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III/JG52_Otto_-I-

Interview to real Bf-109 Pilot, about flight behaviour and neutral trim

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Dear friends:
Here is the video Interview to Volker Bau, (Chief test Pilot of the Flugmuseum Messerschmitt) about Bf-109G flight behaviour, and trim configuration,.This interview was performed at ILA 2016 airshow, in Berlin, by some of us..
I think that is very interesting, because he talk about some unknown things about  the Bf-109G, like the interference of the liquid coolers flaps in the longitudinal stability..

 

 

Other interesting thing is the "neutral trim" configuration of the Bf-109 who is better modelled here in the BoS Bf-109G, ..than the DCS:Bf-109K4 wich have not neutral trim at any speed, or any power setting.

Enjoy it !  ;)

Edited by III/JG52_Otto_-I-
  • Upvote 6

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great info nice video...

Tho i must add most of those crashes were not caused by the plane but by putting hitler youth (abused children) into the cockpit with almost no training.
5 hours in a glider than jump in a 109 and die
 

Edited by =WFPK=Sshadow14

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Interesting about how the radiators have such a profound effect on the real aircraft.

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Noncombat losses were staggering for all sides really, and it could vary a lot by theater of operation.

 

For example, the Japanese Army lost fewer planes to non combat reasons than the USAAF did in New Guinea.  The thinking is that the lightly wing loaded IJA aircraft were easier to operate out of the typically bad airfields seen in New Guinea.

 

A more realistic stat would be to evaluate non combat losses as a function of numbers of pilots in service with any particular air force.   I'm guessing that the stats for the 109 would really look terrible taken in that context.

 

That 33% number is also just for one aircraft type, whereas the 40% for the USAAF is an across the board statistic that covers all operations, including flight instruction.

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Wonder what the losses were for the Mig 3 seeing as its about 10 times harder take of and land than the BF109 in the game.

Edited by gnomechompsky

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Tho i must add most of those crashes were not caused by the plane but by putting hitler youth (abused children) into the cockpit with almost no training.

5 hours in a glider than jump in a 109 and die

 

 

:nea:

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Quoting Numbers out of Context can make anything sound Large and Awesome. It's quite an old Propaganda Trick. 

 

A Couple of Factors though: 

  • The 109s were the First Single Seater Fighter most Luftwaffe Pilots would ever get to Fly, normally retired types like 109B-D in WWII and Emils, Friedrichs and Gustavs as time Progressed. Given the Descriptions of some of the Finnish Pilots the Quality of the Training doesn't seem to have been very consistent either with dangerous Landing Techniques being taught.
  • The 109s had a much higher Frequency of Take-Offs and Landings (Mustangs every 5-6 hours or so, 109s about every hour)
  • They got the most Total and Relative Flying Hours given that the B-Grade Fuels were often more readily available than the Higher Grades used by Fw190 and Western Allied Fighters.
  • They Operated in Poorest of Conditions, especially late in the War, from Country Roads in Forests and so on. 
  • The 109s still had the highest Win Ratio of any Fighter. 

 

If you set Airfield Conditions on a Slider from Good to Bad you would Probably Find:

  • German and Japanese would differ only slightly in all operating Conditions. Both 109, 190 and Japanese Army Fighters had good P/W Ratios and very Short Take-Off Runs. 
  • British Fighters (except Hurricane) would Perform Better on well Prepared Airfields, However on the Airfield common the Spitfires Long, Heavy Wings and Short, Far Back, Narrow Undercarriage would cause many Ground Loops and Nose-Overs, as the Russians Learned when they operated them. The Typhoon's weak Tail would be Prone to Damage on Rough Airfields. 
  • American Fighters had the Longest Take-Off Runs of all Nations in WWII and were pretty much universally Plagued with Vertical Stability Issues at Low Speed. The early P-51B-Ds especially, even without the Fuselage Tank could enter quite Nasty Spins in Landing Configuration until the Vertical Stab was modfied on the very late '44 Models. 
  • 5rbcv5h.jpg

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Thx for sharing :good:

Which pretty much justifies why the 109s in IL.2 Battle of... have been by far my preferred renditions of the aircraft...

 

OTOH, the instability during takeoff, requiring careful application of power, and dancing with the feet, is something we do not have so well represented in IL.2 like in the other combat flight sim.... In IL.2 you simply go ahead with your throttle, full or almost full right rudder, and you do not even have to touch the roll axis... it'll almost takeoff by itself...

 

Also taking off with an unlocked tailwheel is simple, when I read and was told for instance by Klaus Plaza that locking the tailwheel on takeoff is really mandatory....

 

Well, none is perfect :-)

Edited by jcomm

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Tho i must add most of those crashes were not caused by the plane but by putting hitler youth (abused children) into the cockpit with almost no training.

5 hours in a glider than jump in a 109 and die

 

It's said that in first two years of war around 1500 Luftwaffe pilots have died in BF 109 training accidents, most in take-off and landings.

 

I guess that by time (40/41) this "5 hours in glide then jump in Bf 109" are not Luftwaffe standard training.  ;)

 

The plane is dangerous - like this interviewed pilot say about take-off.

Edited by Sokol1

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It's said that in first two years of war around 1500 Luftwaffe pilots have died in BF 109 training accidents, most in take-off and landings.

 

I guess that by time (40/41) this "5 hours in glide then jump in Bf 109" are not Luftwaffe standard training.  ;)

 

The plane is dangerous - like this interviewed pilot say about take-off.

Compare that to the Relative Number of Allied Pilots and we have something to compare that to. 

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Dear friends:

Here is the video Interview to Volker Bau, (Chief test Pilot of the Flugmuseum Messerschmitt) about Bf-109G flight behaviour, and trim configuration,.This interview was performed at ILA 2016 airshow, in Berlin, by some of us..

I think that is very interesting, because he talk about some unknown things about  the Bf-109G, like the interference of the liquid coolers flaps in the longitudinal stability..

 

 

Other interesting thing is the "neutral trim" configuration of the Bf-109 who is better modelled here in the BoS Bf-109G, ..than the DCS:Bf-109K4 wich have not neutral trim at any speed, or any power setting.

 

Enjoy it !  ;)

Nice My Friends Otto Supongo and Dario.. :salute: The best fighter in WWII Messerschmitt Bf109.

 

 

Zas en toda la Boca

Edited by =3./JG3=Lothar29

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Thx for sharing :good:

Which pretty much justifies why the 109s in IL.2 Battle of... have been by far my preferred renditions of the aircraft...

 

OTOH, the instability during takeoff, requiring careful application of power, and dancing with the feet, is something we do not have so well represented in IL.2 like in the other combat flight sim.... In IL.2 you simply go ahead with your throttle, full or almost full right rudder, and you do not even have to touch the roll axis... it'll almost takeoff by itself...

 

Also taking off with an unlocked tailwheel is simple, when I read and was told for instance by Klaus Plaza that locking the tailwheel on takeoff is really mandatory....

 

Well, none is perfect :-)

Every day I'm amazed with the things that you said.  :rolleyes:
That thing about "Klaus Plasa and the Tail Wheel Locked" ..is a very, very old topic, that all veteran bf-109 virtual pilots knew. The bf-109 operation manual tell that.
Now i´m amazed because you don´t coment nothing about Volker Bau said of the trim configuration.
Really, Do you watched the whole video?.. :rolleyes: .
Please, see the video again from minute 5:00 and put on the closed captions, in (english or spanish) if you don´t listen well: 
 

https://youtu.be/EDMzZOOIFro?t=4m59s

 

Maybe, ..these things are the things, that you never asked to Klaus Plasa. And like i am telling you in PM´s from years ago, real pilots mistaken the Bf-109 elevator trim indicator, because modern aircraft have trim indication in degrees of nose acctitude, not in degrees of AoA of the stabilizer, like the Bf-109. 

Keep in mind that my comrade, who is asking to Volker in the video is a B737 airline pilot in RL, and Bf-109 virtual pilot, ..and he mistaken a little with trim configuratión for takeoff in the interview, and Volker too, ...

But the final conclusión is that Volker trimmed the "Red-7" nose-up for takeoff, moving the trim wheel in afterward... like I toll you last year  ;)

Edited by III/JG52_Otto_-I-

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Awesome video! From what he is saying, imagine how difficult control would be on landing with having just one radiator flap working. The torque of the huge engine/prop and low airspeed would definitely be handful. Couple that with compensation for adverse roll caused by busted rad flaps...you would definitely have to be on your "A" game if you expect to survive the landing. The way he puts it, even a small amount of asymmetrical deployment causes a fairly drastic amount of adverse roll. I guess all you could try to do is match the setting of the broken flap with the good one to attempt to level it out. But what if both are broken and deployed asymmetrically!? :(

 

He also talks about the power settings and trim. The way he describes the cruise power setting and "almost" being hands off the stick compared to having stronger inputs for higher power settings sounds very consistent with the FM we have in the BoS 109's (great job Devs!). Being one of only a handful of people qualified to fly the 109 he must be a wealth of information, even though he is not putting the airplane through the rigors of combat operation. I'd love to spend just an hour picking his brain!

 

Thanks for sharing this! :good:

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Maybe, ..these things are the things, that you never asked to Klaus Plasa. And like i am telling you in PM´s from years ago, real pilots mistaken the Bf-109 elevator trim indicator, because modern aircraft have trim indication in degrees of nose acctitude, not in degrees of AoA of the stabilizer, like the Bf-109. Keep in mind that my comrade, who is asking to Volker in the video is a B737 airline pilot in RL, and Bf-109 virtual pilot, ..and he mistaken a little with trim configuratión for takeoff in the interview, and Volker too, ... But the final conclusión is that Volker trimmed the "Red-7" nose-up for takeoff, moving the trim wheel in afterward... like I toll you last year

 

Otto, but I did acknowledge that, at the very beginning of my post where I wrote:

 

"Which pretty much justifies why the 109s in IL.2 Battle of... have been by far my preferred renditions of the aircraft..."

 

And of course, why should all of those negative trim settings be there for ?  Using +3 to +4 ( as Klaus told me in one of his emails ) happens during landing ! Yes, that time he used the + / - convention :-)  In IL.2 I sometimes trim the G-2 that way for landing, when I have time to concentrate in the landing...

 

But then again, both simulators secretly involved in this thread are after all examples of excellent flight dynamics modelling, each on it's own, each with their pluses and minuses...  

Edited by jcomm

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Keep in mind that the devs suggested changing the Bf 109's prop characteristics based on new data which supposedly decreases it's efficiency a low airspeed. That should also effect takeoff and landing (prop wash, rudder authority).

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It was funny to watch the confusion about trimming on both sides of the interview participants. At the end the pilot used clever "talk to my lawyer" trick and gave them his business card :D

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I wish interviews like that one were done in a closed building with some spare time. Oh well, still very nice interview. Good job.

 

I just wish there was more. :)

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It was funny to watch the confusion about trimming on both sides of the interview participants. At the end the pilot used clever "talk to my lawyer" trick and gave them his business card :D

 

In my experience talking to pilots at airshows, they have very little patience for flight sim geeks who very often cop an attitude that they know more than the real stick and rudder guy. (Not saying that is the case here).  When I talk to pilots of vintage, or any, aircraft, I rarely mention my flight sim hobby.

 

I'll ask a question or two, but mostly I just listen.  But then I'm a rare flight simmer in that I think pilot accounts are very important, after all they are the real deal, and we, by and large, are the poseurs...

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It was funny to watch the confusion about trimming on both sides of the interview participants. At the end the pilot used clever "talk to my lawyer" trick and gave them his business card :D

No my friend, that's not what happened, ..the problem was that we had 35 questions but Volker had his school, and we had our return flight to Spain in a few minutes.

Finally, We had NO TIME for a our large and detailed interview that we had scheduled, but they have invited us to visit Manching Flugmuseum, and performing a another one better interview too.  ;)

Edited by III/JG52_Otto_-I-
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My opinion is that most of the Soviet plane take off characteristics should be revised in the game!

Most of all the La 5 and the Mig 3 how in 9 on 10 take offs end in ground loop spins due to extreme effects of the side winds on the wings. Even more so if the ratio of side wind is near 1 on 3, problems German planes do not have?

Edited by senseispcc

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