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Do plane controls seem a little nervous?

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guys, why don't you do the test Overlank did and see if you have the same control response on your ailerons/tail surfaces?

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Well we will have to wait for the next testphase but it seems very well possible that there are input bugs that will cause (more) violent behavior of the plane. 

Filtering is not implemented right? maybe there is a way to test that with an external program enableing it again. (aka manipulating what BOS gets of flightstick input)

Edited by Jordan

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I just wanted to give my impressions since the last patch.  I am a real life pilot but I have also been a flightsimmer for a long time.  Currently, I am experiencing extreme elevator authority similar to what another poster described as "all or nothing" input.  I am using a CH Fighterstick and reach full elevator deflection with only about an inch of throw.  While slowly pulling back on the stick, I am able to watch my elevator rise slowly and suddenly snap to full deflection.  This causes huge problems while in the air as even basic turns are hard to achieve without going from a gentle bank to a full elevator induced spin with only the smallest back pressure on the stick.  I also oscillate while trying to get a firing solution on the enemy while trying to go from small corrections with the elevator to rapid, large corrections.

 

Your elevator going from slow deflection to a sudden snap to full deflection sounds like a control input issue, for sure.  When you are in the Controls config where you assign your inputs, you can click on the S-axis modification icon (at far right, as I recall) where you can then modify the control input to be either linear or some form of S curve.  But you can also see an animation showing a control surface move with your stick input.  Does THAT animation also jump suddenly to full deflection when you gradually move your stick?  Unless you have a severe S curve, that should not be happening.  Spiking inputs might be the cause of that also.  But I have not seen the sim respond in the manner you describe, with this sudden jumping to full deflection.  All my input curves are default, flat lines.  So it is one-to-one with my joystick movement and the simulated control surface movement.

 

The issue I see is that it is very easy to move the joystick a little, even when moving at high speeds, and those small inputs create unwanted oscillations.

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If you check the DCS boards there are some posts by Yo-Yo, ED's physics guru about stick travel from the neutral position to stall. He's reported recently that from NACA reports the stick travel from neutral to stall on the elevator in the Spit XI was 3/4" around 25mm. That's with a full length stick... translate that to a short throw stick and you're reduced to what, 10mm???? It seems the controls in these planes were/are very sensitive.

 

So what do you do, implement some sort of controller fudge or make it real. Both DCS and 777 seem to have gone for the make it real solution, we just have to get used to it or apply curves, but I really don't like curves so I just practice...

 

  :)    

 

 

 

Total joystick travel and aircraft response aren't necessarily  linked to sensitivity.  The steering on my bicycle only needs to be moved a very, very small proportion of the total possible to turn even quite sharp corners, but it is still very precise and extremely controllable and is in no way over-sensitive.  I imagine a finely balanced aircraft is very much the same.  That said if the handlebars were very very short it might become more difficult to control properly.  I'll try it tomorrow and give you a call back from my hospital bed if you're right. :wacko:

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If you check the DCS boards there are some posts by Yo-Yo, ED's physics guru about stick travel from the neutral position to stall. He's reported recently that from NACA reports the stick travel from neutral to stall on the elevator in the Spit XI was 3/4" around 25mm. That's with a full length stick... translate that to a short throw stick and you're reduced to what, 10mm???? It seems the controls in these planes were/are very sensitive.

 

So what do you do, implement some sort of controller fudge or make it real. Both DCS and 777 seem to have gone for the make it real solution, we just have to get used to it or apply curves, but I really don't like curves so I just practice...

 

Not wanting to ruffle anyone's feathers too much but I enjoy driving. I don't feel the experience of driving my modern VW around town qualifies me to speak authoritatively on the driving model of the GP Legends 1967 Lotus 49 :)    

 

 

I have no doubts that the sensitivity in the real fighters was high.  If I remember correctly some anecdote said the Spit would turn if you stuck your finger out the window.  The problem that I have is that my joystick is calibrated in Windows so that I am at 100% elevator up when my stick is pulled back fully.  In IL-2 I am reaching 100% elevator deflection with only 25% or so input.  There seems to be an input disconnect between this game and everything else.

 

 

Your elevator going from slow deflection to a sudden snap to full deflection sounds like a control input issue, for sure.  When you are in the Controls config where you assign your inputs, you can click on the S-axis modification icon (at far right, as I recall) where you can then modify the control input to be either linear or some form of S curve.  But you can also see an animation showing a control surface move with your stick input.  Does THAT animation also jump suddenly to full deflection when you gradually move your stick?  Unless you have a severe S curve, that should not be happening.  Spiking inputs might be the cause of that also.  But I have not seen the sim respond in the manner you describe, with this sudden jumping to full deflection.  All my input curves are default, flat lines.  So it is one-to-one with my joystick movement and the simulated control surface movement.

 

The issue I see is that it is very easy to move the joystick a little, even when moving at high speeds, and those small inputs create unwanted oscillations.

 

I tried a 1:1 axis as well as an S-curve in the control settings and it didn't really seem to make a difference during flying.  The little graph showed a difference between the input and output, but the movements were still very sudden.  Again, I am getting no spiking inputs in either Windows or CH calibration.

 

I spent so much time trying to get my controls right during this last round of testing that it never really occurred to me to try the Logitech stick I have as a backup.  I am waiting for the next test to see if hopefully things have changed and if not, I will try out another stick.

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If the problems are coming from the CH fighterstick you should better check that you dont have a problem with the stick itself.

I have had 3 and all had the same issue with the pots. And it was the same for two of my friends that also have CH sticks.

The problem is that it has some minimal dead play between the pot shaft and the plastic hole that rotates the shaft.

It is barely noticable, but it is there and makes small corrections very tricky.

You can easily test it out - use any program that shows you raw input values from the joystick (can also be the windows controler panel where you do stick calibration - just click raw values).

Pull the stick  to about 30% deflection, keep that position and than move back just a small fraction. If the stick has no issue, than the value should change immidiatly. However the CH stuff dosent and you have some empty movement (very small) before you change the value. Than if you move in the opposite direction there will be a small empty movement again.

This is however relativly easy to fix permanently - you open up the stick and stick some paper between the pot rod and the hole for the pot rod. This eliminates all empty space and dosent put any force on that pot that would damage it.

I have been using this since almost 3 years now without issue.

 

As for the general disscusion - I am not qualified to say anything on the behaviour as I never flew a real plane.

For me the explanation from Jordan a few posts above this one is the most telling one as it is based on physics. However bigest part of it is just a question if the moments of inertia are right or not - they are far from easy to calculate exactly correct for planes like these, however it should be relativly easy to calculate them about 80% correct - meaning the behaviour wouldnt change much even with the perfect number.

So partly I think it is also an input issue - short throw of joysticks compared to the real sticks makes it much more sensitive.

And the car comparison is very valid there - for instance this can be the most noticed between racing sims and real cars.

In racing sims nowdays you can set up how much of the steering angle on your wheel you can use - you can have the full left / right movement in 90 degrees or 900 degrees. So this are two different worlds and 90 degrees is undrivable - you simply dont have enough movement to do precise corrections - and you happily oscilate down the road even though the car acctually has no oscilation problems.

Change it up to 270 degrees and its much better. Go to 900 and it feels very slow and unprecise (because I am used to 270 degrees for racing sims since ages and that works best for me).

Same thing real cars - I have recent experiance in this issue. And it was my inputs that were the problem - I had an old M3 which had a normal steering rack with 3 turns of the wheel from full left to full right lock. So it was normal and I was very used to this.

Than I switched to a last generation M3 which has a much more direct steering rack with only 2 turns from full lock to full lock. And this makes it much more nervous and I need to be much more precise on the input. Its not really noticable when I drive normaly, however as soon as I start sliding I quickly overcorrect (at least I did before I got used to it). And by the overcorecting I acctually made some oscilation movement as I turned too much, corrected late and a lot...

One more thing - it could also well be that people setup their stick the wrong way - very slight curve at the start and than a big jump or deadzones or....

Deadzone at the end of the range will make the stick acctually more direct and will limmit your range.

It would be much better to make the curve in such a way to cut off the max inputs and keep the input curve linear.

 

BTW: I also am wobeling around in BoS, but not by much and I think of it as a thing of getting used to and being more precise with my stick / pedals (smaller inputs, smoother flying...). Also I will probably adjust my curves a bit, but noy by much.

And last observation - I find it quite interesting that so many real life pilots on these boards are not in agreement on this. And for me Quax is the benchmark as I know him and know what he flies... (hi mate BTW)

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I have no doubts that the sensitivity in the real fighters was high.  If I remember correctly some anecdote said the Spit would turn if you stuck your finger out the window.  The problem that I have is that my joystick is calibrated in Windows so that I am at 100% elevator up when my stick is pulled back fully.  In IL-2 I am reaching 100% elevator deflection with only 25% or so input.  There seems to be an input disconnect between this game and everything else.

 

 

 

I tried a 1:1 axis as well as an S-curve in the control settings and it didn't really seem to make a difference during flying.  The little graph showed a difference between the input and output, but the movements were still very sudden.  Again, I am getting no spiking inputs in either Windows or CH calibration.

 

I spent so much time trying to get my controls right during this last round of testing that it never really occurred to me to try the Logitech stick I have as a backup.  I am waiting for the next test to see if hopefully things have changed and if not, I will try out another stick.

 

In ROF the stick travel was set up to be as realistic as Petrovich could make it within the limits of the sim. With some of the ROF planes you had less forward elevator than back, but obviously with a spring stick you had 50% forward and 50% back, it wasn't that way in the sim though because that's not the way it was in the real aircraft. 

 

I suspect BOS control scheme is created in a similar way. Others can probably explain this stuff better :)

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In ROF the stick travel was set up to be as realistic as Petrovich could make it within the limits of the sim. With some of the ROF planes you had less forward elevator than back, but obviously with a spring stick you had 50% forward and 50% back, it wasn't that way in the sim though because that's not the way it was in the real aircraft. 

 

I suspect BOS control scheme is created in a similar way. Others can probably explain this stuff better :)

 

 

If the controls are going to stay this way, I'll just adjust to it like anything else.  I am looking forward to doing some more testing this weekend though

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Would be very nice to have the same kind of input configuration graph grid that we have in IL2 1946 where you really can adjust your joystick.

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I'm curious if people suffering from this sudden "elevator snap" or "on/off" problem used a backup of their old input files and then used that backup for the new early access.

 

I definately didn't experience this problem and the elevator was smooth all the way and i used a new input file.

 

Also if this happened to you, did it also happen when you were checking the axis input/output in the sensitivity options?

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Total joystick travel and aircraft response aren't necessarily  linked to sensitivity.  The steering on my bicycle only needs to be moved a very, very small proportion of the total possible to turn even quite sharp corners, but it is still very precise and extremely controllable and is in no way over-sensitive.  I imagine a finely balanced aircraft is very much the same.  That said if the handlebars were very very short it might become more difficult to control properly.  I'll try it tomorrow and give you a call back from my hospital bed if you're right. :wacko:

thats because you control your bycicle LEANING, try to drive a car with the steering wheel like a bycicle travel

 

reducing stick travel increases sensibility, reducing force response increases sensivility et viceversa

Edited by raaaid
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My 2 cents... 

Before the Dec 9th update, (last weekend), I was able to fly the Bf109 really well, keep the gun sights on the other Bf109's flying around very easily. 

This last update, I can't keep a smooth turn nor am I able to keep any aircraft in the gun sight. It's horrible to fly and rather annoying. 

Something has changed since the last update. 

Edited by SPRCrash_Nemesis

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For me nothing here was changed between these updates. Planes had springing noses since i tried these alpha.  They funny thing is that i tried ROF and planes don't behave these way - more like DCS or CLOD.  It is just simple test -  just make quick push or pull stick then neutral. In BOS plane nose will be springing back to initial position but in other sims it would stay more with new nose path just with some oscilation.  From my real life experience plane should change trajectory of flight if you make such stick movement -  don't  back to initial path of flight like we got in BOS. Thats why in BOS planes will fly like hanging on gums or springs.

Edited by Kwiatek

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For me nothing here was changed between these updates. Planes had springing noses since i tried these alpha.  They funny thing is that i tried ROF and planes don't behave these way - more like DCS or CLOD.  It is just simple test -  just make quick push or pull stick then neutral. In BOS plane nose will be springing back to initial position but in other sims it would stay more with new nose path just with some oscilation.  From my real life experience plane should change trajectory of flight if you make such stick movement -  don't  back to initial path of flight like we got in BOS. Thats why in BOS planes will fly like hanging on gums or springs.

 

Were you not using pitch trim....? 

 

I used pitch trim in the previous update to control the nose wanting to pull up or down. The aircraft flew straight as an arrow and responded to turns beautifully. I was very impressed with the 109 and actually found it very easy to fly and land. 

 

In the newest update, the aircraft does starts to behave exactly as you say in the above quote. It tries to return to its previous trajectory. Almost like some unseen force is pushing it back... Even with Pitch trim, the aircraft behaved rather nervously. 

 

I gave up after getting rather annoyed and haven't played since. I know it's alpha, so I have no argument here, but I do hope they take note of our "observations" and try amend them. 

 

 

Edited by SPRCrash_Nemesis

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some video footage of what you describe would be good.

 

Note that angle of attack is important in that matter, the attitude of the plane will go back to its flightpath once you move the stick to neutral. With an AoA of 10° your plane will snap those 10° back when you release the stick. Now a video would be great to do an analysis on that issue..

Edited by Jordan

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Technically I don't think the planes try to return to their previous trajectory, they are actually pulling lots of AoA and when you let go, the nose wants to get back to the direction the plane is actually going. It is probably accurate behavior if the ratio between the ability to pull nose up vs. the ability to change direction is accurate. 

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The nose of the 109 seemed to me to dance around so much that I could never get a good clear shot at the ai Lagg. I think the aircraft should feel heavier in the controls than it is now. Does anybody agree? In the older IL2 sims the ac were more steady.

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Compared to ROF and DCS the aircraft in IL2 fly like they're on rails. It doesn't feel like flying, the IL2 FM was good in its day but it's seriously behind ED and 777s advanced flight model programming.

 

My only real world flight experience in a small aircraft is only a short time in a glider but it felt the way the planes do in BOS and DCS, flying is a dynamic living thing.

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What has helped in my case is setting the control curves to perfectly linear within BoS for all axis and applying 3-4% of deadzone around the center, aircraft are a lot less jumpy now !

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Now that we can fly again, I can confirm that the control inputs from my joystick are smooth and linear.  I checked the response curves view and observed the animated control move without any sudden spike/jump.  I also watched from the external view the elevator as I moved the stick and it moves smoothly as well.

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S! Gents,

 

Didn't want to chip in on this topic before, as I'd not noticed the problem myself and hadn't anything useful to contribute. However, in this latest round of testing I played about a bit with the FFB settings as they have been fixed.

 

I had a problem before with the 109 not giving any stall buffet, and I was wondering if the buffet was getting swamped by the spring force (it isn't BTW, it's just not there presently). Accordingly, I reduced the spring force by about 50%, left the shake force where it was and took the 109 for a spin.

 

Having done so, I now experienced exactly the symptoms the previous posters have described with the nose of the aircraft bouncing just about all over the place. This made it especially difficult to line up shots on a target and fly neatly. I believe this was due to me over-controlling because of the lower spring force and having to make a lot of relatively small corrections. I also noticed that aileron input was giving plenty of adverse yaw.

 

Placing the FFB settings back where they were, this bouncing of the aircraft was gone. Note: I do not have the problem that a previous poster described where the response to control input is not linear, I observe the controls moving smoothly through the full travel when I operate them.

 

Now I'm tempted to beef up the springs in my rudder pedals and try to resolve a problem that I've always had (in all flight sims) with over control.

 

W.

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Now I'm tempted to beef up the springs in my rudder pedals and try to resolve a problem that I've always had (in all flight sims) with over control.

 

 

Surely this helps. Just imagine your brake pedals in your car would work with a light spring to bring it back up, and you would have to adjust the brakes by the "position" only.

 

Only workaround available is the S-curve, as you compensate with a bigger travel for the missing force. When coming into the steep flank of the curve, you normally don´t have to "fine tune" anymore. (f.e. snap roll)

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I’m giving up for the time being. I tried different curves with no particular effect on plane controllability. With lot of concentration I’m able to take off and land, but that’s all, there is not a single manoeuvre that comes out clean.

 

I have a Saitek x52 Pro and Pro rudder pedals. It’s not the best, but fact remains that my combination of stick and pilot (me) flies effectively other sims, ROF including, and enjoys it.

 

I understand that other people have less or no trouble at all, and I’m glad for them, but I’m not having fun, so I’ll be waiting the end of test phase. 

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I understand that other people have less or no trouble at all, and I’m glad for them, but I’m not having fun, so I’ll be waiting the end of test phase. 

 

You are not alone,  I have been keeping at it this weekend but yes, the controls are certainly very " nervous" at this time.

I am sure with time they will get tweaked and smoother.

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Are you guys sure your settings are holding and taking place? I can get my curves to hold, but dead zones just revert to 0 everytime.  So I can't put in a dead zone.

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Are you guys sure your settings are holding and taking place? I can get my curves to hold, but dead zones just revert to 0 everytime.  So I can't put in a dead zone.

 

In my case yes, as I set them in my Target profile for the Warthog.

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Regarding the 'wobble'/'short-period pitch oscillation', I did a test with the Bf 109 yesterday. Trimming for level flight, and then giving a rapid upward-jerk-and-release on the joystick, the aircraft showed little tendency to oscillate at all, except when tried at very low speeds - say 250 km/h or so. Above that speed, the aircraft settled immediately into the pitched-up attitude (clearly, it won't stay that way indefinitely, in that it isn't trimmed for a climb, but I'm testing the short-period oscillation, not the phugoid cycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugoid_cycle) Obviously this test is subjective in that I can't actually measure the oscillation directly, and the amount of 'jerk' may vary, but it seems to me to indicate that there is nothing drastically wrong with the FM, and that the 'wobble' is probably an overcontrol issue.

Edited by AndyJWest

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Well all my observations on this "nervousness" so far has been related to flying of the Lagg.

 

I guess I ought to take the 109 up for a spin to compare, especially as I will actually be able to trim the pitch,  it is just being an allied flyer just going to seem a little dirty :)....

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except for the cases where it is not an overcontrol issue.

 

Which cases are these? 

Well all my observations on this "nervousness" so far has been related to flying of the Lagg.

 

I guess I ought to take the 109 up for a spin to compare, especially as I will actually be able to trim the pitch,  it is just being an allied flyer just going to seem a little dirty :)....

 

Given the lack of trim for the LaGG, it is hard to say anything definite about its behaviour. I have a suspicion though that the weather settings for the LaGG dogfight mission may include some turbulence - I'll check again to be sure.

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Which cases are these? 

 

Given the lack of trim for the LaGG, it is hard to say anything definite about its behaviour. I have a suspicion though that the weather settings for the LaGG dogfight mission may include some turbulence - I'll check again to be sure.

 

Ok so just flew my first dogfight mission in the 109. I must admit, I liked having the superiority over the Lagg, did not have much trouble with them. And really nice being able to trim.

 

I still though, find the controls nervous, mainly on the pitch axis.

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Regarding the 'wobble'/'short-period pitch oscillation', I did a test with the Bf 109 yesterday. Trimming for level flight, and then giving a rapid upward-jerk-and-release on the joystick, the aircraft showed little tendency to oscillate at all, except when tried at very low speeds - say 250 km/h or so. Above that speed, the aircraft settled immediately into the pitched-up attitude (clearly, it won't stay that way indefinitely, in that it isn't trimmed for a climb, but I'm testing the short-period oscillation, not the phugoid cycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugoid_cycle) Obviously this test is subjective in that I can't actually measure the oscillation directly, and the amount of 'jerk' may vary, but it seems to me to indicate that there is nothing drastically wrong with the FM, and that the 'wobble' is probably an overcontrol issue.

I’ve read many similar posts, trying to analyse objectively and “scientifically” what looks like of problem for some, and a no-problem for others. I even tried to test the fugoid cycle, with absolutely inconclusive results.

 

I’m pretty sure over control is part of the trouble, induced by less-than perfect hardware – my joystick and pedals – and by less than perfect pilot –me. With some concentration and delicate manipulation of controls I can keep this over control under control (pardon the pun) enough to take off and land, but I need to always “stay ahead” of the plane, and if I’m in a less than perfect speed and path on the threshold, I always abort and go around.

 

Overall, however, I agree with Bongo: there’s more than overcontrol.

 

The bottom line is: there should be a less demanding (I would dare to say easy) way to set control in an at least acceptable way. I understand developers are already doing a very good job, so I’ll be waiting for improvements. What’s more, as I’m not English speaking, I don’t want to run the risk to appear harsh or to use unkind words. But I see also another risk, here. Many of the people posting in this and other threads, have very good hardware and are excellent pilots, with lots of experience and talent. Their abilities can overcome many shortcomings and are surely not representative of the average player, or the typical newcomer. And on this we all agree: we need as much happy newcomers as possible.

Edited by Furio

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Since I enabled Centering Spring Strength (40%) on my G940 joystick, planes are much more stable.

They keep their course nicely. 

Edited by ST_ami7b5

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..Ok, I can see this thread is going to go down the pan, like so many before. Clearly if anyone is interested in actually discussing BoS issues without acting like a bunch of rutting stags, it will have to be done elsewhere...

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..Ok, I can see this thread is going to go down the pan, like so many before. Clearly if anyone is interested in actually discussing BoS issues without acting like a bunch of rutting stags, it will have to be done elsewhere...

Andy, I really appreciate your effort. I have problems at any speed. Nose oscillations are unpredictable and the nose never returns by itself to original course or speed as if the stability would be completely neutral in all axes.

 

As I said before, I’m sure I’m compounding the problems, and I’m convinced that some simmers here are reducing the problems, as sort of human fly-by-wire. The main point, for me, is that it should not be so demanding to achieve at least decent control settings and sensitivity. I suppose the control setting system could contribute to ease the life to us less lucky players, and there could be room for improvements by the developers.

 

p.s.: I tried to quote post 243, but an error occurred.

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I was testing BoS again... changed curves, etc.

 

Its the same problem again which was correctly described by Kwiatek, Furio and many many others.

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To add another input;

 

Make sure your hand that's controlling is well supported and not hanging free in air. This support would add a lot of stability and controlability. I use a little pillow and it works wonders. 

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