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AeroAce

Why is Normal Easy ?

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Just wanted to throw it out there that a lot of people say ahh normal is easy! But is it?

 

Yes it is very different to expert in terms of spotting, engine mangment and generly team work...... But certain things that expert players love such as the abillity to escape are not there hence making it very hard!

 

What I wanted to do with this post is just stop this normal is easy BS! Expert has more in depth, longer naratives for those that play that! But for the love of god stop calling us noobs and then rage quiting when u get lead up ur ass!

 

PS normal is a first port of call for new people and I will help anyone!

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Normal wouldn't be easy if you aren't flying the best plane. There's no chance your opponent will ever lose sight of you which as they say "Lose Sight Lose the Fight".

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I enjoy both normal and expert. I wouldn't say normal is easy, maybe just easier than expert (from a spotting and tracking viewpoint). Not much chance in normal of getting jumped on your six, you can see the planes a long way off. On the other hand, in expert you better be constantly checking your six, and all around you for that matter. Normal for me is more relaxed and fun, expert is for when I want to get the adrenaline flowing. I get shot down a lot flying on both, but have fun either way. 

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I have much easier time in shooting ppl down in expert.

 

In normal mode, you basically fly with navigation lights on where everyone can see you.

Navigation lights that also penetrates metal, cloud, trees and anything between you and belligerent's cornea.

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Well, dunno what to say, but there is simply far less to do in Easy mode, hence making it comparatively easy. ^^ And if you have less of a problem shooting people down in expert mode, that only enforces that perception, because expert is not easy and people mess up/don't check their six/are overwhelmed with doing all the stuff that needs doing at once: flying the plane, managing the engines, keeping situational awareness, navigation...So I wouldn't see calling easy mode easy as an insult or incorrect, to be honest.

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Agree with etherlight: It's called easy because the workload on the pilot is less.

 

Sure, making it easier for you to shoot someone down does in fact make it harder for your opponent to get away. That's a tautology.

 

Same with making it easier for you to not get bounced. Makes it harder for you to be snuck-up on.

Edited by JG13_opcode

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Normal even things out, this is why new players tend to fly there. When new players are getting good they do not want new players having even odds against them so they migrate to expert servers. There are of course many whom go back for the fun of it. But I am not one of them.

I do not fly for that kind of fun. To me it simply isn´t. I fly for the challenge of it, I hate dogfights and fighter duty. Bore the crap out of me. 

Personally I do not get your meaning, You choose a server with easy settings, so what? if you think that is fun , why not?

I find many things in this game sort of simplified, other is totally up there high.

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Normal wouldn't be easy if you aren't flying the best plane. There's no chance your opponent will ever lose sight of you which as they say "Lose Sight Lose the Fight".

 

This is an important point for MP. Flying on normal in MP (as I personally often do) really makes it much more about the machine and who can press it into doing the most effective maneuvers and less about the pilot.

 

On expert, situational awareness is the single most important component of fighting effectively, and for ppl who fly VVS it hits double when you move to expert, because you also now have to work harder to operate the engine.

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Better is to add another setting so we have:

 

- easy   (what is now called normal - simple automated engine management + icons/hud)

 

- normal   (automatic engine management, but without icons/hud so no see trough cockpit tracking)

 

- expert   (as it is now where you manually manage everything this sim offers so far)

 

One more thing ROF/BOS did not do right compared to old IL2:46, icons/padlock should not work trough solid part of cockpit, meaning icons are visible only if plane itself is visible and padlock should disengage lock if plane is not seen once within some time limit (lets say 2-3 sec, this could be server option).

 

 

Think that would give a lot of options for fun servers with a bit more situational awareness needed even for those not into expert CEM. Not my cup of cake but I'd sure enable this for others and longevity of the franchise. 

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Yeah, maybe we can have an Arcade Battles, Realistic Battles and Simulator Battles difficulty preset and some kind of match maker.

 

/s

 

Oh come on even in "Normal" mode IL-2 bos is nothing like the game you're referring to that I refuse to speak the name of.   You don't become a UFO just for allowing labels/icons and automatic engine management.  It''s all up to the server host in IL-2 BoS.    I've often wished the game you're referring to did have a stick only arcade mode however, as it was nice to be able to jump into a full battle when you didn't have a lot of time :P

 

That being said though.. that game is uninstalled and has been since before I even discoverd the IL-2 series. In fact it was my disdain for it that led to me discovering better sims.   IL-2 BoS I play frequently on both expert and normal.   Don't see your need for sarcasm. 

Edited by headwarp

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Hence the sarcasm.

Then pardon my confusion.. I agree 100% with the use of dedicated servers.   Anybody who was a pc gamer in the mid to late 90's saw how they were an immense improvement over the p2p/matchmaking/serial/lan setups we were using previously on programs like Kali >.<  I think it's even especially more true with the amount of bandwidth available to people today.   Could easily host servers from a server box at home. 

 

But I think your point was that - play on the type of server you prefer playing on..  or maybe make your own.  We have options. ;)  And my apologies Ghost. 

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Guest deleted@30725

The planes fly the same though which is a bonus. It would be terrible if the FM was simpler on the normal servers. Some people, like myself want a quick game with normal focusing on the flying more and not having to check every pixel to see if it is changing shape or turning into a player plane.

 

If someone were to call me a noob for playing normal then I'd say that person, who probably plays expert is a pompous ass. Normal and expert are two different play styles for the same game so it doesn't really matter what you play. I like both, but I would never call out someone for choosing either game style.

 

You can be the best navigator in Expert, but if you still can't shoot and fly then you're just an empty slot.

 

I suppose there may be a bigger division for people who play with a mouse or with joystick. I would think that's more like to start an argument than whether you play normal or expert, but then that's just controller aptitude. Anyone can be good at something if they put enough time into it so even if a stick user calls out a mouse user, the stick user has probably logged 20 hours on the stick.

 

People will always look for any excuse to belittle ones beliefs or actions. Some people are just rude like that.

Edited by deleted@30725

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Navigation lights that also penetrates metal, cloud, trees and anything between you and belligerent's cornea.

 That is precisely what I would like very much to see change.

 

That particular aspect should be in a "easy" mode ; About Normal mode, 2 things imho :

 

1) "Normal" mode would get rid from the spotting arrows (this Falcon X-51 Secret Area style is a shame, should be only in a "easy" mode).

2) "Normal" shouldn't show you any icon that you can't actually see. And maybe shouldn't show you the distance also.

Edited by Solmyr

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 That is precisely what I would like very much to see change.

 

That particular aspect should be in a "easy" mode ; About Normal mode, 2 things imho :

 

1) "Normal" mode would get rid from the spotting arrows (this Falcon X-51 Secret Area style is a shame, should be only in a "easy" mode).

2) "Normal" shouldn't show you any icon that you can't actually see. And maybe shouldn't show you the distance also.

 

I did actually like how 1946 did labels.  I could see distance being optional for people who want to practice judging distance.. but I'd be ok with a mode that let you take a break from the struggles of identification, while still only showing what you're able to physically see through the cockpit.   Sometimes I feel like I need a full 360 degree projection screen with a life size cockpit to really be on the ball in expert. >.<

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I just (mostly) want the icon distance to be cut in half again. Grayed out at 5km and the color bleeding in at 1-1.5km. Slightly more challenging would require better scanning and SA while still being essentially a DF server for good action.

 

That is all..........................

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I just (mostly) want the icon distance to be cut in half again. Grayed out at 5km and the color bleeding in at 1-1.5km. Slightly more challenging would require better scanning and SA while still being essentially a DF server for good action.

 

That is all..........................

 

but you can spectate them anyway, and use F11 to zoom the camera around. so that would be fairly pointless

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but you can spectate them anyway, and use F11 to zoom the camera around. so that would be fairly pointless

Yes and no. Enemy external views could be disabled and F11 view really does not help so much. (would of course be good to have it disabled anyways. )

 

Custom Icons was really a very useful feature of the old sturm.

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Yes and no. Enemy external views could be disabled and F11 view really does not help so much. (would of course be good to have it disabled anyways. )

 

Custom Icons was really a very useful feature of the old sturm.

true, would be nice to have more options for difficulty, but can also complicates things. (just my opinion)

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I'm still learning combat in MP so i might call myself a noob in it, expert is more immersive than normal but for quick fun and when there is a lack of time "normal" is perfect, while some skills needed are on same level like in expert(combat engagement) normal just takes away spotting advantage,some tactics and reduce time till fight.

Still main goal is become good pilot in expert on a both sides.

However risk is adding another diff level that might attract new players but also decrease number of players per server(which is already low).

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I'm still learning combat in MP so i might call myself a noob in it, expert is more immersive than normal but for quick fun and when there is a lack of time "normal" is perfect, while some skills needed are on same level like in expert(combat engagement) normal just takes away spotting advantage,some tactics and reduce time till fight.

Still main goal is become good pilot in expert on a both sides.

However risk is adding another diff level that might attract new players but also decrease number of players per server(which is already low).

 

Depends on the server. I regularly see WoL full at 84/84, I've seen Berloga - Duel and dogfight up to 40 people.  Finnish Dynamic War with 60 people.   I personally don't fly on just one server and I'm sure it's the same with other players.. they'll go where their friends go or where they'll find more action.  I think the bigger issue is that tthere are generally only between like 7-12  servers at any given time with any population at all on them..hopefully that will improve over time as the game continues to be developed and word of mouth spreads.  Options are good imo.. attract as many players as we can with as many options as possible in both SP/MP.. eventually people who find they enjoy it will work their way into expert servers from time to time. 

 

*Edit* In the spirit of attracting more players.. we have to consider the new comer.  Personally I wasn't around for the glory days of IL-2:1946.  The first few times I tried to get into DCS I ended up putting my flight gear away just due to the nature of the controls menu. 

 

Flight sims of this nature can be pretty intimidating to a newcomer.  I've been simming regularly for about a year now and still get my tail handed to me in many situations.  I'm getting better.. but I'd love it if modern sims came with some form of in depth interactive training.  Even DCS with it's green boxes floating in the air hardly covers enough to send you out into battle prepared.   Here..read this 600 page manual, and do our training sessions.. that teach you only very very basic things. "Am I doing that maneuver right?" I ask the youtube video, and the answer is probably not. 

 

I get that we have aviation nuts and people who have been doing this for years on end playing the game.  But we already have the option of flying one of the most realistic flight sims we can afford.  I don't think the aim should be to limit things that might make a new player feel more welcome to something he's never done before. At the same time, I don't want the game dumbed down as a whole.. but it's not bad having some options that make it easier to focus on specific aspects of your own performance. I want those guys coming in.. let them be the easy target for once instead of me. 

Edited by headwarp

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but you can spectate them anyway, and use F11 to zoom the camera around. so that would be fairly pointless

So since there's a spectator camera that some goofeball might try and use to his advantage at some point, by extension then icon changes are pointless for the majority?

 

From a player standpoint I would want what Murf suggested if I was prone to flying on servers with icons - which I'm not. I can see the value in that however.

 

From a mission building/testing standpoint I need icons to stay where they're at - as testing SP missions would be more difficult if I couldn't tell who was spawning where a good distance out.

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I would also posit that if you are using the F11 camera your SA would be considerably worse overall. Especially if icons were reduced. It's not the eye of Sauron.

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Depends on the server. I regularly see WoL full at 84/84, I've seen Berloga - Duel and dogfight up to 40 people.  Finnish Dynamic War with 60 people.   I personally don't fly on just one server and I'm sure it's the same with other players.. they'll go where their friends go or where they'll find more action.  I think the bigger issue is that tthere are generally only between like 7-12  servers at any given time with any population at all on them..hopefully that will improve over time as the game continues to be developed and word of mouth spreads.  Options are good imo.. attract as many players as we can with as many options as possible in both SP/MP.. eventually people who find they enjoy it will work their way into expert servers from time to time. 

 

*Edit* In the spirit of attracting more players.. we have to consider the new comer.  Personally I wasn't around for the glory days of IL-2:1946.  The first few times I tried to get into DCS I ended up putting my flight gear away just due to the nature of the controls menu. 

 

Flight sims of this nature can be pretty intimidating to a newcomer.  I've been simming regularly for about a year now and still get my tail handed to me in many situations.  I'm getting better.. but I'd love it if modern sims came with some form of in depth interactive training.  Even DCS with it's green boxes floating in the air hardly covers enough to send you out into battle prepared.   Here..read this 600 page manual, and do our training sessions.. that teach you only very very basic things. "Am I doing that maneuver right?" I ask the youtube video, and the answer is probably not. 

 

I get that we have aviation nuts and people who have been doing this for years on end playing the game.  But we already have the option of flying one of the most realistic flight sims we can afford.  I don't think the aim should be to limit things that might make a new player feel more welcome to something he's never done before. At the same time, I don't want the game dumbed down as a whole.. but it's not bad having some options that make it easier to focus on specific aspects of your own performance. I want those guys coming in.. let them be the easy target for once instead of me. 

i've played il2 since original trought 1946, but only in SP, after 1946 i've stoped and came back in bos....i like it cos of it's realism so i play il2 not WT(even i can't judge it cos i never played it), but if that would help devs to fund it than ok to implement easy mode.

But easy mode will not learn you flying skills, instead it would make it even hardwer to learn expert mode.

Learning maneuvers and tactics is a bit tricky to find out, but rest of the stuff like engine and plane managment is simple and easy to find and learn.

what i'm missing will come in december: career mode and coop.

WoL and finnish server are awesome i play on all of them (mostly as a target lol) but i hope there will be more servers and players with upcoming BoK. 

i agree there should be at least sticky thread explaining every plane and it's tactics, advantages and such, even simple things like energy saving and it's impact on combat

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i've played il2 since original trought 1946, but only in SP, after 1946 i've stoped and came back in bos....i like it cos of it's realism so i play il2 not WT(even i can't judge it cos i never played it), but if that would help devs to fund it than ok to implement easy mode.

But easy mode will not learn you flying skills, instead it would make it even hardwer to learn expert mode.

Learning maneuvers and tactics is a bit tricky to find out, but rest of the stuff like engine and plane managment is simple and easy to find and learn.

what i'm missing will come in december: career mode and coop.

WoL and finnish server are awesome i play on all of them (mostly as a target lol) but i hope there will be more servers and players with upcoming BoK. 

i agree there should be at least sticky thread explaining every plane and it's tactics, advantages and such, even simple things like energy saving and it's impact on combat

 

I don't know where you think I brought up war thunder anywhere in that post or that I was asking for some kind of instructor that flies my plane for me or where I specifically said "easy mode".   I'm glad you enjoy realism and expert mode..but having a limited number of servers with population is an indicator that our player base is pretty small. and I'm in the opinion that the more players we bring in.. the better the chance of success..the more resources the developers have to put towards things they feel like they can't right now because they need to produce revenue. 

 

I hope to GOD IL-2 never becomes as simplified as War Thunder..

 

That doesn't mean there aren't a plethora of ideas that could open the experience of newcomers to help them out with the already present learning curve involved in getting a realistic FM in the air and using it with any kind of effectiveness. 

 

IL-2 1946 had OPTIONS for realism.  Widely regarded as one of the best flight sims of all time... But even it didn't offer training that I found particularly useful.    

 

I was mainly responding to the idea of restricting labels to only show range at under 2km.. I don't see a problem with the OPTION of doing this.. but I don't see why someone shouldn't also be allowed to have the option to have an opportunity to help them learn to judge distance. 

 

As it stands - I could easily see a total newbie who thought he would like the concept of flying being completely scared away if expert were the only available mode of play.  I could see it even with the options we currently have available.   I agree - can't wait for Career mode (PWCG is nice but we need more abilities with the radio imo to fly any position but flight lead and even then) CO-OP would be absolutely beautiful.    I just think there could be more in the way of a "newcomer" experience to convince more people to give combat sims a chance.. as it's easier to convince someone who is already playing the game to come fly in full expert mode with you than it is to convince them to invest $$$ into a game in the first place. 

 

You want realism?  In real life pilots are given hours of instruction with an instructor who tells them exactly what to do and generally what and how they're doing something wrong.  Combat pilot spent many hours in training planes learning the basics from a qualified instructor before they ever set foot in a combat ready aircraft.   What we seem to have in the simming world is like throwing you into the deep water to learn to swim with the threat of hypothermia. 

Edited by headwarp

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I don't know where you think I brought up war thunder anywhere in that post or that I was asking for some kind of instructor that flies my plane for me or where I specifically said "easy mode".   I'm glad you enjoy realism and expert mode..but having a limited number of servers with population is an indicator that our player base is pretty small. and I'm in the opinion that the more players we bring in.. the better the chance of success..the more resources the developers have to put towards things they feel like they can't right now because they need to produce revenue. 

 

I hope to GOD IL-2 never becomes as simplified as War Thunder..

 

That doesn't mean there aren't a plethora of ideas that could open the experience of newcomers to help them out with the already present learning curve involved in getting a realistic FM in the air and using it with any kind of effectiveness. 

 

IL-2 1946 had OPTIONS for realism.  Widely regarded as one of the best flight sims of all time... But even it didn't offer training that I found particularly useful.    

 

I was mainly responding to the idea of restricting labels to only show range at under 2km.. I don't see a problem with the OPTION of doing this.. but I don't see why someone shouldn't also be allowed to have the option to have an opportunity to help them learn to judge distance. 

 

As it stands - I could easily see a total newbie who thought he would like the concept of flying being completely scared away if expert were the only available mode of play.  I could see it even with the options we currently have available.   I agree - can't wait for Career mode (PWCG is nice but we need more abilities with the radio imo to fly any position but flight lead and even then) CO-OP would be absolutely beautiful.    I just think there could be more in the way of a "newcomer" experience to convince more people to give combat sims a chance.. as it's easier to convince someone who is already playing the game to come fly in full expert mode with you than it is to convince them to invest $$$ into a game in the first place. 

 

You want realism?  In real life pilots are given hours of instruction with an instructor who tells them exactly what to do and generally what and how they're doing something wrong.  Combat pilot spent many hours in training planes learning the basics from a qualified instructor before they ever set foot in a combat ready aircraft.   What we seem to have in the simming world is like throwing you into the deep water to learn to swim with the threat of hypothermia. 

no i didn't think you mentioned WT nor that i'm against having easy mode, you get me all wrong i just expressed my situation ingame(what i like and my opinion) and i agree with you that some training features would be nice, hell i need them right now.

also i agree more options are ingame more players it can attract and better for devs in term of funds. Again my reply wasn't with intention to oppose you in fact just opposite, i stated my situation and that it would be nice to have some training tutorials at least a thread on forum explaining every plane and it's tactics.

i think you misunderstood me!

Edited by redribbon

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no i didn't think you mentioned WT nor that i'm against having easy mode, you get me all wrong i just expressed my situation ingame(what i like and my opinion) and i agree with you that some training features would be nice, hell i need them right now.

also i agree more options are ingame more players it can attract and better for devs in term of funds. Again my reply wasn't with intention to oppose you in fact just opposite, i stated my situation and that it would be nice to have some training tutorials at least a thread on forum explaining every plane and it's tactics.

i think you misunderstood me!

 

Sorry for misunderstanding.   I can get a little carried away with my keyboard.

 

 

 

AND SHARKS!!!!!

 

10597359_682559311822410_475738194_n_zps

 

Lol. 

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This is an important point for MP. Flying on normal in MP (as I personally often do) really makes it much more about the machine and who can press it into doing the most effective maneuvers and less about the pilot.

 

Isn't "who can press the machine into doing the most effective maneuvers" exactly about the pilot?

Edited by LLv34_Wmaker

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Haven't said much on this board and I just want to say that the overall quality and attention to detail in this game is brilliant just like it was/is in RoF. For an aircraft nut like me it is simply amazing to look at the beautifully done aircraft models and their small details. I have my smaller pet peeves but those are beside the point regarding this thread.

 

The fact that there isn't anything between no icons at all and the icons that can be seen through anything and can't be modified in anyway is the single biggest issue that I have with the game right now.

 

It would be amazing to have icon system that would be powerfully customizable for both offline and online use.

 

This game is developed by a very talented development team. Personally, more than anything else regarding this game, I would like to see their take on a dynamic and customizable icon system that would provide something in between the "seen-through-all-and-ground-objects-included-icons" and the relative blindness that the iconless environment provides compared to the real world.

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I suppose the reason you can see icons through the aircraft is either;

A game engine issue, they're just screen graphics so how would the game know they're behind anything?

Or, it's a boost for players without head tracking, without 6dof and the ability to simply lean to look around canopy frames, the cockpit view becomes really obstructive and there's no "virtual cockpit" mode. Making the icons always visible esentially creates that.

 

Icons vs No Icons isn't really a question of easy vs difficult. It's a question of realistic vs game-like. Simulator vs Arcade. The hallmark of real air combat is that other aircraft aren't so easily seen or identified. With icons there can never be any surprise or anything enexpected. That makes the game easier if you're flying the better plane but harder if you're not since there's no chance of catching an enemy unaware in the way it happens in reality.

 

Just look at the Dicta Boelcke, the very basics of aerial combat. Rule #1 is to attack your enemy with surprise. Not possible using icons. So right away there's no realism. #4 Keep Your Eye on Your Opponent. Too easy using icons.

 

Icons are a fine game aid, but the resulting action from relying on them is nothing realistic.

Edited by SharpeXB

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I suppose the reason you can see icons through the aircraft is either;

A game engine issue, they're just screen graphics so how would the game know they're behind anything?

 

Err.. So you'd be able to see landscape through the plane also ?  ;)

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Icons vs No Icons isn't really a question of easy vs difficult. It's a question of realistic vs game-like. Simulator vs Arcade. The hallmark of real air combat is that other aircraft aren't so easily seen or identified. With icons there can never be any surprise or anything enexpected. That makes the game easier if you're flying the better plane but harder if you're not since there's no chance of catching an enemy unaware in the way it happens in reality.

 

 

I don't think so. In real life you can move your head, focus your eyes on something easily. You have peripheral vision etc. Now a Player that has a cheap joystick and no headtracking has it considerably harder than a pilot IRL. Now with icons that only show a plane like 2 or 3 kms out (with no arrows for directions) is just a help to improve on the missing abilities of the computer setup.

 

With the current "see it all" setup you can not have a feel of realism with icons on and you dont have fun as a casual Player with no icons shown.

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Err.. So you'd be able to see landscape through the plane also ?  ;)

Perhaps it's much more simple. The game engine can craw the icon just the same way it draws a tree or piece on another object if you can or can't see it. Anyways I suppose the always visible icons are there to create a virtual cockpit effect.

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I don't think so. In real life you can move your head, focus your eyes on something easily. You have peripheral vision etc. Now a Player that has a cheap joystick and no headtracking has it considerably harder than a pilot IRL. Now with icons that only show a plane like 2 or 3 kms out (with no arrows for directions) is just a help to improve on the missing abilities of the computer setup.

 

With the current "see it all" setup you can not have a feel of realism with icons on and you dont have fun as a casual Player with no icons shown.

^this^.....same is in Arma and it's aiming stamina, it needs to compensate some advantages taken by pc, but in MP those advantages are for both sides.

 not all ppl like the sam things so why not something for everybody!

i don't see icons make il2 arcadish game, it just make time between combat more tight. in MP i play expert but in SP i play on normal cos i want to enjoy shooting down as many planes i can get.

However expert makes pilot to be on guard all the time so i find it more immersive.

Conclusion; game is good as it is!

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