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Will there be some type of balancing when Multiplayer arrives?

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I am just curious if there will be something like automatically swapping sides after each round and been locked to that side? I ask this because if the 109 is going to be a Superior plane, then surely lots of players are going to want to use that all the time. I am new to the WW2, I never played 1946, so I'm just wondering how it all works out when one plane is vastly superior to the other. 

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Same way in RoF would be my guess. The mission editor allows for restricting where planes can spawn, how many are available in the pool (total) and even how many can be airborne at any given time. So what we may see is servers setting up asymmetric teams. Also, in an objective based environment I think the LaGG-3 will do well. It is inferior 1v1 vs a Bf-109F4 but when you factor in bomber interception, ground attack, escort duty and so on, suddenly the LaGG is a lot more appealing than if only considering pure fighter vs fighter combat.

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Same way in RoF would be my guess. The mission editor allows for restricting where planes can spawn, how many are available in the pool (total) and even how many can be airborne at any given time. So what we may see is servers setting up asymmetric teams. Also, in an objective based environment I think the LaGG-3 will do well. It is inferior 1v1 vs a Bf-109F4 but when you factor in bomber interception, ground attack, escort duty and so on, suddenly the LaGG is a lot more appealing than if only considering pure fighter vs fighter combat.

 

That sounds like it's going to be good all around then and a right blast. Thanks for giving me some idea of what's it's going to be like.

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The fact that the plane is superior doesn't mean the player is, trying to balance the game would mean either :

 

A) Render the FM inaccurate, people will complain some way or another (I know I will =p)

B) Do nothing.

 

I vote for B.

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You can always send a bunch of Al Il-2s in front as bait, to run them out of ammo. :)

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I hope they leave it as much as possible the way it was back then.

If the Lagg was a lousy fighter against the 109 then that's just tough luck imo.

I'll figure out why the Russians kept flying the plane, for I love it as the aircraft that it is in this sim right now.

I think King's suggestion is worth the wait for the SP/MP once the sim is released.

 

Good times ahead and great times right now.

:drink2:

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From a practical standpoint, how I see a MP mission being setup on an objective based server is:

 

1) 30 vs 30 map + some AI.

 

2) No limit on number of LaGG-3, IL-2, Pe-2, Ju-87D3 or He-111.

 

3) 16 initial Bf-109F4 with a resupply rate of 1 every 5 minutes (as an example, could be anything).

 

4) 2-3 airfields per team to choose from (destroyable but can be repaired over time).

 

5) An aircraft factory, destorying this prevents Bf-109F4's from being resupplied until factory is repaired.

 

6) Recon objectives, flying a recon mission grants access to 8x Bf-109G2 or Yak-1's depending on team.

 

7) Tank company, will capture airfields unless destroyed.

 

8) Train, will supply new tanks to front lines unless intercepted.

 

9) Tank factory, will spawn new supply trains (with tanks) over time.

 

All of this should be possible in BoS since this type of setup is the standard in RoF objective based maps.

Edited by =LD=King_Hrothgar

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Yeah I'd rather expect unlimited F4 and Yak1s/LaGGs, limited La5s and G2s and heavily limited 190s (if even allowed at all).

 

At least, in an Il2 like online scenario.

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I believe that that won't be in the sim from other than a mission design standpoint...

 

The fact that the plane is superior doesn't mean the player is, trying to balance the game would mean either :

 

A) Render the FM inaccurate, people will complain some way or another (I know I will =p)

B) Do nothing.

 

I vote for B.

 

Me too.. I don't remember the DD but I believe the devs said as much.

 

I hope they leave it as much as possible the way it was back then.

If the Lagg was a lousy fighter against the 109 then that's just tough luck imo.

I'll figure out why the Russians kept flying the plane, for I love it as the aircraft that it is in this sim right now.

I think King's suggestion is worth the wait for the SP/MP once the sim is released.

 

Good times ahead and great times right now.

:drink2:

 

Good times right now and great times ahead..? ;):salute:

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From a practical standpoint, how I see a MP mission being setup on an objective based server is:

Without a single unlimited fighter on the Axis side?

 

I really see no reason why both the F-4 nor G-2 for that matter (they should perform extremely similar, with the F-4 maybe even having a slight edge over the G-2) should be limited.

 

The Yak-1 should be quite capable against the 109s and even if it still is inferior in areas, that's how it was. Then there's still the La-5, though how it will perform compared to the Yak-1 is not that obvious yet. The last thing BoS needs is another type of balancing of plane types in MP that RoF has.

 

Now balancing player numbers for each side is a different matter. I expect the German planes to be way more popular than the Soviet planes.

 

The fighters shouldn't be the planes deciding the outcome of a MP mission anyway. That should be up to the other planes. And the IL-2 and Pe-2 are really good in that.

Edited by Matt

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I would think the Yak is going to be the main red fighter which should be very competitive with the 109 F.

 

Yes, the LaGG-3 seems like a very capable dedicated bomber interceptor, but the first real multiplayer workhorse for dealing with the BF-109 will likely be the YAK-1 Series 69.  :salute: MJ

Edited by =69.GIAP=MIKHA

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I hope so, its like a il2 109 a ufo flightmodel on rails vs a flying wobbly garbagetruck with no turn climb and rubberband stalls. I know still a wip and still alot of work in being done:)

 

 

If its going to be like il2 1946 will need  p39 to match the 109f. Lagg3 and 109 use to be awesome  fight either side back in the original il2 and early forgotten battles a very even fight but got whined to a trash heep.

 

 

Im at the point where I hope we can get some host options to make fm dm and weapon hits be identical equal by the click of a button if host chooses. Eliminate the online fm discussion completely fun and even for both sides. Who cares at one mans view of realism.

 

For online play completely even is the best fun in my opinion. For instance having the games standard fm, then the host option to make  twin engine bombers have the same, early fighters, middlewar fighter, and late war fighters each have a seperate idential fm dm and gunning with one host click   :) I doubt it but thats one of the things I always wanted like being able to lock cockpit view which il2 was the first to do.

 

I have a tir5 but would really like to be able to map gunsite view, normal and wide to 3 buttons. Just seems so much quicker and use to it.

Edited by Leadspitter

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Will there be some type of balancing

Hope not. :)

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Hope not. :)

 

 

Agree 100%.   That said I hope the initial Luftwaffe "happy days" won't hurt the popularity of the sim.

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In an historical scenario I'd expect the Luftwaffe to be outnumbered.

 

Also mission objectives can make so that the relative performances of two fighters won't decide the battle alone.

 

I'm really against any kind of artificial balancing regarding plane or weapons performances.

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The 109 is a formidable opponent, sure.! But MEH!, the 109 isn't invincible! It bleeds just like the rest of them.

That said, I would hate to see any balancing done here! If the 109 has percieved advantages and these are fairly accurate, then they should remain.

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Same here,

realistic is the best.

Fun is also fighting against odds, circumventing plane limits.

Also there's a lot of ways to build missions in a way that planes' advantages are reduced.

Edited by FS_Fenice_1965
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Not familiar what kind of multi player options there will be, but IRL air battles were rarely even if you think about plane counts involved.

The other side could easily have twice as many planes.

I think something like this could be one solution to balance, at least when playing IL2 COOP style missions.

No idea if those will be possible in this game.

Edited by ph1317

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I'm also in favour of not balancing, but I know it won't work.

 

I like to fly the bf109 regardless of the opponent since the original IL2 days. However we saw in COD that the Spitfire Mark I wasn't popular and suddenly we had all these 'I fly allies only' players suddenly jump ship and fly the 109. I spent more time in a Spit in COD MP just because there was no one on the allied side playing and it was boring flying the 109 with nobody to shoot at.

 

Just like COD I see myself being forced to fly the LaGG 3 in MP because there will be 15 109's in the sky and maybe two LaGG 3. I don't understand why people join a server and don't try to balance the sides. I'd rather get shot down and dominated than fly around with nothing to do.

 

A lot of players in MP pick the best plane. They won't fly their favourite plane if it is inferior to the opponent. If this series continues into other arenas you'll see everyone jump ship when the Yak 3 and La 7 come around. Mark my words.  :P

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No ballancing please.

Pilots will make the difference :)

 

Id prefer servers to be able to set a limit on planes available by date and by nation. Eg lets not have it blue vs red.  It has to be axis vs Soviet.  I used to hate servers where everyone had a LA 7 or a KI 84 / ME 262 . All jumbled togeather on both sides. It totally burst any realism bubble. lol.

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Agree 100%.   That said I hope the initial Luftwaffe "happy days" won't hurt the popularity of the sim.

+ with introduction of various other airplanes, I don't believe it will really be this black/white as it is now.

On more serious servers it certainly wont be as easy, especially on summer/autumn maps. Winter maps improve SA.

 

LaGG pilots can always opt to stay above their lines, fly defensively, group when they escort IL-2's etc. so I'm saying in a way that brains help much more than having a good aircraft.

 

I also believe that Yak is more capable for the popular dogfighting style and probably will be no.1 weapon of choice for Soviet pilots for classic superiority fights.

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indeed, the Yak1 should be able to closely match the F-4 at low altitudes and if the VVS still proves too unpopular servers can allow more La5s and/or less Fw190s.

From my experiences in Il2 and ROF it does seem the German side will always be more popular, even the less competitive planes.

 

Btw, I am expecting the La5 to be nothing like the ones in the old il2, even if the La5 itself wasn't that great either in Il2. It will be heavier than both the Yak and 109 and while it might regain energy relatively well due to its engine I don't expect it to be very efficient in sharp manouvres - I am not using the word "turn" on purpose :) So a 109 will probably have to either "flee" to high altitude to get away from the La5s or try to beat it in a stall fight. With Yaks joining that fight, I don't see the 109s coming out on top against such a combination.

 

 

I don't understand why people join a server and don't try to balance the sides. I'd rather get shot down and dominated than fly around with nothing to do.

It drove me away from il2 in 2008 and it annoyed me in ROF most of the time. Trying something new must be really scary :)

Edited by ImPeRaToR

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I dont remember the La5 being that great. Underpowered seems to be in my memory. The La5FN now that was great. That was my favorite ever plane. 

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Balance schmalance!

 

If you fly smart and don't lone-wolf it all the time, a performance balance should not even come in to it.

 

I guess it will depend on how MP servers are set up, and If we are able to build missions to host.

 

Either way, I'm looking forward to some MP action, once I stop crashing on landing that is. :biggrin:

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The Axis side may end up being more popular, at least initially. I hope that we don't see maps where there are fifty BF-109 pilots and two LaGG-3 pilots, but only time will tell. I have a feeling that the Yak-1 and the La-5 will help motivate some players to switch sides, when sides are very onesided. I am also sure that mission map makers can find ways to make things interesting for both sides.   :salute: MJ

Edited by =69.GIAP=MIKHA

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I'm all for keeping it realistic, and wasn't the Yak-1 and later series the better aircraft then most of the early to mid model 109's with the K4 being the exception?

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I'm pretty sure there will be a lot of "soviet" pilots taking pleasure in making kills in a inferior airplane. Call it ego if you will. :P

Edited by Cujo

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If there is possibility to limit number of planes so that both sides will have roughly equal number, no other balancing should be needed. Yak-1 will be good enough to offer fighting chance for VVS players and IL-2 and Pe-2 will be very capable in ground attack role. And some people will fly LaGG-3 because they like the plane.

IMO, balancing flight models somehow would ruin the game, on the other hand I would not mind having plane numbers balanced somehow. As back in the day when flying IL-2:1946 I became "red" flyer for the reason there were always more people on German side (I flew mostly on warclouds at the time), and I would like to have the chance to fly more on luftwaffe this time...

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How about missions where 1 x 109 becomes available for every 3 x lagg3 that actualy take off?

 

Locking fixed gunpods on the 109's with 100 gasing? Unlimmited Boms/rockets?

 

There sure are ways and if not they can be added ...

 

Only don't limit creative thinking :)

Limiting aircraft so low that people have to wait to respawn can also make them leave. The situation where Germans run out of 109s because they are spawning too slowly (for example because it is a new mission that needs tweaking) or perhaps because on that one day there are especially bad LW pilots flying might lead to a situation where the VVS will have an increasing superiority in numbers ,eventually leading to more and more people from both sides leaving the server.

People want to fly their favourite planes or at least favourite "role", which generally is fighters. If there are no fighters at all, and there is no inferior replacement fighter for the 109, they  can't.

 

*cough* IAR *cough*

 

 

Anyway... :) What I think will work best is having 109F-4 and Yak1 unlimited, as well as LaGG3s and all the ground pounders. Then "balance" can somehow be achieved with adding limited G-2s and La5s and maybe add some homoeopathic dosages of Fw190, though I am still worried the latter will prove even more superior in general than the 109s.

I am not really a fan of limiting specific plane types anymore though. It is unfair to those who join too late to get one. In an online war where your squadron can earn the right to fly better planes - and where flying inferior planes at some point is part of the fun - I am all for it, but being forced to fly a crappy plane because of bad timing or whatever, and not being able to get a better one other than chance, I don't like it.

 

So generally unlimiting all planes would solve this issue, everyone can fly what he wants. Of course in this case people who prefer to fly the underdog will have an even harder time because the enemy will have more of the better planes. On the German side, I actually expect all three fighters to be more or less equal in the general "efficiency" as a fighter, with an edge for the 190 - on the Russian side the La5 will probably have quite the edge over the Yak though and most people will probably fly it in an unlimited scenario. Even if it won't turn as well as the yak it will have more speed and firepower.

 

 

The possibly best "solution" for a public server might be an idea =FB=Vaal had a long time ago while the ROF DF mode was being developed, basically every player gets his own "plane set". For example every pilot gets to spawn one Fw190, one G-2 and unlimited numbers of the other planes on the German side.

This way it doesn't matter when somebody joins, you can still make sure there is a certain balance within the plane set and it is equal chances for everyone. Except it is not possible in ROF so I doubt it will be in BOS.

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Maybe there could be a limitation that if team X has N pilots more, then next joining players have to pick team Y.

Server host could decide how many players more one side can have.

Either with number of players of percentage.

So if the limit was 50% it would be possible to have teams 6 against 3, but not 7 against 3.

Edited by ph1317

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You can balance by forcing the superior aircraft to fly further to get to where most of the fighting is expected.  That will hopefully result in higher numbers of inferior aircraft in the battle area, thus (hopefully) evening the sides.

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The possibly best "solution" for a public server might be an idea =FB=Vaal had a long time ago while the ROF DF mode was being developed, basically every player gets his own "plane set". For example every pilot gets to spawn one Fw190, one G-2 and unlimited numbers of the other planes on the German side.

This way it doesn't matter when somebody joins, you can still make sure there is a certain balance within the plane set and it is equal chances for everyone. Except it is not possible in ROF so I doubt it will be in BOS.

 

That is a really great idea.  

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I'm all for keeping it realistic, and wasn't the Yak-1 and later series the better aircraft then most of the early to mid model 109's with the K4 being the exception?

In a word, no. :biggrin:

 

Bear in mind that many, myself included, people judge the 109 as being outclassed by nothing.

109 really doesn't have any obvious flaw and if you look closely its performance was always up to par with the best of them.

 

Check out the

1.speed

2.maneuverability

3.rate of climb

...and 109 always wins in at least one of those categories versus anything they throw against it in WW2.

 

Effectively meaning you can go both offensive and defensive vs anything.

 

For comparison, LaGG holds neither of these chars vs Bf-109 and in some kind of even match it is expected to lose 10/10 times.

 

Yak-1 vs Bf-109F and G is expected on the other hand to hold a bit of maneuverability advantage meaning it should be a decent opponent and even match could likely be decided by the pilots experience and value.

 

But we will see.

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You can balance by forcing the superior aircraft to fly further to get to where most of the fighting is expected.  That will hopefully result in higher numbers of inferior aircraft in the battle area, thus (hopefully) evening the sides.

 

+1 While I have seen a lot of good ideas on this thread, including the one that Vaal came up with, forcing superior aircraft to travel further is a method that will definitely be viable in BOS. I hope BOS mission builders will try this method out, so we can see if doing so results in a far greater likelihood of persons taking relatively inferior machines from forward airfields, rather than taking superior planes, but having to travel great distances in order to find action. If this technique works, the team can avoid having to expend time and resources to develop new techniques or technologies to solve the same or similar balancing issues.   :salute: MJ

Edited by =69.GIAP=MIKHA

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Firstly, I think any balancing options should be at the server side and there should be LOTS of options. I understand the ROF FMB is pretty good and will be improved for BOS. To which I say, "Hurrah!" 

 

That being said, I'd love to see a large number of servers. Some basic (ie arcade-y dogfight) servers, a majority of historical servers with objectives and a few in-between-ers. I fly a variety of styles depending on how I'm feeling, how much time I have available, and whether my squaddies are online. I love flying in pairs with a dedicated wingman in the tweeners, being a good squad mate in historical servers, and straight up lone wulfing it as a rafter angel in a dogfight server. You can keep your furballs while I BNZ on the periphery or slice up your bombers on the inbound leg.  

 

I used to fully enjoy the occasional jaunt into the AAA server or Skies of Fire with auto-balancing. Met several pilots on the fly who wanted to join up as wingmen and eventually became squad mates in the more hardcore servers. Taught a few and learned many lessons this way.

 

A good mix of servers and styles is what is best for this sim. Let the newest AND the oldest pilots hone their skill sets in a multitude of arenas. Forcing new guys to do CEM and ACM is a recipe for having them walk out in complete frustration on the first release. Let them learn with icons and balancing. Once newbies are lost they are likely to never return. That is revenue and a squaddie/opponent lost, which will be the death of any sim.

 

Fun equals revenue. Multiple, scaleable, filled servers equals fun! Never understood the IT MUST BE THIS or MUST NOT BE THAT crowd.

What is best for the sim is the largest fan base we can acquire. Anything else is short sighted folly.

Edited by HerrMurf
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We need COOPs or something similar so we can have online wars like we did in IL-2, this will bring over a lot of players that want a dynamic fight that lasts weeks.

 

Dogfight servers are all good but COOP games will bring in a whole other audience and let us re-create historical setups. From what I understand though ROF doesn't support that sort of mission model but it would be awesome to have it as an option in the future :biggrin:

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