts a heavy price because it takes away some precious, precious, precious HOTAS keys. The latter requires special accommodations for, e.g. left hand use. The former is also tricky as you have to bring the required switch into the middle of your FOV to manipulate, which can be next to impossible depending on layout (e.g. really close next to your thigh etc.)


One more thing to add: VoiceAttack!!

 

In combination with the mini-keyboard I added above, VoiceAttack is the other ergonomic savior. Especially for the F1-F10 communications menu in DCS, but also for those things that you just need keys for even in a clickable cockpit (e.g., switching crew positions, map screen, etc.), or the really, really, really annoying/fiddling manipulation (setting radio frequencies). Best thing is that with careful thought and scripting, not only is there no break in immersion, immersion can actually be enhanced 200%!


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#28 300_Mentos

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 16:11

There is any chance for play using a Samsung gear VR ?


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#29 HagarTheHorrible

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 20:01

There is any chance for play using a Samsung gear VR ?


I doubt that very much, watching vid's of Il2 BoX, yes, actually playing, no.
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#30 1./KG4EKat

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 20:43

Hey guys -  I just installed an extra Vive link box and some lighthouse stands with my desk-based flight simming workstation in anxious anticipation of VR. I normally use my Vive on another machine with a 980ti card for room scale.  My flight sim set-up only has an older 780 ti card, so I know it will have serious limits. I will likely move to a 1080 card when I know VR is going to be functional enough to justify the new hardware (maybe a 1080 ti?). Having already accepted the limitations of mainstream VR headsets (i.e. screen door effect, 110 degree FOV), I'm hoping at least having a powerful card with the ability to max-out settings including super sampling will help some. If 1C/777 can implement VR well enough, the experience should be a another game changer. Just having the feeling of 3D depth will add to the experience. Also, I like to fly bombers and I'm curious about what the limitations will be for being in a bomber with VR. We had some hints in the last developer update, but I'm hoping bombsight and gunner sights are implemented in a usable manner. Cheers!


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#31 307_Tomcat

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 00:44

There is any chance for play using a Samsung gear VR ?

Yes using riftcat I suppose. It's compatible with OpenVR and steam.
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#32 Irgendjemand

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:46

@ram0506: I asked this in the announcement thread. Sadly it wasnt answered. Maybe you are able/allowed to answer.
Will there be some sort of VR zoom function that makes it easier to identify further away contacts that otherwise would be difficult/impossible to be identified due to the resolution of the VIVE/RIFT HMD?

 

Thanks a lot! Cant wait to get INTO the cockpit:)

 

Cheers


 

 

One more thing to add: VoiceAttack!!

 

THIS! If you dont have a HOTAS that offers enough buttons/switches this definately is the way to go.
I use it in Elite Dangerous an Star Citizen. Works flawless.


Edited by Irgendjemand, 20 March 2017 - 09:46.

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#33 dburne

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:50

@ram0506: I asked this in the announcement thread. Sadly it wasnt answered. Maybe you are able/allowed to answer.
Will there be some sort of VR zoom function that makes it easier to identify further away contacts that otherwise would be difficult/impossible to be identified due to the resolution of the VIVE/RIFT HMD?

 

 

I was wondering the same, hopefully there might be both a zoom and re-center VR capability.


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#34 dburne

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:29

Well this morning I did it.

 

Holding my nose :)  I installed SteamVR in anticipation of the upcoming VR support. So I guess I am ready to go. Now to get back in there and get the control mapping for BOS done...

 

Which reminds me -  I know it will not happen, at least for the foreseeable future with all they have on their plate, but would love to see:

Custom Graphic Settings returned( similar to what we had very early on in the initial Early Access of BOS). Especially in VR where striking a balance between quality and performance is essential.

 

Individual control mapping per plane. Similar to what ROF has.


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#35 Bearfoot

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 13:14

So, here is demonstration of the SEVERE performance hit taken by playing using the Steam VR mode:

 

   https://www.reddit.c...ormance_in_dcs/

 

Going to be quite a horde of disappointed OR users if BoX runs VR through Steam ....


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#36 coconut

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 13:25

So, here is demonstration of the SEVERE performance hit taken by playing using the Steam VR mode:

 

   https://www.reddit.c...ormance_in_dcs/

 

Going to be quite a horde of disappointed OR users if BoX runs VR through Steam ....

 

One reddit thread with 8 posts by one user with issues. Maybe a bit early to get disappointed.


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#37 dburne

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 13:28

So, here is demonstration of the SEVERE performance hit taken by playing using the Steam VR mode:

 

   https://www.reddit.c...ormance_in_dcs/

 

Going to be quite a horde of disappointed OR users if BoX runs VR through Steam ....

 

Yeah I saw that earlier this morning over on their forums, I am hoping that maybe it more of an isolated issue rather than a global thing for SteamVR users.

I would think if that were more common there would have been a lot more talk about it before now from Vive users running that game through Steam.

Hoping anyway...


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#38 Bearfoot

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 13:30

One reddit thread with 8 posts by one user with issues. Maybe a bit early to get disappointed.

 

It is a bit early to get disappointed, but more because we have not had any confirmation that Steam VR is required.

 

Fact is, it is neither news nor controversial nor stunning revelation that running Oculus through Steam VR has a performance hit. 

 

Furthermore, the user does not have "issues", but is reporting an analysis of performance that definitely indicates (and confirms standard knowledge) that there is a performance hit.


Yeah I saw that earlier this morning over on their forums, I am hoping that maybe it more of an isolated issue rather than a global thing for SteamVR users.

I would think if that were more common there would have been a lot more talk about it before now from Vive users running that game through Steam.

Hoping anyway...

The problem is not with Vive running on the Steam VR, but with Oculus VR running on the Steam VR. Vive has Steam VR has its native SDK. The problem is that Oculus' native SDK is not Steam. 


Edited by Bearfoot, 20 March 2017 - 13:31.

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#39 dburne

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 13:34


The problem is not with Vive running on the Steam VR, but with Oculus VR running on the Steam VR. Vive has Steam VR has its native SDK. The problem is that Oculus' native SDK is not Steam. 

 

Good point, I guess we shall see soon enough.


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Don
 
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#40 ram0506

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 15:34

@ram0506: I asked this in the announcement thread. Sadly it wasnt answered. Maybe you are able/allowed to answer.
Will there be some sort of VR zoom function that makes it easier to identify further away contacts that otherwise would be difficult/impossible to be identified due to the resolution of the VIVE/RIFT HMD?

 

Sorry, Irgendjemand, I hope for your understanding, but I`m not allowed to talk about details of the current state of VR in IL2. Hard for me, as I would love nothing better than talking the whole day about it. :biggrin:


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